Pool Proposal in NE FL - feedback requested!

[ChrisBJax]

Below is a pool proposal from a builder that we are seriously considering. All feedback is welcome. We are very interested in hearing thoughts on the builder's suggested equipment. The design is not quite finalized, but I will post it when it is. The builder is very experienced and has a good reputation, but they're a "production" builder so I want to be sure that we thoughtfully consider everything.

• Pool Size: 15' x 30' Gallons: 15,150
• Perimeter: 90' Area: 450ft2 - We are modifying the pool to a "lazy L"
• Pool Depth: 3.5' - 6'
• Engineered Construction & Plumbing Plans and Building Permits
• Pre Grade and Site Preparation
• Removal of existing paver as needed
• Pool Layout and Pre-site with Customer
• Form Pool, Excavation with Hand Trimming and Shaping
• Steel Reinforced 4000 PSI Pneumatically Applied Concrete Structure with Reinforced 8" Bond Beam, 6" Walls and Floor, including Seven Irons, Perimeter Wrap, 3/8" Steel Rebar 12"O.C.
• One (1) Set Shallow End Entry Steps w/ 5'x6' Sun Shelf
• One (1) 4' x 18" Underwater Bench
• Two (2) LED Underwater Pool Color Logic Lights
• Choice of 6" x 6" Frost Proof Waterline Tile installed w/ mudset
• Lifetime Warranty Interior Pebble Pool Finish
• Removal of Wood Forms and Backfill and Grading for Pool Deck
• 60 linear feet of Channel Deck Drain
• 720ft2 Brick Paver Decking set w/ Polymeric Sand & Bullnose Brick Paver Coping
• All Heavy Gauge Schedule 40 PVC Plumbing w/ CMP Channel Main Drain
• High Flow Surface Skimmer pre-plumbed w/ pressure test and formed into gunite shell
• High Performance Smart Flow Pump
• Extra High Capacity 225 SF Micro-ban Smart Cartridge Filtration System set on a poured in place Concrete Slab
• In Line Chlorination Tab Feeder System OR 20,000gal. Capacity Aqua Rite Salt Chlorine Generator System
• Five (5) Return Line Total Recirculation System
• Pre-plumbed Pressure Line for Pool Vacuum
• Complete Electrical wiring of all components
• 24 Hour Mechanical Programmable Time clock

What are we missing? What will come up later that the builder didn't include? What should we upgrade?

 

[mickey4paws]

Hi Chris, welcome to TFP! I know nothing about pool construction but I'm sure some of our smart people will be here soon. Couple suggestions though. First I would go for a salt water generator and not an in line tab feeder. Also I'd recommend a cell for 40k pools (they recommend you always get a cell for around twice the gallons of your pool (easier on the cell and will last longer). Aqua Rite makes a T-15 cell that would be perfect. That's what we have and it works great. Lastly, I would recommend a robotic cleaner instead of a pressure cleaner. They work better and easier to use. Best wishes on your new pool!

 

[setsailsoon]

Chris,

Welcome to TFP and congrats on your new pool!

I have a few comments on both the contracting side and a few on the pool options.

Contract:

• Avoid "one way" terms.
• Make sure payment milestones are easy to verify.
• Require a final inspection and performance test of all equipment prior to paying the last progress payment (typically 10%)
• Make sure warranty is defined in simple English
• Understand any obligations you have other than paying.
• Understand all terms in the contract.
• Who starts up the pool?

Pool- here are some items I would ask for and get pricing on.

• Get the brand and model number of all equipment
• Automation?
• I would make sure you have a VS pump.
• Get a major brand or 3rd party brand SWG with good reputation here

I hope this is helpful.

Chris

 

[ChrisBJax]

Thanks guys, very helpful.

Below is another proposal from a builder that seems to include more information and I generally have a better feeling about this second company.

Swimming Pool
~15’ x 30’, ~450 SQFT, ~90 LF Perimeter, 3’5” to 6” Depth

1. Structure

6” Shotcrete (5500 psi) with #3 rebar 10” on center
10” Bond Beam with 7 irons for added support
1 ea set of entry/exit steps in shallow end of pool per specifications
Bench per specifications

1. Plumbing

4 ea pool wall returns for maximum flow
6 ea in-floor returns for maximum circulation
1 ea Aquastar 32” Channel Drain
1 ea Sta-Rite U3 Skimmer
1 ea Pentair Autofill/Drain
1 ea Vacuum port for Future Pentair Legend II Cleaner
All plumbing to be SCH 2” PVC or larger

1. Tile

6” x6” waterline tile to run perimeter of pool $8/SQFT Material Max-Cap

4. Interior Finnish
Pebble Finnish (Upgrade Finish)

5. Equipment
1- Sta-rite Intellipro VSF Variable Speed Pump
1- PLM 300 Cartridge Filter
4- 12v Pentair Globrite Color LED Pool Lights
1- Pentair IC 20 Salt Generator or A&A Ozone

We've decided to go with chlorine, not salt, but that's about the only decision we've made. Since we are still in the very early stages, I suppose we can nail down the low cost items later. So how does this equipment list look? The cartridge filter seems to be a good size. The builder mentioned the in-floor returns are not necessary, but I'm wondering if they make sense for us. The pool will be in full sun so we're concerned about a hot pool and wondering if this plumbing system will increase water circulation. Also, we've discussed installing a heater down the road. The builder says these in-floor returns increase heater efficiency. Thoughts?

 

[setsailsoon]

Chris,

I'm a little south of you so more of the Florida sun and less cold days in winter. We swim several days every week all year round. Don't see any problem here mixing hot water in the pool but at the bottom in the very deepest parts it's a little cooler on the coldest days... not sure I'd want returns in the bottom though. Anything at the bottom is harder to maintain. Returns should be low maintenance but that would be my preference. I'd defer to experts with more experience though.

If you're going to enclose the pool the filter 300 sq ft would probably be OK I have 200 and it works great. But for unenclosed I'd go with the biggest you can get since that's what most of our experts recommend.

Chlorine will work great. I did that for 5 years 'till I got tired of jug-lugging. Little over a year ago I went to salt and will never have anything else. So easy and wife loves it so she wouldn't let me change anyway. All said though nothing wrong with a liquid chlorine pool. If for some reason you change your mind make sure to get a system sized for 2x or more your pool size. This gives you more flexibility in run time and can extend cell life.

Consider a robot like the Pentair Warrior SE. If I ever build a new pool I will have one. I switched a couple months ago and love it. Plus this way you can skim only to skim surface muck and not share suction with the cleaner. Works way better this way.

Not sure on your LED lights. Seems like there is one series of Pentair that's preferred. I'll ask @ajw22 and @Jimrahbe to weigh in. I'm sure they'll have other helpful comments also.

As to the structural design, there are a lot of ways to skin the cat and they all work. You can't look at any one aspect such as rebar size without looking at the whole system such as spacing, concrete strength etc. Just be sure the design is stamped by an experienced, registered professional engineer. I prefer one local because he's more likely to be familiar with local soils but any real state certified PE is required to have this. PE's are regulated by states so he should have a state stamp and registration number. Be aware some builders use a "standard design approach" and others use a specific design for each pool. Specific approach has a strengths analysis for your specific pool so it costs more. Most builders offer this at an extra cost. Either approach can work well if used correctly.

Chris

 

[ajw22]

Thanks guys, very helpful.

Below is another proposal from a builder that seems to include more information and I generally have a better feeling about this second company.

Swimming Pool
~15’ x 30’, ~450 SQFT, ~90 LF Perimeter, 3’5” to 6” Depth

1. Structure

6” Shotcrete (5500 psi) with #3 rebar 10” on center
10” Bond Beam with 7 irons for added support
1 ea set of entry/exit steps in shallow end of pool per specifications
Bench per specifications

1. Plumbing

4 ea pool wall returns for maximum flow
6 ea in-floor returns for maximum circulation
1 ea Aquastar 32” Channel Drain
1 ea Sta-Rite U3 Skimmer
1 ea Pentair Autofill/Drain
1 ea Vacuum port for Future Pentair Legend II Cleaner
All plumbing to be SCH 2” PVC or larger

1. Tile

6” x6” waterline tile to run perimeter of pool $8/SQFT Material Max-Cap

4. Interior Finnish
Pebble Finnish (Upgrade Finish)

5. Equipment
1- Sta-rite Intellipro VSF Variable Speed Pump
1- PLM 300 Cartridge Filter
4- 12v Pentair Globrite Color LED Pool Lights
1- Pentair IC 20 Salt Generator or A&A Ozone

We've decided to go with chlorine, not salt, but that's about the only decision we've made. Since we are still in the very early stages, I suppose we can nail down the low cost items later. So how does this equipment list look? The cartridge filter seems to be a good size. The builder mentioned the in-floor returns are not necessary, but I'm wondering if they make sense for us. The pool will be in full sun so we're concerned about a hot pool and wondering if this plumbing system will increase water circulation. Also, we've discussed installing a heater down the road. The builder says these in-floor returns increase heater efficiency. Thoughts?

It is interesting how every builder throws in a few things to try and differentiate themselves in a commodity business.

4 pool wall returns and 6 in floor returns with one skimmer and one main drain? You think that may be a bit imbalanced between the amount of water in and water out? Yes, it will work, but not likely well.

I want at least 2 skimmers plus the main drain. I don't think the infloor returns are a big benefit. Take them or leave them.

No spa?

No automation?

• Vacuum port for Future Pentair Legend II Cleaner is the worst type of pool cleaner to have. It is 1960's technology. Either get a late 20th century pressure cleaner Polaris Quattro Sport or a 21st century robot cleaner.
• 1- Sta-rite Intellipro VSF Variable Speed Pump - good
• 1- PLM 300 Cartridge Filter - good
• 4- 12v Pentair Globrite Color LED Pool Lights - Globrites are failure prone and use a proprietary niche. You are signing up to replace them for a few hundred each every few years. Read Pentair LED Pool Lights - Further Reading
• 1- Pentair IC 20 Salt Generator or A&A Ozone - IC20 is too small for most pools. Ozone is never recommended. Ozone Systems - Further Reading

 

[ChrisBJax]

Ok guys. After much more reading and studying we're going with a salt water generator pool. I'm going back to the builders to request a quote with the equipment I want. Here's what I'm thinking:

Recall, the pool is going to be a 15x30 gunite with no spa and no enclosure.

• Sta-rite Intellipro VSF Variable Speed Pump
• PLM 300 Cartridge Filter
• Pentair IC 40 SWG

No in-floor returns and no ozone. Also, no automation mainly because this is going to be a simple pool with no water features - but I can be convinced otherwise.

One of the builders I'm in contact with uses Hayward products. Can someone identify the Hayward equivalents for the Pentair equipment above? Thanks!

 

[ajw22]

Ok guys. After much more reading and studying we're going with a salt water generator pool. I'm going back to the builders to request a quote with the equipment I want. Here's what I'm thinking:

Recall, the pool is going to be a 15x30 gunite with no spa and no enclosure.

• Sta-rite Intellipro VSF Variable Speed Pump
• PLM 300 Cartridge Filter
• Pentair IC 40 SWG

No in-floor returns and no ozone. Also, no automation mainly because this is going to be a simple pool with no water features - but I can be convinced otherwise.

One of the builders I'm in contact with uses Hayward products. Can someone identify the Hayward equivalents for the Pentair equipment above? Thanks!

• TriStar VS pump
• C3030 filter
• Aquarite T-15 SWG

 

[ChrisBJax]

I think I have as close to an "apples to apples" quote as I'm going to get. They are very close - PB#1 charges less per sq ft for decking. One uses Pentair and the other uses Hayward products made for this specific nationwide pool company.

PB#1 - $50,000 (excluding deck):
15x30 + cantilever for "lazy L"
3.5'6' depth
2 LED Color Logic Lights ($1k to add a third)
High Flow Surface Skimmer
High Performance Smart Flow Variable Speed Pump 2.7hp max
450 sf Microban Smart Cartridge Filtration System
40k gal. Aqua Rite SWCG
Autofill
5 return lines

PB#2 - $48,600 (excluding deck):
15x30 + cantilever for "lazy L"
3.5-6' depth
2 Intellibrite Color LED lights
1 Globrite Color LED light
2 Sta-Rite U3 Skimmers
Sta-Rite Intellipro VSF Variable Speed Pump
PLM 300 Cartridge Filter
Pentair IC40 SWG
1 Pentair Autofill/Drain
4 return lines

What follow-up questions should I have?

I've pasted one of the renderings below.

 

[ajw22]

Don't get the GloBrite. Get all IntelliBrites. The GloBrites are failure prone and use a proprietary niche and you are stuck with no alternatives when the light fails. Read - Pentair LED Pool Lights - Further Reading

Are you getting the IntelliBrite 5G 12V lights?

 

[Tegguy]

We were told by a couple builders when we were doing our quote not to do the autofill because they have a tendancy to run too often. I don't know how true this is but we opted not to do one.

We ended up going with 4 Pentair Microbrite lights in our pool in place of the intellibrites. I'm no expert but maybe consider a return line on the sunshelf to avoid standing water? Before signing anything you'll want to know what all is included I.E. pebble or quartz? Glass or porcelain waterline tile? Do you want automation at all? What type of safety system is quoted and does it include everything to pass inspection?

I see both of these quotes are "excluding deck" but you mention one charges less than the other so I'm confused since they weren't in the price (at least that you posted)

 

[ChrisBJax]

The more we think about it, the more we like PB #2.

@ajw22 I raised the proprietary niche issue with the PB and he said his only qualm with the Intellibrites is that they are much bigger than the Globrites so they wouldn't fit on the sun shelf. He's quoted me the 120v 500w. Do you recommend the 12V?

@Tegguy The quote includes a pebble finish from Tempool. Good point about the tile. The quote includes porcelain waterline tile only. I'll ask him about the line tile for the steps and sun shelf. We have a baby so we're having them install a child gate at $19/sq foot. Does that seem steep?

I'm hoping to negotiate the price of the deck. He said they don't sub out work and I know he can do concrete pavers cheaper than the $9/sq ft he's quoting me. Not sure there's much room to budge, however, because I'm sure they factor in this profit margin in their proposals.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[ajw22]

The 120V Intellibrites simply have a 120V to 12V transformer in the light. I prefer to have an external transformer with a 12V light. One less thing to fail in the light and it makes it easier to replace the light board when it fails.

If you mix IntelliBrites and Globrites note that the blue color is a bit different between them. Look at putting MicroBrite lights in your sun shelf.

Pentair LED Pool Lights - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com