Pool plaster- less than 2 years old. Spot etching?

We could go back and fourth all day and nothing would be solved due to the complexity of the issue. If you read my comments I place the blame on no individual (plaster or service man). From all of the quotes one should be able to discern that the two both play a role. My last comment would be on water chemistry, I have never met an owner or a pool service man who doesn't say the pool water is always perfect. Reproducible testing with daily recording of water chemistry will be the only way to end debate.

Lastly in my personal experience we see issues rarely on commercial properties. These pools typically have service maintenance multiple times a week and have chemical feeders installed.
 
When I have had conversations with plasterers in the past, this is how it normally goes. (It appears to be similar to our current discussion).

The plaster person tells me that aggressive water just has to be involved with spotting.
I follow up that comment by mentioning that the results of the Cal Poly studies indicated just the opposite. That spotting occurred in some balanced pools and did not in some aggressive water pools. Therefore, workmanship must be involved with spotting.

And that calcium hydroxide is being dissolved from the plaster in the compromised areas.
And that calcium hydroxide is soluble, meaning that non-aggressive water can dissolve it.

That aggressive water can attack compromised plaster areas and spots much faster than balanced water, and thereby cause spotting to occur faster. And that it will take a little longer for balanced water to expose those compromised areas and spots and turn them white.

That four cement laboratories have determined that poor troweling workmanship leads to compromised plaster surfaces that can be affected by non-aggressive pool water.

That plasterers do not have any study or science that provides some substantive information that supports their theory regarding aggressive water causing spotting, or even the other common plaster defects. And they have not provided the type, kind, or degree of aggressive water is required to spot a pool. Would you have some input on this?

After the phase one study, the Cal Poly professors wrote and presented a report to the ICMA indicating that they did/could not prove that spotting was caused by aggressive water. Also, so did David Rothstein (a petrographer that you reference previously). In other words, the NPC leaders misrepresented to the industry that they proved that aggressive water causes spotting.

So, what do these plaster leaders respond with? They say, let’s forget about what happened in the past and do some more test pools. (No wonder they want to ignore what has been learned.) It is simply a diversion and delay tactic.

After those comments, I ask the following question. How does aggressive water also cause gray mottling discoloration, spalling, and calcium nodules? How can it cause all four issues but not always in the same (supposedly) aggressive water pool? And why don't acid washes spot pools and cause these other issues too? That is when they close-down the discussion. In other words, they are misrepresenting what causes those defects too.) What is your position on these other plaster problems? Is is the same as the NPC or not?

If you will respond to the above, we can then discuss our onBalance test pools. I will also invite you to propose a detailed protocol; water parameters, LSI, troweling techniques, w/c ratio, mix ratios, etc.
 
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@lasvegaspools
You are proposing new test pools experiments. To help determine how to best approach that project, the following are questions that would help me understand your position and how to proceed.
  • The professional cement labs findings were that no aggressive water was involved in the development of white, porous, soft, spots. Why should those findings be ignored, discarded, or rejected?
  • The Cal Poly and NPC test pool studies found that some balanced water pools developed white spotting, and some aggressive pools did not. Why should those findings be ignored, discarded, or rejected?
  • Calcium hydroxide, a 25% component of plaster, can be dissolved by LSI balanced water. It is that component that cement labs have determine has been dissolved and removed from a compromised, weak, and micro-cracked plaster surfaced that end up as visible white soft spots and streaks. On what basis do you suggest that LSI aggressive water is required to dissolve that component out of the plaster?
  • Do you agree with plasterers (NPC leaders) that aggressive water also causes gray mottling of white plaster, plaster spalling (flaking), crusty calcium carbonate nodules, all to form randomly in pools? If so, what evidence do you have to put forth as support of your position?
  • What kind of aggressive water? How aggressive does the water need to be to cause white soft spotting, graying, spalling, and calcium nodules? An LSI of -2.0 -1.0, -0.5, -0.3, or -0.1? And how long does it take to make those plaster problems become visible?
I look forward to your responses.
 
@onBalance just a quick update. We continued the conversation with our pool company and showed them the research and this forum. The owner had a better response this year and came out again. He said he will not disappear on us and had the plaster material company come out with him and check out the pool. The plaster guy came out and also agreed with us that this is not normal on a 2 year old pool. They said they use the best chemicals, don’t think it was calcium chloride because they don’t use that but that something happened and maybe it was even the mix that we got, the water trucked in, they aren’t sure. He is going to check the lot numbers, and said if this is a mix or chemical issue they will provide free material for it to be redone. At this point I don’t know what a fair remedy would be. I don’t feel like they need to completely redo it right now if they even were willing, and worry it will happen again if they can’t figure it out first anyway. The pool company owner said a lot of his pools actually look this way and they had considered it to be somewhat of the nature of plaster up until now, though ours is severe. Thoughts?
 
The plaster guy is going to check the lot numbers, and said if this is a mix or chemical issue they will provide free material for it to be redone.

The pool company owner said a lot of his pools actually look this way and they had considered it to be somewhat of the nature of plaster up until now, though ours is severe. Thoughts?

So the plaster guy says that if [in the unlikely event] its the plaster he will provide the plaster mix ( a couple hundred dollars) and you provide the labor (several thousand dollars).

The pool builder say "they all look like that".

I hate to say this but it looks like your in for an exercise in finger pointing with you left footing the bill!
 
I would expect the pool company to cover some if not all portion of the labor. I don’t even want to go through the headache of redoing it immediately because i don’t feel we can fully guarantee it won’t happen again. I would rather some other form of compensation from the pool company, maybe a credit for other work. I do feel vindicated that the plaster guy agrees that it was not normal. I’ll be curious to see the outcome.
 
You may have already seen this article.

The above article also applies to white plaster pools. Mention to the contractor that adding water while troweling late contributes to causing whitish spots and streaks. It isn't just about calcium chloride being added.
 
@lasvegaspools
  • What kind of aggressive water? How aggressive does the water need to be to cause white soft spotting, graying, spalling, and calcium nodules? An LSI of -2.0 -1.0, -0.5, -0.3, or -0.1? And how long does it take to make those plaster problems become visible?
I look forward to your responses.

THIS! IS the question. I will be very interested to see the answer.
:cool:
 
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