Pool Leak

[surfbabe]

I also have a leak - not a big one like the OP but losing about 1 inch in my 26K pool every other day. I think it was probably going on during the summer but it was really hot here and I put it down to evaporation.
I had noticed the following:
that the pool took forever to prime but put this down to the water getting low in the skimmers and air getting in.
that when the pump started up, a whole load of bubbles came out of the return jets, this usually stopped after a minute or so.
Now, I notice that the ground all around the pool equipment is damp and this extends out quite a way..

So far - I've left the pool without pump for a day - no real water loss. So it doesn't look like the pool is compromised (it also looks in great shape).

I've turned the valves to off/closed on the 3 pipes bringing water from the main drain, skimmer #1 and skimmer #2.
I turned to on/open one valve at a time. I had put in enough water but not much more than enough ( maybe an inch over the basket) This would normally be enough for now
With the skimmers on, the water seemed to be sucked right into the basket into a hole, almost as if there was a vacuum and when run separately neither primed the pump.
I then tested the main drain on it's own ( so obviously sufficient water) and it primed at first - although a little slowly- a load of air came through the return jets but then the water level in the pump basket dropped and the pump lost prime..

Any ideas about where to start? Is this a suction side leak? If so, why would 3 different pipes have the same problem- I can't be that unlucky!

 

[Texas Splash]

Everything you are describing points to a suction side leak, but it is odd that all 3 lines seem to be starving the pump. You probably have no idea how they are plumbed underground huh? But the fact that there is significant wetness around the pad is telling. Can't tell from the pic exactly where that wetness is, but I would start there. We also want to make sure the lack of good prime and wetness are not two separate issues. So make sure to check the common suction side items first like pump basket lid o-ring and drain plugs lubed, no leaks around any suction valves. Watch closely when the system is shut off for any spurts of water or hissing noises. It's very important to rule-out everything above ground before assuming the worse and digging. Then try to find the origin of that dampness around the pad. Have you noticed anything odd between the pool and spa? Unexplained water transfer, external moisture, etc?

 

[Jimrahbe]

babe,

I'm a little confused as usual...

You seem to have two different problems that you are trying to troubleshoot at the same time.. This just makes it much harder than it needs to be..

If your pool does not have much of a leak with the pump off, that almost eliminates a leak in the suction plumbing...

I suggest that you add enough water to get your pool level into the middle of the skimmer or slightly higher.. Your pump cannot suck more water out of the skimmer than can flow in from the pool unless your water level is too low or your skimmer's weir door is stuck up.. You can't troubleshoot a priming problem unless you have enough water in the pool and an inch over the skimmer basket it just not enough.

Once you determine if you really have a priming issue you can troubleshoot that problem... Running off the main drain only takes a lot of suction and will exacerbate any tiny air leak your pump might have..

The first step in troubleshooting a possible leak is to determine for sure if the problem is better or worse with the pump running... Take an accurate reading of your water level and let the pump run for several hours and take another reading.. then do the same thing with the pump off... I use a simple paint stir stick and a pencil to measure my water level.. I stick it over the top of the coping and into the bottom of the skimmer mouth. Pull it out and it will leave a nice water mark.. Mark it with a pencil and you have a great starting level..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[surfbabe]

So I noticed that my pool was losing water right before Thanksgiving. In fact I had wondered if it was losing water during the summer since I seemed to be topping it up more than I remembered doing the previous summer, but it wasn't that much and we had a very hot summer here in Texas....
I had also noticed that when if I started the pump myself ( after cleaning out the basket etc), there seemed to be quite a bit of water needed to go through the system and it took forever to prime - and if the water level was only just over the level needed to run the pump, then there was enough of a drop that I needed to top it up before I could get it running again. For some reason, I put this down to the new variable speed pump that had been installed in the spring...
Thanksgiving I noticed that although it had rained, the water level had dropped to the level of the skimmer entry. I topped it up and same thing happened. This meant that there wasn't sufficient water to run the pump so I turned it all off since I was going to be away for Thanksgiving.

Then I had Christmas and an international trip back to Europe to sort out so I decided that I would leave it until I got back. I turned the returns to "off" at the pump, figuring that this would let me know if the leak was on the supply side or the return.
We had some rain last weekend, and by Monday the water level was back at the skimmer level. So, I'm guessing that the leak is probably in one of the 2 skimmer return pipes or at that level in the pool itself? Unlikely to be the main drain since it doesn't keep going down?
Oh Lordy! I am now looking at a green swamp.
I called my favourite pool company and they immediately jumped on sending out their guy with the fancy pants leak detection equipment at a charge of $450 which would check everything for a leak - I would then have to pay for any repairs. The guy also said that it sounds like it's a leak in one of the return pipes so they would probably use "fix a leak" at a cost of $30.

Help!
I was thinking that I would block off the 2 skimmers, add water to test out my theory. How do I block off the skimmers?
opinions on "fix a leak"?
is there anything stopping me from buying it myself and trying it out? Then if that doesn't work then calling in the guys at $450?
Would I need to clean up the pool first?


Thank you so much for any help.

 

[Texas Splash]

They sell rubber stopping plugs of various sizes that you can install into a simmer/suction hole. Fix-a-Leak? I'd say no way. If a leak is compromised underground, it needs to be repaired properly. There are leak detection companies that have scopes and/or ultrasound to pinpoint a leak - no guesswork. If that company you contacted doesn't have it, I would check around more. It can be a plumbing company too, not just pool services. Doing a SLAM Process to get the water clear and sanitary might be in your best interest. Not only to visually look around, but to avoid additional "costs" for workers going into unsanitary conditions.

 

[ajw22]

Your can get some Winterization Plugs of the proper size for your skimmers and returns as you plug each to see if the leak stops. Or you can use some potatoes for temporary plugs.

 

[surfbabe]

Thank you both for your replies.
One of the skimmers had a little cover that swings over it to block it off. This is the one that I think might be leaking. It blocks the water going through , so I've blocked off that one. I've added more water to see if the level goes down overnight or not. If the level doesn't go down then I know it's that one that was the problem and if it does then I'll block off the other one as well and see what happens. Making an assumption that only 1 of them will have a leak.....

 

[surfbabe]

update..
blocking off the one skimmer seemed to stop the leak. That's good news I think. However, this does mean that the leak is in the pipe between the skimmer and the pump. Let's cross that bridge once I have the swamp cleaned up a bit.
I was out of cya testing liquid so I went to the pool shop and asked them to test it for me, in the past our results have been close to each other, so I'm not too concerned about inaccuracy there. CYA was 78, a bit higher than I wanted but then I did cheat a bit and use pool tablets during the summer.
The lovely young man tried to sell me some "clean to green" stuff but couldn't explain how it worked other than telling me it killed the algae. I said "the bleach does this so non, merci."
I've had to backwash twice in 2 days and I haven't even started the SLAM. I'm just throwing in some bleach whilst I try to clean out the leaves and debris. Is this normal? I don't remember having to backwash so much before but then it wasn't a swamp before either.
Today, the twist connector for the polaris broke so off I went to the store and bought more DE as well as the new connector. By the time I got home the pressure on the pump was at the higher end again! I connected the polaris again, threw in more bleach and went to get a glass of wine. I'll backwash tomorrow.
At the moment, I'm using one of the skimmers and the main drain for the filter. When I turn the variable speed pump to start at 3450rpm, the water can't get into the skimmer quickly enough through the weir/pool and it goes down low, then the pump loses prime. I've limited the rpm to 2400 and that seems to be ok.

 

[ajw22]

Your filter is getting clogged by the algae. You need to kill the algae with the SLAM Process and as the algae growth declines you will get more time between filter cleanings. Stock up on DE.

Do you have a RECIRCULATE setting on your MPV? If you do you can use it to bypass the filter during the early stages of the SLAM Process.

 

[surfbabe]

I still have debris/leaves on the bottom of the pool ( I can't really see the bottom at the deep end) and I thought I would need to clear it up before SLAMming the pool? This is a tiresome job - I can't see the bottom of the pool well, the polaris isn't working brilliantly because the filter keeps getting clogged.
I'll start the SLAM tomorrow since hopefully I will have cleared most of the debris out.

 

[ajw22]

Start your SLAM Process ASAP. Follow the procedure step by step. Lower your pH before you begin adding chlorine. Get your pool up to SLAM FC level and maintain it as best you can.

Having the debris in it will cost you more chlorine but you need to slow or stop the algae growth. You can clean stuff out of the pool once you can see it at the bottom.

Run your filter in RECIRCULATE if necessary to keep adequate water flow.

 

[surfbabe]

I seem to be on daily visits to the pool store and I can foresee another one today as well.
I started the SLAM today. Backwashed first since I had left the filter running overnight with the polaris going. The pool is definitely looking less swamplike. That's the good news.
Two questions:
1.I have had to backwash 2x today already and it looks like it's going to need another one before long. Do you think I should get the DE filter out and hose it down or just backwash again?
2.Another issue is that the polaris 280 doesn't seem to be staying on the bottom of the pool very well, slightly over to one side and not cleaning the whole bottom. I've cleaned out the in-line filter, checked that the float is ok ( it is), adjusted the back nozzle a little to make sure it really is at 11 o'clock and also reduced the water going to the tail. I had a complete tune up kit done last spring so don't think it can be anything major.... any ideas?
thank you.

 

[ajw22]

1.I have had to backwash 2x today already and it looks like it's going to need another one before long. Do you think I should get the DE filter out and hose it down or just backwash again?

Just keep on backwashing when your filter pressure rises 25% - 30% from clean pressure.

Can you run your filter in RECIRCULATE?

2.Another issue is that the polaris 280 doesn't seem to be staying on the bottom of the pool very well, slightly over to one side and not cleaning the whole bottom. I've cleaned out the in-line filter, checked that the float is ok ( it is), adjusted the back nozzle a little to make sure it really is at 11 o'clock and also reduced the water going to the tail. I had a complete tune up kit done last spring so don't think it can be anything major.... any ideas?
thank you.

The Polaris may not be getting enough water flow due to your clogged filter. I would wait on troubleshooting the Polaris until you get your filter running at normal pressures.

 

[surfbabe]

Pool is looking way better
Now turquoise and cloudy rather than an opaque green swamp.
I've gone through almost 1.5 bags of DE!
Polaris - I've put on new swivel connectors since the others were leaking a little. The Polaris is still going in circles somewhat, not really sticking to the bottom very well and not cleaning the whole pool. I've checked the water valve at the back and that is at 11.00 o'clock which is about right.
Anything else I can check?

 

[Texas Splash]

The Polaris is convenient in normal times, but might be more of an inconvenience during the SLAM. I would focus my attention on manual brushing and vacuuming as needed to ensure all the leaves and junk are out. Keep that FC maintained as best as you can to help the SLAM be more effective. Going through DE ... well .... yeah that's a duel-edged sword of a DE filter. Great expectations for micron filtration, but in a SLAM with algae it will fill-up fast. Just stick with it and backwash as needed. I would also ensure any/all potential hiding places underwater are inspected and cleaned. If you have a light fixture, you may want to remove the light and leave it out for a bit (power off). If you have a drain, it would be good to pull that cover as soon as you're able to get back in the water as some junk may have gotten jammed underneath.

Other than that, maintain the FC level and brush, brush, brush .... then vacuum. The SLAM works.

 

[surfbabe]

Thanks for your reply Texas splash.
I am going to have to figure out the polaris issue anyway and I'd like to get to do this now whilst I'm focusing on the pool anyway.
I've shaken the float head and it has a slight sound in there, but it doesn't feel/sound like it's got water in there.
I've got a VS pump and I've tried out various pump rpm settings and it doesn't change anything apart from the speed the polaris goes round.
Should I ask about this in the forum for pool cleaners?
Finally, I expect the SLAM to be done with in the next few days-week. I've isolated where the leak is - somewhere in the return pipe from the pool back to the pump. Any advice about what to do next?
thanks!

 

[Texas Splash]

Should I ask about this in the forum for pool cleaners?

Probably not a bad idea. You may receive more Polaris-specific replies that way.