Pump Replacement

[zombielinux]

I've got a 24kGal pool (supposedly. 8' deep end, 3ish' shallow, shaped like a rigid letter J).

I've got a Hayward ???? (looks like a Super Pump) with a 1.5HP motor attached to 230vac. I say ??? because the label is so sunbleached, the model and serial number are gone. Its on the north side of the house, so you can imagine how old it is from that.

I've got a regular sand filter.

I've got an IC-40 salt cell.

And on top of that, I've got a Pentair LA01N booster pump for my pool vacuum. It feeds from the pool return (a single 1.5" line) into its own 1.5" line.

There are two skimmers, that feed back to a single 1.5" inlet, and two floor drains that connect to a single 1.5" inlet. Both feed together through a valve Tee into the single inlet on the main pump.

The booster pump has its own 1.5" line run directly.

There is 11' static head between the bottom of the deep end and the center of the pump inlet. 3' from the waters surface to the same.


The current pump runs 12hrs a day 365/year. The booster runs with the main pump, though I'd rather it didn't. Its currently controlled by a manual switch. My electricity is 10cents/kwh.

I've got two main questions:

1) Would a VS pump net significant enough savings to offset the cost over a reasonable ROI period (2yrs in my case)?
2) Would a VS pump + some valving have the ability to replace both pumps simultaneously with some automation?

As a followup: I am capable of programming my own PLCs and have my IC-40 talking to my home automation system through an RS485 to ethernet bridge and some handwritten javascript. I'm not scared of diy.

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

You current 1.5 HP pump uses $1.80 of electrical a day or $657 a year.

A VS pump can be run on low speed for around $20 - $25/month or $240 - $300/year.

So you have $350 - $400 annually ROI to fund a VS pump.

When your SS pump fails you will need to get a VS pump anyway as SS pumps over 1 HP will be outlawed as of July 2021.

 

[Dirk]

A booster pump is required for your vac. It won't work well, or at all, without it. And a booster pump cannot run a vac without the main pump also running.

I replaced my two-speed pump and booster pump with my IntelliFlo and converted the vac's pressure line to a suction line (by replumbing at the pad). I then replaced my old vac with a Pentair Rebel suction-side vac. Works great for me and my pool. But...

I had trouble optimizing the flow for the vac with the skimmer on the same line. My drains were not active, and I later removed them altogether, but they didn't factor in. I imagine drains could make this issue even worse. I solved the flow problem by automating the three-way valve that balances the skimmer and the vac. So when it's vac time the valve is set to 80 vac-20 skim, and then 0-100 for skimmer operation. That allowed best performance for both vac and skimmer. I leave some flow to the skimmer during my vac runtime, because the suction port for the vac is an open suction port in my pool, and can be considered dangerous under certain conditions. Theoretically, should a human get trapped by the suction port, or the vac for that matter, the 20% would relieve enough of the suction to allow for escape (all untested, just my best guess about this issue). I only run my vac at 4:30am, so that's another level of protection.

Anywho, I got rid of the booster and the new pump has probably paid for itself my now. I sold the old pump for $50. I couldn't give the booster pump away. I sold the old vac, too, but can't now remember for how much.

Others here will recommend a robot rather than mess with a suction-side vac and associated valves and re-plumbing, but I don't like robots and the solution I used works great.

 

[zombielinux]

@Dirk

Right now I've got a Polaris 280.

What did you use to automate the 3-way valve? I was looking to see if I could find a solenoid valve that would work, and just use regular tees to begin with. I suppose I could do the same, but I'm not sure how that performance would work in comparison. We get significant leaf loading in the autumn.

I wonder if automation of the return line in conjunction with the robot would change its efficacy.

I can definitely find use for the old booster in moving relatively clean water around the farm.

@ajw22 Thats about what I was thinking in terms of financial viability. I guess the next question would be, "what are the favored models?". Ideally something with an RS485 interface that I can abuse.

 

[zombielinux]

@Dirk Also, one more thing. We got a variable speed HVAC last summer, and found it had a wicked high pitch frequency (14kHz) that really drove us nuts. Do you know if the VS pumps have a similar noise? We checked and found out with an app called "Spectroid" on android.

 

[ajw22]

@ajw22 Thats about what I was thinking in terms of financial viability. I guess the next question would be, "what are the favored models?". Ideally something with an RS485 interface that I can abuse.

Pentair IntelliFlo 011056

Hacking the IntelliFlo protocol....

Greetings from the mountains in Colombia! entering 3 months of lockdown now, finally can get out of the house more than once a week. In the meantime, I've been developing an automation system for my rainwater system and pool chemistry. See pic I monitor pH, hardness, filter pressure (pool and...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Dirk]

What did you use to automate the 3-way valve? I was looking to see if I could find a solenoid valve that would work, and just use regular tees to begin with. I suppose I could do the same, but I'm not sure how that performance would work in comparison. We get significant leaf loading in the autumn.

I have a typical Jandy three-way valve that balances the skimmer and the vac lines. I bolted a standard actuator to that (I think it's a Pentair brand). The actuator has internal cams that allow you to control the balance (80-20, 0-100, etc). The actuator is controlled by my automation controller, which also sets the optimum pump RPM for each function (skimmer or vac). The automation does something similar for my solar heater, which also has its own actuator. It's all very slick. I don't have to do a thing.

I have a FlowVis flow meter that I use to optimize and monitor the flow for all of my many functions.

I wonder if automation of the return line in conjunction with the robot would change its efficacy.

I'm not sure what you're wondering here. Please clarify. We generally use "vac" or "vacuum" when referring to a cleaner that makes use of pumps, and "robot" when referring to a standalone cleaner that plugs into 120VAC and doesn't need any water flow from any pumps, they're all self-contained.

I can definitely find use for the old booster in moving relatively clean water around the farm.

We might have to ask @mas985 about that. I seem to recall that a typical pool booster pump needs pressurized water at its inlet. It's not ideal, or doesn't work at all, for moving water on its own.

@Dirk Also, one more thing. We got a variable speed HVAC last summer, and found it had a wicked high pitch frequency (14kHz) that really drove us nuts. Do you know if the VS pumps have a similar noise? We checked and found out with an app called "Spectroid" on android.

My IntelliFlo, when running at a good clip, sounds like a pool pump. It doesn't have any high pitch whine that I can here. At full speed they're about as loud as any other pool pump. But dialed down, especially at low RPM, you can barely hear them at all.

 

[zombielinux]

@Dirk

I guess I used the wrong term. Its a supply fed vacuum.

I've seen some threads about people using their main pool pump as a supply for their vacuums (specifically saying "Just buy the 360"), but I've not seen someone that directly connected their pump's output to the dedicated supply line.

I was thinking how to reduce two pumps down to one. Run the VS pump at low and slow nearly 24/7, with a 0/100 VAC/Return split, then run 100/0 at full speed to run the vacuum.

No idea if that would provide enough pressure, but even with the smallest pressure reducing disk I still get the pressure release valve actuating and releasing pressure. I also keep blowing out o-rings on the backup valve for the 280.

 

[ajw22]

The Polaris 360 is made to not require a booster pump. The 280 and 380 do need them. You will get suboptimal movement without the booster pump.

The booster pump does not run through your filter or heater like your main pump and can give the cleaner more flow.

Polaris Pool Cleaners - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[zombielinux]

@ajw22 That doesn't seem to be how mine is plumbed. I have:


In cleaning out the old shed on the property, I found a plastic sprinkler/water feature thing which is what I suspect originally went there. And was repurposed for a vacuum.

It should be trivial to add a jandy valve in place of the PVC Tee and replace the vac with a 360 (the 280 is having its own issues like constantly getting bound up on its umbilical)

 

[ajw22]

There is no equipment restricting the output of your booster pump. The output flow goes directly to your cleaner.

If you want to run without the booster then get the 360.

 

[Dirk]

When I asked my now-fired pool guy to do exactly what you are suggesting, he said the 360 would not vacuum as well as the 280 or the Rebel I ended up with. It made sense to me at the time. Now this was the same guy that did me wrong on several occasions, so there's that. I never used a 360 so I can't compare the three for you. The Rebel (suction-side, no booster) works as well as the 280 did, that's all I can confirm.

You might start a new thread, specifically asking if a Pentair 360 works well, or "Pentair 360 vs Pentair 280, which is best?" or something like that, to seek TFPers that have had experience with both.

 

[ajw22]

380 with booster moves and cleans better then 360 without booster.

Polaris Quattro Sport with booster cleans better then 380...

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www.polarispool.com

 

[zombielinux]

Ah I see what everyone means now. I thought the issue was with the booster pump being connected AFTER the filters/equipment, rather than having its output have to traverse that equipment.

But I think I have the answer. Even replacing the PVC TEE with a jandy valve and giving 100% flow to the 280, a main pump of any sort would be insufficient.

I have to say, I don't have a pool guy, but I've got a background in wastewater treatment (chemistry and controls side). I might have to start that thread.

I might compare them back to back, there are some nearby that are ~$200, and I'm tired of detangling the 280.

 

[Dirk]

280s need to be fined tuned. The tangling might be a symptom. Some say that is cold water. But you have to get the hose length just right, and place the float just so. I think I remember there being adjustments on the unit itself, too. I'm all for you getting rid of the booster, but if this is more about the 280, then there might be other options, including a rebuild.

Even replacing the PVC TEE with a jandy valve and giving 100% flow to the 280, a main pump of any sort would be insufficient.

Correct.

 

[zombielinux]

I'll definitely say the water is cold right now. Its the middle of winter here in the foothills (NW GA).

I know I need to do some adjustment on it, I just haven't had the chance. Maybe this spring I can get it going.

Ultimately, its not about the 280 vs 360, its about reducing power usage. Removing the booster pump would be a big part of that, but ultimately not necessary if I can figure out how to keep water flowing through the booster and pipes from freezing on the 1% of the time its cold enough to do so.

 

[ajw22]

ultimately not necessary if I can figure out how to keep water flowing through the booster and pipes from freezing on the 1% of the time its cold enough to do so.

You don't need a valve at the booster pump input pickoff., If you leave that open then anytime the main pump runs there will be some flow through the booster pump and out the cleaner line. That will prevent freezing when your main pump is running in freeze protection mode.

Your booster pump should be on a timer and the pump runs when you want scheduled cleaning.

 

[zombielinux]

You don't need a valve at the booster pump input pickoff., If you leave that open then anytime the main pump runs there will be some flow through the booster pump and out the cleaner line. That will prevent freezing when your main pump is running in freeze protection mode.

Your booster pump should be on a timer and the pump runs when you want scheduled cleaning.

Well then that's happening in the next week. Because this manual switch nonsense has to stop.

 

[Dirk]

Well, lots of ways to go here, here's another: how my original gear was set up. A two timer controller ($200 at Home Depot). One timer for the main pump. The second timer for the booster pump. They were wired such that the booster pump would not receive power (even if called for by the booster timer), unless the main pump timer was energizing the main pump. That keeps the booster from burning itself out by running without water from the main pump.

12 hours of runtime is likely way more than is needed, and certainly 12 hours of booster runtime is. Your cleaner would likely do a fine job somewhere around 1.5-2 hours.

The main pump only needs to run long enough to keep your water clear and to generate chlorine. That's it. That might be just a few hours, especially in winter.

Even before you explore the timer idea, reduce your runtime to 3 hours and see what happens. Pool still clear? Bottom clean? You just cut your energy costs by 75%!

Then try 2 hours. Or if the pool is not to your aesthetic liking, go to 4 hours. You can try those this week. If you later add the timer, you can go 3 hours main pump and 1.5 hours booster pump.

Now you'll need to keep an eye on FC. But goose your IC to 100% and see if 3 hours keeps your FC up. If not, you'll need to bump up the runtime. The IC will likely govern the runtime, but again, with the two-timer controller you can run your main pump for as much time as your IC needs, but limit the booster to 1.5 hours.

There's a lot of loose change hiding in your setup, you just gotta go find it...