Poor man's IntelliChem

[TexEdmond]

EDIT: Read thru this thread first before building anything resembling my first prototype... there's better and safer options.

I've been putting so much muriatic acid in the pool lately, I decided to get lazy. I was using a 20oz "gatorade type" sports drink bottle to measure out and slowly pour the acid into the pool... but I realize one of the reasons why I wasn't getting pH down to 7.2 or even 7.0 every time is the bottle is 20oz all the way up to the mouth, and I wasn't filling it up far enough. And there wasn't a really safe way to do that, so I created this lil' guy. This gives me steady slow pours and I can step away out of the poison steam cloud and drink whiskey while dosing the pool instead of coughing and holding my breath and putting more arthritis into my knees. My pool doesn't have an actual "return" because it's got in-floor cleaners, so I turn the RPMs up and open this skimmer's venturi and close its suction valve. Bonus effect is the floor cleaners cycle through a few times while pouring, so there's a good distribution of chemical in addition to the venturi stream.

Materials:

1 - empty acid jug with bottom cut out
1 - plastic tubing
1 - jug lid with drilled hole for friction fit of plastic tubing
1 - redneck engineered holder base thingy
1 - redneck engineered coat hanger tube support thingy with magnetic alligator clip
1 - large clamp (hidden) to restrict flow while filling jug with correct amount of acid

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Why do you target the pH that low? The lower you drop the pH, the faster the rate of rise in pH. Anything lower than a pH of 7.5 won’t last more than 24 hours. If you want to lessen the frequency of acid additions, keep your TA lower (~ 50ppm) and then target your pH to be between 7.6 to 7.8. Do not add acid unless your pH is above 7.8 and only add enough MA to lower it to 7.6. Also, consider adding borates to the water to slow the pH rise down.

 

[mknauss]

I was using a 20oz sports drink bottle to measure out and slowly pour the acid into the pool...

Never use a container designed for human consumption for hazardous chemicals. Bad outcomes can occur.

 

[TexEdmond]

Why do you target the pH that low?

Because my fill water is 230 TA and I'm trying to do this:

keep your TA lower (~ 50ppm)

And the website tells me to do this:

"Use muriatic acid to drop the pH to 7.0-7.2 and aerate to bring pH back up."

I'm tired of putting 80 oz of MA in the pool every 72 hours and want to get where other users are with "I don't have to add MA except every other week"

Should I get the borax in the pool sooner? I thought step one for that was getting the TA down.

Never use a container designed for human consumption for hazardous chemicals. Bad outcomes can occur.

It was plastic and seemed more accurate than just glugging the jug out of the jughole. I'm certainly not gonna use the kitchen Pyrex; how else does everybody actually measure and pour 80 fluid ounces out of an opaque jug with a steaming cloud of poison gas coming from it?

For clarity, I mean I was using a clear Gatorade type jug, probably PET, not a nalgene bottle. It stays with the chemicals and I don't drink out of it. I might be ignorant, but I ain't stupid.

 

[TexEdmond]

Do not add acid unless your pH is above 7.8 and only add enough MA to lower it to 7.6.

I definitely follow the first part of this sentence, and this website DEFINITELY doesn't say to do the second part of this sentence.

 

[mknauss]

Plastic measure cups if you must measure. If doing a quart or more at a time, just pour out of the jug.

 

[TexEdmond]

For clarity

Bhaaahahaha! No pun intended. Ysee, because I'm adding acid ... For clarity?

 

[TexEdmond]

If doing a quart or more at a time, just pour out of the jug.

Honest question: the only accurate measurement I can estimate pouring out of a one gal jug is approximately one gallon. Do you pour by weight? Put sharpie marks on the side?

 

[mknauss]

Adding to a 25000 gallon pool, your measurements do not need to be all that precise. Use an empty jug and water to practice how long to pour for an approximate volume. Or if you can see the liquid through the jug (the acid I get is in clear jugs), mark the outside the jug. Keep an empty one that you measured into with water and marked every 16 or 32 oz.

Again, your volume pool, whether you add 26 or 32 oz of acid, will have minimal effect on your pH. You should never be targeting below 7.2. Preferably 7.6. TA will drop over time. No real need to focus on lowering it quickly.

 

[TexEdmond]

I feel like the kid in this PSA... Watched the pH / Alkalinity symposium and the two main dudes are asking me "Why'd you do that?"

 

[TexEdmond]

Adding to a 25000 gallon pool, your measurements do not need to be all that precise.

I can confirm this.

Again, your volume pool, whether you add 26 or 32 oz of acid, will have minimal effect on your pH

That's part of the problem I'm experiencing.

You should never be targeting below 7.2.

Maybe the website and pool math app needs amended? The good news is because of the error in my dosing with the 20oz gatorade bottle, I was likely around 10% low on those pours I logged, so I probably never got to 7.2 much less 7.0.

TA will drop over time.

I'm not seeing this with my test results. Is it time for borates and call it good at 70-80ppm?

No real need to focus on lowering it quickly

That's the deal, I'm really not trying to lower it quickly. I'm trying to get it to move at all, net of refilling a few hundred gallons occasionally with fill water 200+ TA

My situation is I'm not wanting to add 60-80oz of MA a few times a week just to keep my CSI in the slightly negative zone. That's why I was considering raising CH and possibly borates to keep things sortof "pinched" in place with my TA and pH issue always wanting to creep upwards.

 

[TexEdmond]

Maybe I just answered my own question?

 

[kimkats]

Matt and Marty ARE two of the heavy hitters for sure! They only have the best interest of the people and pool in mind. Knowing you are working on the high TA is very helpful info.

I like your set up and it can work. One thing about lowering TA is to hit it and hit it hard. Push the pH down to 7.2 with the acid THEN push it back to 7.8 as fast as you can. If you have any features on the pool turn them all on! Roll the returns so they break the surface of the water. Throw some kids in the really make it happen fast LOL

 

[TexEdmond]

I like your set up and it can work.

It did work! This discussion has helped me think about version 2.0 of the "tube thru the lid" life hack... a second tube to break the vapor lock on a new bottle of MA, then I can just take the lid off and rinse it and put the intact lid back on the acid bottle. I'll build that one next time.

One thing about lowering TA is to hit it and hit it hard. Push the pH down to 7.2 with the acid THEN push it back to 7.8 as fast as you can.

This has been my intention every time I've done it. FWIW the heater is bypassed right now and the salt cell is still running.

If you have any features on the pool turn them all on!

I've got the pump running 2500rpm, 60+GPM with the sun shelf bubbler and spa waterfall running. Sun shelf bubbler ran all night on low RPM (the pump is 2 feet from our bedroom window)

Roll the returns so they break the surface of the water.

Previous owners allowed themselves to be talked into venturi floor cleaning system, so no dice there. Spa bubbler blower quit working and haven't had a chance to troubleshoot.

Throw some kids in the really make it happen fast

I'm not sure that'd be a good idea knocking on my new neighbors' door asking if their three teenage daughters want to come swim in my pool instead of theirs... on account of we don't have any kids ourselves that might look... inappropriate... Maybe I should invite his wife over, too? Hmmm... Nah I think I'll just leave the features running.

Matt and Marty ARE two of the heavy hitters for sure! They only have the best interest of the people and pool in mind.

I know! That's why I'm freaking out so much doing what's suggested here then getting piled on because it feels like somebody's telling me I did it wrong after very carefully trying to do it right!

 

[mknauss]

I would suggest an acid resistant container to place this in. If this fails in any way, your deck will be destroyed in that area.

 

[TexEdmond]

I would suggest an acid resistant container to place this in. If this fails in any way, your deck will be destroyed in that area.

Good idea. I had the presence of mind to bring the garden hose over and ready with a sprayer nozzle in case of spillage. Safety first! Version 2.0 will be much safer because I won't have to deal with open jugs offgassing. Or spilling if it knocks over.

I first got the idea from an olive oil pour spout. Or all those years as a bartender?

 

[TexEdmond]

Ooh. Wait. Safety first mindset leads me here. Just siphon the acid out of an upright, stable jug. Can pre-mark levels on the side of the jug and put a bright light behind. This should be the minimal vapor option, especially if the siphon tube is placed into the venturi return stream below.

 

[kimkats]

FWIW the heater is bypassed right now and the salt cell is still running.

Well done! Don't want to cause any hard to any of your equipment!

I've got the pump running 2500rpm, 60+GPM with the sun shelf bubbler and spa waterfall running. Sun shelf bubbler ran all night on low RPM (the pump is 2 feet from our bedroom window)

SWEET! I bet that does push it up and fast! Nice job!

Hmmm... Nah I think I'll just leave the features running.

LOL yeah that might be the best way to do!

That's why I'm freaking out so much doing what's suggested here then getting piled on because it feels like somebody's telling me I did it wrong after very carefully trying to do it right!

Take a step back and see if from their eyes. They did not know you were working on your high TA so thought this might be a permeant set up. Then using a "drinking" bottle to put the acid in. Remember this is an open board that MANY people read. So even if we know YOU won't drink out of it we will say what is best practices to keep anyone else from harm down the road.

Keep learning and sharing what you learn. Others can learn from you!!

 

[Newdude]

Put sharpie marks on the side?

Sharpie marks are a great way to eyeball it.

 

[TexEdmond]

Take a step back and see if from their eyes. They did not know you were working on your high TA so thought this might be a permeant set up. Then using a "drinking" bottle to put the acid in. Remember this is an open board that MANY people read. So even if we know YOU won't drink out of it we will say what is best practices to keep anyone else from harm down the road.

Thanks for that. I try my best to qualify the things I do as my experience and help myself and others make informed choices.

My dad always says, "Nobody ever learned anything by doing it right the first time."

I was mostly tired of kneeling for extended periods on the pointy coping, juggling two bottles of acid 20oz at a time, while trying not to get too much acid in my sinuses or lungs. That was the first iteration on making this thing easier and safer. At the time it was the best I could do with the knowledge I had, and I give myself permission to let "good enough be good enough," for now, while making progress towards a little bit better tomorrow. I suppose I can say the same with my pool chemistry itself as well as my approach to managing the chemistry.