- May 3, 2014
- 62,729
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Pool Refill Procedure
- Thread starter Hanstb
- Start date
Thank you Marty!
I won't have time today to aerate the pool and add MA throughout the day, but I can add a measured amount to bring the pH down to 7.0 (or any other value) before I leave the house, will that help? Is it safe to drop the pH to 7.0 and just let it drift up on its own? I can adjust the pH down much faster than the IntelliChem pump, no one would enter the pool, so that is not a concern. I have plenty of MA on hand.
I won't have time today to aerate the pool and add MA throughout the day, but I can add a measured amount to bring the pH down to 7.0 (or any other value) before I leave the house, will that help? Is it safe to drop the pH to 7.0 and just let it drift up on its own? I can adjust the pH down much faster than the IntelliChem pump, no one would enter the pool, so that is not a concern. I have plenty of MA on hand.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,668
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Ha, Marty has had to talk me off the high-TA ledge more than once! Especially when I first came to TFP. I can now reluctantly admit that my high TA did not, if fact, destroy the universe and all life as we know it, as I once feared! 
Regarding the FC, you're down there in crazy pool land where winter is summer and summer is winter and people swim all year long! Sure, you could have used up 1ppm legit. If the mood strikes, you could always do an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test to rule out any possible issue before it becomes one. It's not all that much trouble.
Regarding the FC, you're down there in crazy pool land where winter is summer and summer is winter and people swim all year long! Sure, you could have used up 1ppm legit. If the mood strikes, you could always do an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test to rule out any possible issue before it becomes one. It's not all that much trouble.
Dirk,
I will do a OCLT tonight, I would like to know the precise FC loss. I am also trying to dial in my SWCG now that it is no longer controlled by the IntelliChem and ORP, I am using the SWGCalculator Spreadsheet I found here on TFP as a guide, seems to be spot on so far, but I need to hone the FC demand figure.
Your are right about our pool season, it's all year long, the heat pump all but eliminates our 5 minutes of winter...
I will do a OCLT tonight, I would like to know the precise FC loss. I am also trying to dial in my SWCG now that it is no longer controlled by the IntelliChem and ORP, I am using the SWGCalculator Spreadsheet I found here on TFP as a guide, seems to be spot on so far, but I need to hone the FC demand figure.
Your are right about our pool season, it's all year long, the heat pump all but eliminates our 5 minutes of winter...
- May 3, 2014
- 62,729
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Ok, I added the prescribed amount of MA (88 fl oz) to bring the pH down to 7.2, as it rises throughout the day, the Intellichem should correct it back to 7.2 (as low as the Intellichem settings allow), I'll test this evening and see where it's at.
I am planning another aeration session tomorrow morning, with an early start, I should be able to keep it going for about 4 hours before I have to leave, I'll repeat the procedure on the days that I can to speed the process along.
I have the solar collectors and heaters bypassed until I get the water chemistry where it needs to be, I did flush the lines with fresh pool water for a few hours after we filled the pool to get any residual water out of the lines and fill the pipes with clean, chlorinated water, I did that again today before adding the MA.
I am planning another aeration session tomorrow morning, with an early start, I should be able to keep it going for about 4 hours before I have to leave, I'll repeat the procedure on the days that I can to speed the process along.
I have the solar collectors and heaters bypassed until I get the water chemistry where it needs to be, I did flush the lines with fresh pool water for a few hours after we filled the pool to get any residual water out of the lines and fill the pipes with clean, chlorinated water, I did that again today before adding the MA.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,668
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Your solar panels should be in use or empty. Not bypassed and full of water.
When you say "but I need to hone the FC demand figure," are you referring to doing so for the spreadsheet, or for your pool? The spreadsheet is just a "where to start" guide. You fine tune the SWG output setting based on the FC in your pool, not the spreadsheet.
Here's how I did it:
I determined my target FC level for my pool, using the [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA].
I took my best guess at an output setting for my SWG. I used 50% to start (use the spreadsheet if you like). I let it run for a day. I tested my FC just after sunset (no more burn off to the sun).
If the FC was low, I reset it to target level using liquid chlorine, and then upped my SWG output setting a point or two or five, depending on how far off I was on the FC.
I repeated this process until the FC level stabilized. The trick is to test the FC at the same time each day.
I did not try to adjust the SWG output to move the FC level. I moved it with liquid chlorine. I only adjusted the SWG to maintain the FC, after I established the target level with liquid chlorine. If you you try to move the FC level with the SWG alone, while simultaneously trying to establish what output setting to use, you'll get into this game of yo-yo with the thing and it'll take much longer. If your bather load is stable (nobody swimming is ideal, but not necessary), it'll go a little quicker.
If the FC is high after a day of SWG, you turn off the SWG and let the FC return to target level. Turn down the SWG output setting a few notches and start again.
With my seasons, I have to do this several times a year...
When you say "but I need to hone the FC demand figure," are you referring to doing so for the spreadsheet, or for your pool? The spreadsheet is just a "where to start" guide. You fine tune the SWG output setting based on the FC in your pool, not the spreadsheet.
Here's how I did it:
I determined my target FC level for my pool, using the [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA].
I took my best guess at an output setting for my SWG. I used 50% to start (use the spreadsheet if you like). I let it run for a day. I tested my FC just after sunset (no more burn off to the sun).
If the FC was low, I reset it to target level using liquid chlorine, and then upped my SWG output setting a point or two or five, depending on how far off I was on the FC.
I repeated this process until the FC level stabilized. The trick is to test the FC at the same time each day.
I did not try to adjust the SWG output to move the FC level. I moved it with liquid chlorine. I only adjusted the SWG to maintain the FC, after I established the target level with liquid chlorine. If you you try to move the FC level with the SWG alone, while simultaneously trying to establish what output setting to use, you'll get into this game of yo-yo with the thing and it'll take much longer. If your bather load is stable (nobody swimming is ideal, but not necessary), it'll go a little quicker.
If the FC is high after a day of SWG, you turn off the SWG and let the FC return to target level. Turn down the SWG output setting a few notches and start again.
With my seasons, I have to do this several times a year...
Dirk,
My solar system is closed loop, the evacuated tube array never sees pool water (it's filled with propylene glycol), the system integrates the pool and the domestic hot water system through a pair of heat exchangers, the controller prioritizes the domestic hot water and after a set point is reached begins rejecting heat from the tank to the pool, thank you for raising the caution flag, I appreciate the advice!
I like the approach you describe for setting the target SWCG output, I will follow your advice. Pool is off limits to swimmers until I get the water balanced, then I will only have the bather load as a variable and can compensate for that on the go.
I really appreciate all the advice, please keep it coming!
My solar system is closed loop, the evacuated tube array never sees pool water (it's filled with propylene glycol), the system integrates the pool and the domestic hot water system through a pair of heat exchangers, the controller prioritizes the domestic hot water and after a set point is reached begins rejecting heat from the tank to the pool, thank you for raising the caution flag, I appreciate the advice!
I like the approach you describe for setting the target SWCG output, I will follow your advice. Pool is off limits to swimmers until I get the water balanced, then I will only have the bather load as a variable and can compensate for that on the go.
I really appreciate all the advice, please keep it coming!
On another note, how do you go about finding the ideal flow and pump run time to match your SWCG needs, cleaning load and energy consumption? I have a very clean yard, very little debris makes it into the pool.
My initial thought was to run the pump as low as practicable to meet the minimum flow requirements of the SWCG (1100 rpm in my case, I have ordered a flow meter but it's not installed yet) then run the cell at 80% and adjust the pump run time to meet the chlorine demand, is there a more efficient way?
Thanks!
My initial thought was to run the pump as low as practicable to meet the minimum flow requirements of the SWCG (1100 rpm in my case, I have ordered a flow meter but it's not installed yet) then run the cell at 80% and adjust the pump run time to meet the chlorine demand, is there a more efficient way?
Thanks!
- May 3, 2014
- 62,729
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Pump run time is purely based on your pool. With little debris you can get away with little pump run time. Or you can run it 24 hours a day. Your choice.
Start with your idea above and see how it works. I am amazed you can get to 1100 rpm with a heater. My minimum is 1600 rpm.
Start with your idea above and see how it works. I am amazed you can get to 1100 rpm with a heater. My minimum is 1600 rpm.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,668
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I use a Twister spinner. I assign times and RPMs a color, then just spin. Each season, I spin again! 
Might as well. It's all trial and error. Your plan is a good starting point. Adjust accordingly. I just try to balance how clean I want my pool with how much I want to spend on electricity. Your SWG has a lifespan, it is a consumable product. But it's the same consumption if you go 80% for 6 hours or 40% for 12. So see how little you can run the pump (time and RPM) to keep it clean to your standards, then see if you can run the SWG enough within that time frame. If not, then the SWG determines the runtime.
But here's a contradicting consideration. I am of the school of thought that likes to run their SWG lower than I could, so that it dispenses longer throughout the day, as chlorine is being consumed. I don't want my SWG to dump in a bunch in a few hours, which would require a higher target FC, so that the pool had enough chlorine to last the rest of the day. I want my FC level to be static, or as close as possible, all 24 hours. But I also don't want to mess with PG&E! (There are many variables). So I start my pump/SWG run at sunrise (when the sun starts to affect FC level), and run it until 3:00PM, when PG&E's rates increase. I also have to factor in solar. Since my solar has to run all day to heat my pool, in swim season that is the determining factor for runtime. (But I shut that down at 3:00PM, too!)
Now that solar/swim season is over, I'm just dialing down my runtime as I head into winter. That affects SWG and acid dosing together, as well as filtering. But with no bather load, that reduction of all three: filtering, sanitation and acid dosing, is working just fine. I'll keep dialing down runtime until I either see too much crud in the water, or my FC or pH level get out of range. I'm recording all my adjustments (what and when) so I'll have a guide to go on. This is my first year with SWG, IntellipH and a new pool surface, so I'm in much the same boat as you, figuring it out as I go along.
Like I said, it's all trial and error, there is no rule that covers all pools, each one is different.
Might as well. It's all trial and error. Your plan is a good starting point. Adjust accordingly. I just try to balance how clean I want my pool with how much I want to spend on electricity. Your SWG has a lifespan, it is a consumable product. But it's the same consumption if you go 80% for 6 hours or 40% for 12. So see how little you can run the pump (time and RPM) to keep it clean to your standards, then see if you can run the SWG enough within that time frame. If not, then the SWG determines the runtime.
But here's a contradicting consideration. I am of the school of thought that likes to run their SWG lower than I could, so that it dispenses longer throughout the day, as chlorine is being consumed. I don't want my SWG to dump in a bunch in a few hours, which would require a higher target FC, so that the pool had enough chlorine to last the rest of the day. I want my FC level to be static, or as close as possible, all 24 hours. But I also don't want to mess with PG&E! (There are many variables). So I start my pump/SWG run at sunrise (when the sun starts to affect FC level), and run it until 3:00PM, when PG&E's rates increase. I also have to factor in solar. Since my solar has to run all day to heat my pool, in swim season that is the determining factor for runtime. (But I shut that down at 3:00PM, too!)
Now that solar/swim season is over, I'm just dialing down my runtime as I head into winter. That affects SWG and acid dosing together, as well as filtering. But with no bather load, that reduction of all three: filtering, sanitation and acid dosing, is working just fine. I'll keep dialing down runtime until I either see too much crud in the water, or my FC or pH level get out of range. I'm recording all my adjustments (what and when) so I'll have a guide to go on. This is my first year with SWG, IntellipH and a new pool surface, so I'm in much the same boat as you, figuring it out as I go along.
Like I said, it's all trial and error, there is no rule that covers all pools, each one is different.
Marty,
When the either heater is called on, the pump goes to 1850 rpm automatically, this is part of IntelliTouch programming. The SWCG and the IntelliChem are Ok with 1100rpm so long as the heaters are in bypass, the additional head when water is passing through the heaters drops the flow below minimum for the SWCG. The valves are motorized, so this can all be handled by programing the intellitouch.
At 1100 rpm my pump only draws 153 watts, 1850 takes the draw up to 485 if memory serves.
The pool is kept open year around, and the solar heater (which works well at any rpm) does a good job of taking the chill out of the water, gas boiler and heat pump use is occasional, and at those times, we are not as concerned with efficiency.
When the either heater is called on, the pump goes to 1850 rpm automatically, this is part of IntelliTouch programming. The SWCG and the IntelliChem are Ok with 1100rpm so long as the heaters are in bypass, the additional head when water is passing through the heaters drops the flow below minimum for the SWCG. The valves are motorized, so this can all be handled by programing the intellitouch.
At 1100 rpm my pump only draws 153 watts, 1850 takes the draw up to 485 if memory serves.
The pool is kept open year around, and the solar heater (which works well at any rpm) does a good job of taking the chill out of the water, gas boiler and heat pump use is occasional, and at those times, we are not as concerned with efficiency.
Dirk,
The Twister reference, about sums it up!
At the moment, I am at 80% on the cell, 1100 on the pump, with 6 hours of run time. I also have the pump set run at 2000 rpm for 30 minutes three times a day, I figured that would boost the effectiveness the skimmers, but that's a SWAG!
The 'old' way was 1850 rpm for 12 hours with the IntelliChem controlling the SWCG via ORP, so I am essentially starting from scratch!
The Twister reference, about sums it up!
At the moment, I am at 80% on the cell, 1100 on the pump, with 6 hours of run time. I also have the pump set run at 2000 rpm for 30 minutes three times a day, I figured that would boost the effectiveness the skimmers, but that's a SWAG!
The 'old' way was 1850 rpm for 12 hours with the IntelliChem controlling the SWCG via ORP, so I am essentially starting from scratch!
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,668
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
That sounds good. I like the skimmer idea. I had the same, but my p-o-j ET doesn't offer that many schedules. Conceivably, you could do the same with your SWG. Set it to do three 2-hour stints, to spread out your filtering schedule and chlorine dosing, morning, noon, mid-afternoon, whatever... I might, if I could. I think that's the red option on the ol' Twister dial.
I run my cleaner at 4:30AM for an hour or so, everyday, as a safety measure. I don't want it running while there's any chance my kids are in the pool. So that's my secondary filtering cycle, but no SWG or acid dosing during that run. In the off season, I get down to about 1 hour in the am and 3 hours in the pm. I could probably do less, but I have a PV solar system, so I don't have to be too, too careful about runtimes.
I think these various options and scenarios are overlooked by those without automation that claim it is unnecessary. Do we need all this capability, no. But it's nice to have, and if my pool is slightly cleaner, or its water feels slightly nicer, because I can fine tune my scheduling and dosing, then that helps justify the cost of automation (to me, anyway).
Where did I hear it? "It only cost 100% more to go first class!" Pool automation is less than 5% more!
I run my cleaner at 4:30AM for an hour or so, everyday, as a safety measure. I don't want it running while there's any chance my kids are in the pool. So that's my secondary filtering cycle, but no SWG or acid dosing during that run. In the off season, I get down to about 1 hour in the am and 3 hours in the pm. I could probably do less, but I have a PV solar system, so I don't have to be too, too careful about runtimes.
I think these various options and scenarios are overlooked by those without automation that claim it is unnecessary. Do we need all this capability, no. But it's nice to have, and if my pool is slightly cleaner, or its water feels slightly nicer, because I can fine tune my scheduling and dosing, then that helps justify the cost of automation (to me, anyway).
Where did I hear it? "It only cost 100% more to go first class!" Pool automation is less than 5% more!
Now I see why this site is not called KISS pool care... There is allot to think about.
I had not considered the even distribution of chlorine production over the course of the day, I was more focused on minimizing pump runtime, but what you are saying makes sense, a stable FC level is more desirable than peaks in chlorine production. We also have a PV system, but my consumption still outstrips production.
I overshot today, FC at sundown was 6.8, so I backed the cell off 10% and we'll see how tomorrow goes.
I also run my cleaner before the start of filtration in the morning, my wife does not allow the kids in the pool when the robot is in there, so it comes out most mornings, gets a rinse and goes back in at the end of the day, a bit of a pain, but the old adage of the happy wife applies.
Have a wonderful evening everyone, and thanks again for all the great tips!
I had not considered the even distribution of chlorine production over the course of the day, I was more focused on minimizing pump runtime, but what you are saying makes sense, a stable FC level is more desirable than peaks in chlorine production. We also have a PV system, but my consumption still outstrips production.
I overshot today, FC at sundown was 6.8, so I backed the cell off 10% and we'll see how tomorrow goes.
I also run my cleaner before the start of filtration in the morning, my wife does not allow the kids in the pool when the robot is in there, so it comes out most mornings, gets a rinse and goes back in at the end of the day, a bit of a pain, but the old adage of the happy wife applies.
Have a wonderful evening everyone, and thanks again for all the great tips!
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,668
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Well, as others should have warned you about by now, you are in the dreaded clutches of Dirk!
He tends to over-complicate just about everything he touches, and isn't satisfied until he's dragged everyone else down with him!!Swim for your life, man! Save yourself!!
Dirk,
I'll pit my OCD against your OCD any day!
I worked on lowering my TA for a few hours yesterday evening, and I am at it again this morning.
The results of the OCLT: FC Loss 0.4, does that sound about right?
Here are this mornings test results:
FC - 6.4
CC - 0
pH - 7.5
TA - 180
CH - 200
CYA - 70 (Calculated by Pool Math)
Salt - 3600
CSI - .590
Temp - 80F
I seem to have lost 200 ppm of salt over the last couple days, is this expected or possibly a testing error on my part? I have the makeup water OFF and my pool's water level has not changed.
I'll pit my OCD against your OCD any day!
I worked on lowering my TA for a few hours yesterday evening, and I am at it again this morning.
The results of the OCLT: FC Loss 0.4, does that sound about right?
Here are this mornings test results:
FC - 6.4
CC - 0
pH - 7.5
TA - 180
CH - 200
CYA - 70 (Calculated by Pool Math)
Salt - 3600
CSI - .590
Temp - 80F
I seem to have lost 200 ppm of salt over the last couple days, is this expected or possibly a testing error on my part? I have the makeup water OFF and my pool's water level has not changed.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,668
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
According to TFP, FC loss of 0.4 is acceptable. From the OCLT instructions:
How are you testing your salt? If you're using test strips or your SWG to determine your salt level, then a 200ppm difference is basically a miracle. If you want to keep better track of your salt, you need a Taylor K-1766 Test Kit. But even that has a pretty generous margin of error. There's no affordable, accurate test for salt content.
Also, I want to address this line you wrote:
You can eventually figure out your appropriate SWG output level doing it that way, but it'll take longer. I cautioned you about using the SWG to move your FC level. There's no harm in it, it'll just take longer to get to your optimized output number. So:
- If the FC is low, dose liquid chlorine manually back to the target level, then ratchet up your SWG output setting a notch or two.
- If the FC is high, turn off the SWG and let the water return to the target level, then ratchet down your SWG output setting a notch or two.
Think about it, you're trying to find the perfect number for your SWG so it will maintain your FC at a certain level. If you find that number, and your FC is high, your SWG will maintain your FC at that higher level, above the target level. If you lower the output number enough to lower the FC level, then your output setting is not at the "maintain" number, it'll be at a "lessen FC" setting. So your FC will drop to the target level, sure, but continue to drop! So then you'll up the setting to get it to rise again, but that also won't be the "maintain" number, that'll be the "raise FC" setting. That's what I meant by the yo-yo effect. Again, don't try to move the FC with the SWG, because it'll take you a long time to eventually find the "maintain" setting that way.
Oh, puhleezzzz...
How are you testing your salt? If you're using test strips or your SWG to determine your salt level, then a 200ppm difference is basically a miracle. If you want to keep better track of your salt, you need a Taylor K-1766 Test Kit. But even that has a pretty generous margin of error. There's no affordable, accurate test for salt content.
Also, I want to address this line you wrote:
You can eventually figure out your appropriate SWG output level doing it that way, but it'll take longer. I cautioned you about using the SWG to move your FC level. There's no harm in it, it'll just take longer to get to your optimized output number. So:
- If the FC is low, dose liquid chlorine manually back to the target level, then ratchet up your SWG output setting a notch or two.
- If the FC is high, turn off the SWG and let the water return to the target level, then ratchet down your SWG output setting a notch or two.
Think about it, you're trying to find the perfect number for your SWG so it will maintain your FC at a certain level. If you find that number, and your FC is high, your SWG will maintain your FC at that higher level, above the target level. If you lower the output number enough to lower the FC level, then your output setting is not at the "maintain" number, it'll be at a "lessen FC" setting. So your FC will drop to the target level, sure, but continue to drop! So then you'll up the setting to get it to rise again, but that also won't be the "maintain" number, that'll be the "raise FC" setting. That's what I meant by the yo-yo effect. Again, don't try to move the FC with the SWG, because it'll take you a long time to eventually find the "maintain" setting that way.
Oh, puhleezzzz...
- May 3, 2014
- 62,729
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Be sure you are doing your FC test as follows. No need for the granularity of the 25ml test.
Fill the sample tube with pool water to the 10 ml mark. The top of the sample will be curved. This curve is called a meniscus. The bottom of the meniscus should be level with the 10 ml mark. Multiply the number of drops by 0.5 to get your FC level.
Fill the sample tube with pool water to the 10 ml mark. The top of the sample will be curved. This curve is called a meniscus. The bottom of the meniscus should be level with the 10 ml mark. Multiply the number of drops by 0.5 to get your FC level.
Good advice Gentlemen, thank you!
I have my TA down to 160 and falling, I hope to have it down below 100 by the end of the day tomorrow as I will not have time after that to mess with it for several days.
I have the Taylor salt test kit, so I have a one drop delta from the previous test, the SWCG gives a different reading every time it reports the salt level, I don't pay any attention to it.
Dirk, We will have to agree to disagree on the OCD, but I'll tip my hat to you on pool knowledge!
Marty, I have been testing 25 ml samples to .02 resolution, it's all Dirk's fault... I have to whittle down the amount of time I'm spending on the pool, so I intended to switch over to the 10 ml test anyway, it's been fun, but I'm running low on time to devote to pool duties.
I have my TA down to 160 and falling, I hope to have it down below 100 by the end of the day tomorrow as I will not have time after that to mess with it for several days.
I have the Taylor salt test kit, so I have a one drop delta from the previous test, the SWCG gives a different reading every time it reports the salt level, I don't pay any attention to it.
Dirk, We will have to agree to disagree on the OCD, but I'll tip my hat to you on pool knowledge!
Marty, I have been testing 25 ml samples to .02 resolution, it's all Dirk's fault... I have to whittle down the amount of time I'm spending on the pool, so I intended to switch over to the 10 ml test anyway, it's been fun, but I'm running low on time to devote to pool duties.