POOL DECK QUESTION: you say it's finished? what?

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A

amyfreund

0
Nov 3, 2017
14
miami florida
Hello everyone, this is my second post, I am no only new to this forum but I'm fairly clueless about pools and renovations, sadly! We are totally redoing our pool and deck. My current question is around the deck which is a very large space. The pool guy had my daughter and I pick out tiles, I will call them. We chose a beautiful whitish/brown/blue marble, 24x12. We had an existing brown brick (for 30 years) and the pool guy told us he was going to "put down sand then lay the tiles"... my husband was asking about "thin set"... I'm still sort of learning what that is... and the pool guy said no, everyone does it with sand, so we said OK. The deck is "done" he says, and I've been asking him, all along... WHAT about these BIG GAPS? The tiles are laying next to each other but there are many places where there are gaps, edges of tiles that chipped, and walking on them they move under my feat? He told me when everything was done, he was going to "clean the tiles with hot water/steam" and then lay a kind of sand that "acts like a grout".. it will be placed, get wet, and then harden so nothing moves. We said OK. He took me to several pools he has done to see the finishes of the pool and I saw the decks he has done, like ours. There are not only gaps every where, but the gaps are filled with black dirt and stuff. JUST like at my home now, (especially since we put these marble tiles down "right before hurricane Irma") my gaps are sometimes 1/8 inch and there is a lot of black filling in... not sure if dirt plus a mold/mildew or iguana poop!

We are both pretty upset because he is telling us "this is the look" and everyone does it and likes it... HUH? how can anyone like paying this much money and spending this much time to walk out and see a floor that looks like I haven't cleaned it in years???

QUESTION: He told us yesterday OK.. if you WANT... we can "grout it with white grout"... which is what he did as he "thin set" the (not sure its the right word but) "coping" around the edge of the pool and he "thin set" the steps from the boat dock up to the deck. THAT looks beautiful! perfectly white grout, everything all lined up, just like inside my home.

..... SHOULD we grout this now? He says in a few years we will have to grout again as the tiles will move underneath on the sand and it will crack. The only other alternative is to leave the gaps and clean it once a month with chlorine spray. HUH? I don't want such a high maintenance deck, we had no idea THIS is what we were going to be getting.... anyone else with this that can help?
 
Can you post pics? What you describe is how block floors go down. They sit on a layer of sand and more sand is brushed into the cracks. Most outdoor floors are done this way. If you grout it, the grout will crack and fairly quickly. It is not the way to do outdoor tile and I am surprised he suggested grouting at all. I don't understand the cleaning once a month angle. Most of these tile floors look great year after year.
 
Either a good pic of the "tile" or getting it correctly identified is almost mandatory. A pic(s) of your installation, also. Then, folks will be able to comment.

Keep ALL your posts under this one thread. Your "story" is much easier to follow when it is in one place.
 
What you describe is how pavers and travertine are installed. Sand is brushed into the cracks and water helps it settle. Once the sand is in place it locks everything in and nothing should move. Some mix portland cement in with the sand and after watering it hardens to help hold everything together, but not so much that you can't remove if needed.
 
PoolGate said:
Can you post pics? What you describe is how block floors go down. They sit on a layer of sand and more sand is brushed into the cracks. Most outdoor floors are done this way. If you grout it, the grout will crack and fairly quickly. It is not the way to do outdoor tile and I am surprised he suggested grouting at all. I don't understand the cleaning once a month angle. Most of these tile floors look great year after year.
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IMG_5622.jpg
I will first address the biggest concern right now since the deck has already been laid: I am having a hard time figuring out how to add photos! The first photo above shows the "brown brick" that used to be my entire deck, so it is being considered as "concrete". IMG_5619.jpg the second photo is the marble tile that has been laid already, "on sand" with all of these "gaps" showing this thirIMG_5623.jpgd photo is the "steps from my boat dock to the pool deck"... it was done with "thin set and grout"

SO: there is a guy here now giving us pricing for inside house marble and he says he does pool deck as well. We showed him the current deck and he told us: When you begin with a "concrete base" you should ALWAYS use thin set and grout it to keep it stable for life. When you begin with a "sand base" you continue with sand and then place the marble. He is saying they told us to put the sand on the concrete and not use thin set because it is a much easier and faster way to do it. I don't have the knowledge to know if this is true? ALL I KNOW is that I LOVE the look of the steps from the dock to the deck, which is thin set and grout! I do NOT like this "new sand look"... the tiles don't come together nicely, there are gaps and the gaps are filled with black dirt.. it is not pretty, I can't imagine why anyone would want this sand technique?? ugh....

Now my pool guy told me we can put "grout" in the "sand marble placed tiles" if we want, but it is going to crack and need replacing about every 2-3 years. So my confusion now is WHY didn't we just do thin set and grout from the beginning?????
 
i don't know what to really tell you because we all have opinions. my 2 cents is coming from being around masons my entire life and seeing thier work. work which is held with alot of respect in my area, but again opinions.

ur inside marble guy. saying you have to use thin set to stick and grout when u have a concrete base. true and not true. depends on thickness of material and weight. pavers. you sit em right on the concrete base and you sand them then. period. i can show u pics of jobs that are over 20 years old and they are flat as can be. yes the sand had to be redone, but the one i'm thinknig of right now did new sand after 16 years! and it's in full elements. not covered.

so to say if u start with oncrete base you have to thin set down and grout. not true.

how thick is ur material? paver thickness? tile thickness?

i know for sure i would not grout all ur seams if the material is not under cover. you will be redoing that grout often. maybe you won't who knows, but if i put money on it you will be and getting al lthe grout out will be a pain. most likely via blades which will take a ton of time. or if it's really cracked and wet it will jsut pop out.

just my opinion. ur pics of the material not sanded yet looks like with sand it would be fine. once that sand is in as long as the full perimeter is locked in place they won't move.
 
Hi Jim... my husband just measured these marble tiles, they are one inch and 1/8 thick. My husband said these are not pavers... he's upset so I don't want to ask him what a paver is :) He is concerned about the marble tiles moving... I am most concerned about the look: I want it to look like the "steps from my dock" not like the photos I have sent instead, which have very black gaps. The "final sand" has not been placed. I am told the whole deck will be steam cleaned, then more sand and water, the sand will sort of harden and will keep the tiles from moving. I asked will the "dirt and outside tree debris that drops" be able to get into the gaps and I was told yes. I don't mean to sound rude and judgmental about my feelings, I'm not judging the work, I'm judging the "end result look"... I just can't seem to understand why someone would want the marble tile look I have shown in photo #2 instead of the look I have in photo #3, which are the steps that have been thin set and grouted? My husband is saying most people do not build their pools and put a 4 inch cement floor FIRST before they put their deck.. he did this when he built this house, so with that said, he is saying it should have been replaced with my marble tile choice and thin set and grout.. I'm sorry for still being confused and please again, I don't want to be perceived as rude, I just only know what look I like
 
Those are pavers, not tile. The usual method for pavers is sand and not mortar/grout. You installer is installing them correctly. I know of no pool decks that have grout but maybe they do it more in other areas. My neighbor has a travertine deck very similar to your picture and it looks fantastic (sand only). I guess you have a misunderstanding between you and your contractor for what you wanted as a finished product.

The only advice that I will offer is that since what your contractor did is usual/normal for pavers and looks to be installed correctly so I would not expect him to replace everything with a different product for no charge. From what I see you are on the hook for some of the change fees if you decide to go with a grout method. I cannot imagine what was said that you did not understand that this was how it would look when finished. Many people love this look. Didn't you see any sample decks or at least a picture?
 
I'll also add that you are not going to be happy with that deck if he grouts those pavers. They are not designed to be grouted and the grout lines will not be even since the stone has variations on the edges.
 

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sorry.. you are speaking to an RN.. I don't know anything about this stuff.. but I think you are asking me if they "demo" meaning did they demolish it first? The answer is NO. I have photos of the brown brick deck but this site says they are too large to post. If you look at the very first photo you will see the base board which is brown brick against the new white marble tile... the whole deck was this brown brick. They simply came in with TONS of sand.. .leveled it out, and started plopping down the marble tiles (not pavers) two feet by one foot.. and stepped on them to make them flat.

- - - Updated - - -

yes, KIngzero, I did understand that part.. he told me it is great because if one tile becomes damaged, it is easily removed and replaced. That's a good ability, but the prettiness of the look is what I am unhappy with
 
If you like the steps (and the pool decking concrete is solid), then certainly thinset and grout them the way you want them to look. Most travertine that is put down with thinset are less then 1/2 inch thick. Your 1.25 inch will be a little more difficult to grout but doable.
 
I agree with the original poster that mortared and grouted is better. It's clean and solid. However, many people do set on sand with no mortar or grout. Typically, you want pavers that are at least 2" thick for a good result. 1" pavers are too thin to get good stability on sand.

There was definitely a miscommunication between the installer and customer. When contracting, never assume what will be done. Always be clear about expectations.

At this point, it won't be too hard to remove the pavers and redo them as you like.

Mortar and grout costs more plus the cost of the removal and original installation means that you will have to negotiate what it will cost to redo it.
 
Thanks for the response Amy. So they did not remove any of the brown bricks, they just put a bed of sand on top of them then laid these pavers? It seems like that would have caused drainage issues with your pool since the coping level would have been level with the bricks?

What I am trying to get at is this - if there was a concrete base that was properly installed, then they could have used thinset and grout and honestly that would have been my preferred installation. It is rare because it is more costly in new construction to do an entire concrete base then lay the pavers so few people go that route. But we routinely put pavers on concrete patios and lead walks with thinset and grout, so I feel like that should have been a conversation up front to decide which installation method you wanted.
 
Hi PoolGate :) No, we didn't see anything before. This is our pool guy for years and when he told my husband they were going to place new marble with sand my husband had no idea about that and said no, it should be with thin set and grout and the pool guy said no, as you have said, it is done with sand, so my husband said ok. We never asked to see it first, our bad! I feel like I am the only person in a very distant world... through my eyes, photo number 2 shows a floor that looks like I need to get on my hands and knees and clean the "black" area where there is "no grout". I would be so much happier if I could see through what seems to be "every one" else eyes, which see this as beautiful... I appreciate everyone's responses back!
 
Hi Dock :) Ok, let me follow your post in order. No, they never removed a single brown brick (I guess that is a paver?). The FIRST thing the pool guy did was come in the DAY AFTER I gave him the check in full, and emptied the pool. Then he removed the brown brick coping. Then he put thin set and laid the coping and one border of marble. After that.. not sure of the order... I think I remember he put the small tiles on the inside of the upper part of the pool and built the waterfall. Then he came with tons of sand and leveled it and put all the rest of the marble. I realize NOW after typing this that of course, indeed they DID remove some brick, but it was only the coping and first row of marble and now I remember it is because he wanted it all to be flush. Sorry for the memory issue but we started this JUNE 8th and it is not done yet.

Now to reply to your second paragraph, my husband TOTALLY agrees! He is proud of how he built this home, it is even on pilings... he seems to always say that and smile, I guess most don't do that... this house is over 30 years old and it had a four inch poured concrete base properly installed followed with brick pavers that were thin set. NOW we decided to redo everything and we chose marble which is 24" x 12" and 1 1/8 thick. He wanted this deck laid with thin set and grout... the pool guy talked him out of it. He didn't know anything about "the new way" of sand, so he trusted him and said ok. It is truly OUR BAD for not educating ourselves it seems and for NOT being totally CLEAR with any questions. Trust me, I get this now because I have another question regarding "pool finish".. my guy doesn't want to use diamond brite but wants to use Marquis series instead... he tells us because diamond brite does NOT warranty their products any longer for 10 years. I told him the ONLY THING I care about is the color... the rest of how the pool got there and the deck I didn't know anything about to comment... so he took me to 5 pools but they all only had the ONE single color and now he says I have to sign a paper that I take FULL responsibility for the chosen color. When I asked him if I could see the invoices of the 5 pools to be sure each pool had actually documented the color and brand, he said he never writes that or keeps that information... so this is all a LESSON in retrospect.. and a lesson moving forward
 
pool gate, you are correct about the variations on the edges, and everyone is correct you do NOT grout this marble which has been "laid on sand, which was poured over concrete slab"... so all of this is now out of the question. We have phoned 4 random marble places that sell marble and ALL FOUR told us, if you "already have" a concrete slab, you ONLY want to put marble down with thin set. If you don't have concrete and you only have dirt, just use the sand technique. So, we have 4 inch concrete, now with "poured white sand that we paid for" on top of the concrete and marble now on top of that. We are going to complete the job and be done with it... OR.. pay someone else to remove almost 3,000 sq ft of this marble and remove the sand and relay the marble using thin set. Only two choices available, THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR THEIR HELP!!!!!!!
 
duraleigh said:
If you like the steps (and the pool decking concrete is solid), then certainly thinset and grout them the way you want them to look. Most travertine that is put down with thinset are less then 1/2 inch thick. Your 1.25 inch will be a little more difficult to grout but doable.
Click to expand...

You are right! The four places we called said it is actually "preferable" not to have it 1 1/8" thick! We could have purchased 1/2 or 3/4 inch marble.. saved some money there too... BUT.. when doing "sand technique" the larger tile is preferred.

thanks
 

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