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[dailygenesis]

The water in the pipes will drain down to the level of the pool (that would be a few inches in my case).

My equipment sits lower than the pool water level. I never actually measured it until now -- just went out with the My Altitude app and looks like it's about 1.5 feet lower at the pump than the top of the pool water. I assume this would change things for me with regards to your method?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

My equipment sits lower than the pool water level. I never actually measured it until now -- just went out with the My Altitude app and looks like it's about 1.5 feet lower at the pump than the top of the pool water. I assume this would change things for me with regards to your method?

And that’s what @ajw22 was talking about in not being able to give generic advice - every pool has its own unique needs.

If your equipment is that much lower then, yes, you cannot drain your system as the pool will empty. An equipment pad that low needs to be mindful of drainage. You’d have to plug up the skimmer and returns and you should have a manual shutoff valve for the main drain to keep the water in. Then you can drain the equipment. In your situation, you want to try to “air lock” your main drain line using an air blower and a shut off valve. If the builder did not make it easy to close your pool, then you’d need to do some strategic plumbing upgrades to make it so.

 

[dailygenesis]

And that’s what @ajw22 was talking about in not being able to give generic advice - every pool has its own unique needs.

If your equipment is that much lower then, yes, you cannot drain your system as the pool will empty. An equipment pad that low needs to be mindful of drainage. You’d have to plug up the skimmer and returns and you should have a manual shutoff valve for the main drain to keep the water in. Then you can drain the equipment. In your situation, you want to try to “air lock” your main drain line using an air blower and a shut off valve. If the builder did not make it easy to close your pool, then you’d need to do some strategic plumbing upgrades to make it so.

Now that I’m thinking about all of this, I’m not sure whether my equipment is above or below grade. It seems below and when I measured with the altimeter it was below, but it sure doesn’t behave like what you’re saying it should do if it were below. For example, when I turn off the system and empty the pump filter basket, the water in the pump moves back out of the basket towards the pool. When I turn the pump back on it has to prime itself a while to get going. It seems if it were really below grade the water would just be overflowing the pump basket the whole time when I open it up, right? Is there a sure fire way to know if your equipment is below grade?

 

[Texas Splash]

when I turn off the system and empty the pump filter basket, the water in the pump moves back out of the basket towards the pool.

Ideally the pump pot remains full when the system is off unless there is an air leak somewhere at the pad that is allowing the water to move (like a broken straw). There could be exceptions, like extreme elevation differences, but yours sounds fairly level. The pool-to-pad are at similar elevations or fairly close. I'm assuming you do not have a check valve before the pump? You are correct though, if your pad was lower than the pool waterline, water would/should rush to the pad when you open the pump lid. That's why above ground pools prime much easier.

 

[mas985]

If you remove the pump lid and water drains from the pump, the pump is above water level.

 

[dailygenesis]

Ideally the pump pot remains full when the system is off unless there is an air leak somewhere at the pad that is allowing the water to move (like a broken straw).

Yes, it remains full when the system is off as long as I don't remove the pump lid.

I'm assuming you do not have a check valve before the pump? You are correct though, if your pad was lower than the pool waterline, water would/should rush to the pad when you open the pump lid.

No check valve on the suction side that I can see. Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

If you remove the pump lid and water drains from the pump, the pump is above water level.

Thanks for the confirmation. This is exactly what happens. I guess the pump is above water level after all.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Since your pump and plumbing is above the water line then I would simply suggest that you drain the equipment pad when there is a hard freeze (anything below 26F) predicted for more than a few hours overnight. If the weather map shows days worth of sub-freezing temps, even if the day time temps gets near freezing, then just drain the equipment and put a weighted empty milk jug in the skimmer(s). You can leave the pool like that for several days or even a week especially if you raise the FC to half the normal SLAM level. And it will save you a lot of stress and anxiety.

That’s what I would do if I were in your situation. Here in Tucson we typically only get hard freezes overnight lasting maybe 8 hours at most. That’s short enough that the pumps freeze protect mode as well as a tarp and heat lamp will be sufficient.

 

[dailygenesis]

Since your pump and plumbing is above the water line then I would simply suggest that you drain the equipment pad when there is a hard freeze (anything below 26F) predicted for more than a few hours overnight. If the weather map shows days worth of sub-freezing temps, even if the day time temps gets near freezing, then just drain the equipment and put a weighted empty milk jug in the skimmer(s). You can leave the pool like that for several days or even a week especially if you raise the FC to half the normal SLAM level. And it will save you a lot of stress and anxiety.

That’s what I would do if I were in your situation. Here in Tucson we typically only get hard freezes overnight lasting maybe 8 hours at most. That’s short enough that the pumps freeze protect mode as well as a tarp and heat lamp will be sufficient.

Thanks, this is along the lines of what I'm thinking, but a couple of further questions:

1. If we're looking at an extended period of freezing, should I drain the water below the tile line? Below the returns? Or leave as is? I'm wondering what happens if the top of the pool freezes solid.
2. If I open up all the valves then, because I have a raised spa, I am assuming the spa water line will drain down to even with the pool water line. This will possibly be below the returns/jets in the spa. Is there any issue with this? The alternative would be to leave the suction valve set to close off the spa but I assume this might be prone to more freezing in the spa drain line.

 

[ajw22]

Thanks, this is along the lines of what I'm thinking, but a couple of further questions:

1. If we're looking at an extended period of freezing, should I drain the water below the tile line? Below the returns? Or leave as is? I'm wondering what happens if the top of the pool freezes solid.

From post #8...

For plaster pools you need to drain down below the tile line so that ice does not loosen or pop off tiles.

Once the water level is below the tile line and not right on any steps or ledges you are fine. Let the ice form then melt. That is what happens with all the closed pools here in the North.

 

[Bperry]

Thanks, this is along the lines of what I'm thinking, but a couple of further questions:

1. If we're looking at an extended period of freezing, should I drain the water below the tile line? Below the returns? Or leave as is? I'm wondering what happens if the top of the pool freezes solid.
2. If I open up all the valves then, because I have a raised spa, I am assuming the spa water line will drain down to even with the pool water line. This will possibly be below the returns/jets in the spa. Is there any issue with this? The alternative would be to leave the suction valve set to close off the spa but I assume this might be prone to more freezing in the spa drain line.

My pool water froze solid almost 2” (and is still thawing today) but I winterized the pool a month ago. Just drain it below the tile line and it’ll be fine. I didn’t even cover mine this year.

I’d second what ajw22 said, just winterize it ahead of time and open back up when the weather starts to warm up. No way I want to stick my arms in the freezing water trying to install plugs on the returns, so I did it in November. No one will be swimming before March.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I would be a bit more cautious about draining down. If you get too close to a step ledge, you could cause damage to the plaster covering the step. This has been documented on TFP in the past where people drained plaster pools too close to a step ledge and the plaster was destroyed because it froze. In the case of the OP, I sincerely doubt a thick enough sheet of ice would form to encase the pool surface. Even then, just take a broom handle and break it up. I'd much rather have the tile in contact with water than exposed. Texas isn't New Jersey so the same rules don't apply. It's going to be some trial and error and honestly its way easier and cheaper to fix a popped tile then it is to replaster a pool surface.

 

[dailygenesis]

Thanks to everyone for all the great feedback. This is tremendously helpful as I'm thinking through a game plan for the next freeze. I apologize if I'm asking the same questions over and over different ways but just trying to make sure I understand.

I would be a bit more cautious about draining down. If you get too close to a step ledge, you could cause damage to the plaster covering the step. This has been documented on TFP in the past where people drained plaster pools too close to a step ledge and the plaster was destroyed because it froze. In the case of the OP, I sincerely doubt a thick enough sheet of ice would form to encase the pool surface. Even then, just take a broom handle and break it up. I'd much rather have the tile in contact with water than exposed. Texas isn't New Jersey so the same rules don't apply. It's going to be some trial and error and honestly its way easier and cheaper to fix a popped tile then it is to replaster a pool surface.

This is my concern as well. If I drain the pool down to right below the tile line, it will be just an inch or so (at most) above the most shallow step in our pool (which is the largest surface-area ledge). If I did want to drain it, would it be better to go down low enough to where the top of that step is exposed to the air and there is a little more room between the top of the water and the top of the second step? And what about lights and returns -- should I try to keep those underwater or exposed or does it matter?

The same issue applies in the spa where I am still trying to figure out how I would deal with that because if I open the spa drain valve the spa will likely drain down to the pool water level which will put it either right above the spa bench or maybe slightly below it.

I'll try to search around the forum more for info on this but if anyone has any thoughts I appreciate all the help I can get.

 

[dailygenesis]

Once the water level is below the tile line and not right on any steps or ledges you are fine. Let the ice form then melt. That is what happens with all the closed pools here in the North.

By "not right on any steps or ledges" do you just mean keep the water level more than an inch or so above the top of any step or ledge?

 

[dailygenesis]

just winterize it ahead of time and open back up when the weather starts to warm up.

I would do this if it weren't for the spa. We would like to use it in the winter. We used it last night in fact and it was great. Might fire it up again tonight. I hate to give all that up if I can avoid it. I do realize there's more risk in it so just trying to explore different options to mitigate. If I can't find a good solution, we might just close up.

 

[Bperry]

I would do this if it weren't for the spa. We would like to use it in the winter. We used it last night in fact and it was great. Might fire it up again tonight. I hate to give all that up if I can avoid it. I do realize there's more risk in it so just trying to explore different options to mitigate. If I can't find a good solution, we might just close up.

Ah, do you have a way to separate the spa portion from the rest of the pool? Having a separate setup might be an option to keep the spa running until there’s an extreme forecast like last week and then quickly drain stuff and clear the spa pipes. Spa pipes should be easier to purge than deep pool drain?

 

[ajw22]

By "not right on any steps or ledges" do you just mean keep the water level more than an inch or so above the top of any step or ledge?

Yes, a half inch or so above any horizontal surface.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

If you have a raised spa then there should have been check valves installed on the return lines to avoid draining.

What you should do when it gets to a warm spell in the weather forecast is plan to drain your equipment pad (pumps, filter and heater) and if you have an SWG, you can remove that as well. Set your pump intake valve and pool/spa return valve to a position that is both sides open and pull the cover off any serviceable check valve at the equipment pad. Then watch what happens to the pool and spa. That way, you will have done a dry run and you can see what kind of water levels you get.

 

[dailygenesis]

If you have a raised spa then there should have been check valves installed on the return lines to avoid draining.

Yes this is correct on the return side. No check valve on the suction side from the spa drain, though.

Here's something I have been thinking. If I could get the equipment necessary to blow out and air lock the spa drain, this would be handy for me to do in advance of any severe cold snap. It would:

1. Allow me to run my system just in "pool mode" while in freeze protect (pool mode sends half the returns to spa and half to pool to create spillover -- I don't have a separate spillover control). When in "pool mode" the only pipe with water not moving is the spa drain so blowing that out would solve this issue.
2. In the event I need to shut down and drain the system, having the spa drain air locked means I don't need to open that pipe. This would prevent the spa draining all the way down to pool water level. However, if I open the check valve on the spa returns it would still drain down but only until it got just below the spa jets, which would be an ok level, I think (still well above the spa bench).

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Bperry]

However, if I open the check valve on the spa returns it would still drain down but only until it got just below the spa jets, which would be an ok level, I think (still well above the spa bench).
Any thoughts on this?

So no water actually touching the jets when there’s a chance of it freezing?

 

[ajw22]

The best blower for pools is...

Air Supply – Cyclone Pro

www.airsupplyflorida.com