Polaris PB4SQ Suction Leak

[wdsheffer]

I’d like to get some guidance for refitting the suction hose to my booster pump (Polaris PB4SQ). My pressure side cleaner (Polaris 380, I think) has been blowing bubbles and I noticed the concrete is wet under the booster inlet fitting.

I pulled the drain plug, unscrewed the compression collar (correct term?), and pulled the hose. Everything looked and felt solid and clean, so I put on a new light layer of lube and reassembled it. After running the main pump for a while with the booster off, I saw a slow drip, apparently from the threaded fitting that enters the pump housing which I had not touched.

I want to remove/clean/tape/reinstall it, but I’m not sure exactly what materials and methods are required here. I see white on the threads, which I take to be Teflon tape, but I also see some kind of putty. Would someone use plumber’s putty on this? I’m hoping it’s not epoxy putty that someone was trying to use to fix this leak.

So I guess the short question is, do I need anything other than Teflon tape to reinstall this fitting? I have not tried to remove it yet.

 

[ajw22]

Page 11 in https://cdn.fluidrausa.com/-/media/...4300.pdf?rev=7e3f9183dd3e4f9eaba4a736a1cba1e1

 

[wdsheffer]

Page 11 in https://cdn.fluidrausa.com/-/media/...4300.pdf?rev=7e3f9183dd3e4f9eaba4a736a1cba1e1

Awesome! Thanks for the link. Still so ignorant on all this, it didn’t occur to me that plumbing would be in the pump manual.

I’ve got what I need then. God willing, the fitting isn’t broken.

 

[wdsheffer]

Well, I got the threaded fitting out, old teflon tape came off easily, threads seemed clean (to the layman’s eye) male and female, new tape on, hand tightened plus about 1/8 - 1/4 turn by wrench. With the booster off, but the main pump back on, there’s again a slow drip. Might be a couple minutes between drips. I don’t want to go cranking much more with the wrench.

1. Is it typical or a common problem to have a slow drop here?
2. Is there a simple fix besides what I’ve done here? Additional wraps of teflon tape?
3. Does a leak of this magnitude seem a likely culprit for a lot of bubbles in the Polaris cleaner?

There’s also air in the pool returns, and I keep wondering if air in the Polaris system might just be because the booster is pulling air from the pool return plumbing. But I wanted to check this first.

 

[ajw22]

1. Is it typical or a common problem to have a slow drop here?
2. Is there a simple fix besides what I’ve done here? Additional wraps of teflon tape?
3. Does a leak of this magnitude seem a likely culprit for a lot of bubbles in the Polaris cleaner?

Maybe @1poolman1 has some tricks up his sleeve.

There’s also air in the pool returns, and I keep wondering if air in the Polaris system might just be because the booster is pulling air from the pool return plumbing. But I wanted to check this first.

I would suspect the air is coming from the main filter pump.

How does the water in the pump basket look?

Post pics of your equipment .

 

[wdsheffer]

This week I replaced the o-rings and cleaned up the seats on the basket lid and drain plug. Got in the habit of bringing water to refill the basket after cleaning, and opening the filter's air-relief valve when starting the pump back up. Looks great now. A lot less air dancing under the lid. I've never been able to see air flowing through the basket. Still lots of bubbles in the returns though


Today I refitted the suction hose for the booster as described above, then started soap testing the suction side of the main pump.

This diverter is normally set to 100% pool, and there are bubbles in the return. I moved it to 100% spa, and there were still bubbles in the return. Best guess is that the leak is between this diverter and the pump. I soap tested the valve lid, handle, and ports, the glued joints on the pvc, the union, the pump suction port, and the drain plug. Didn't see any suds getting sucked in, and judging by the amount of air in the returns, it should be sucking pretty hard wherever the leak is. The pool level is pretty constant, as we have an automagic filler, and I've never seen a vortex in the skimmers that would allow air into the plumbing.

This pic is pretty typical of the air in the returns. Out of four returns, this is the nearest, the second one bubbles a little less, and the other two don't bubble much if at all. It baffles me that this amount of air is moving through the system, but I don't see it in the basket.

 

[1poolman1]

Well, I got the threaded fitting out, old teflon tape came off easily, threads seemed clean (to the layman’s eye) male and female, new tape on, hand tightened plus about 1/8 - 1/4 turn by wrench. With the booster off, but the main pump back on, there’s again a slow drip. Might be a couple minutes between drips. I don’t want to go cranking much more with the wrench.

1. Is it typical or a common problem to have a slow drop here?
2. Is there a simple fix besides what I’ve done here? Additional wraps of teflon tape?
3. Does a leak of this magnitude seem a likely culprit for a lot of bubbles in the Polaris cleaner?

There’s also air in the pool returns, and I keep wondering if air in the Polaris system might just be because the booster is pulling air from the pool return plumbing. But I wanted to check this first.
View attachment 525310

Not enough Teflon tape, especially if that fitting was used before. Try at least 5 or 6.

 

[wdsheffer]

Not enough Teflon tape, especially if that fitting was used before. Try at least 5 or 6.

Used 5 before, but maybe it wasn’t 5 layers thick anywhere, since it was spread over the length of the threads. I’ll pull it off and try again.

 

[wdsheffer]

View attachment 525319

So I was back out dickering with the suction side leak on the filter pump again. The pool return blows bubbles at seemingly the same rate whether the suction diverter valve is drawing entirely from the pool or entirely from the spa, so my thought had been the leak must be somewhere between the diverter and the pump, but I couldn't find a leak there last weekend. Maybe the pool suction plumbing is leaking at a similar rate as the spa suction plumbing? I'm a bit lost there. I decided to try move the lower valve on the pool suction side to pull from the main drain instead of skimmers (making changes slowly) and see if anything changed. It was not pretty. Immediately a bunch of air was getting sucked into the pump basket, and it had almost drained down before I opened the other sources back up and let it re-prime.

I've heard of someone having a problem with their main drain, and so they abandon it. Don't know how common that is or whether that's what's going on here. Also seems like, if that were the case, you'd alter the plumbing to prevent opening that valve, but no telling. At any rate, I don't think I could point to that for my suction side leak, unless air from the main drain plumbing is getting pulled through internal leaks in the diverter that selects between skimmers and main drain? Even that wouldn't explain why I still get bubbles when I move the other diverter to draw from the spa side only. Maybe that diverter has internal leaks too?

Any insight would be appreciated.

 

[ajw22]

How old is your suction diverter valve?

I would get an O ring kit for the diverter and replace all the O rings in it. Put Pool Lube on all the O rings as you install them. Also take a close look at the condition of the diverter when you have it open.

 

[1poolman1]

So I was back out dickering with the suction side leak on the filter pump again. The pool return blows bubbles at seemingly the same rate whether the suction diverter valve is drawing entirely from the pool or entirely from the spa, so my thought had been the leak must be somewhere between the diverter and the pump, but I couldn't find a leak there last weekend. Maybe the pool suction plumbing is leaking at a similar rate as the spa suction plumbing? I'm a bit lost there. I decided to try move the lower valve on the pool suction side to pull from the main drain instead of skimmers (making changes slowly) and see if anything changed. It was not pretty. Immediately a bunch of air was getting sucked into the pump basket, and it had almost drained down before I opened the other sources back up and let it re-prime.

I've heard of someone having a problem with their main drain, and so they abandon it. Don't know how common that is or whether that's what's going on here. Also seems like, if that were the case, you'd alter the plumbing to prevent opening that valve, but no telling. At any rate, I don't think I could point to that for my suction side leak, unless air from the main drain plumbing is getting pulled through internal leaks in the diverter that selects between skimmers and main drain? Even that wouldn't explain why I still get bubbles when I move the other diverter to draw from the spa side only. Maybe that diverter has internal leaks too?

Any insight would be appreciated.

Sounds like the maindrain line is very clogged. Trying to pull from there only made any small suction leak the only source for the pump and it did what you saw. Maindrain line is not full of air. Start with the O rings as has been suggested.
You should also remove that hi-temp union in the pump inlet and lube the O rings there as well, both the internal one and the one at the pump inlet. You may find that the union is loose in the pump as well.

 

[wdsheffer]

How old is your suction diverter valve?

I would get an O ring kit for the diverter and replace all the O rings in it. Put Pool Lube on all the O rings as you install them. Also take a close look at the condition of the diverter when you have it open.

No real idea how old any of this equipment is, only that the house was built in 94, so it’s no older than that. I’ll get o-ring kits for both those diverters.

You should also remove that hi-temp union in the pump inlet and lube the O rings there as well, both the internal one and the one at the pump inlet. You may find that the union is loose in the pump as well.

I’ll get the union too, but I’ll have to find an exploded view of the pump to understand what you mean about the union in the pump.

 

[wdsheffer]

That said, I have to backtrack on some earlier statements. I set about cycling through valve positions again, this time practicing a little pool owner’s patience.
1. When I had suction on spa-only and return also on spa-only, the spa returns blew bubbles… until they didn’t. I guess it took a few minutes to purge the air.
2. I also opened up the spa fountain valve and let it run along with the jets for a while no bubbles in the spa, and the air even disappeared from under the strainer lid on the pump. Okay, so no leak on the spa suction.
3. Next step was to open the suction from the pool skimmers so it was 50/50 pool/spa. Exercise patience. Still no bubbles in the spa return.
4. Then I switched to 100% pool suction - 100% spa return. More patience. Still no bubbles.
5. Only when I opened up the pool returns did I finally start seeing bubbles, and they were back full force.

My best guess is that going 100% spa suction and return eventually purged the spa returns of air. Why didn’t the air come back when I opened the pool suction? Maybe there WAS air coming in from the pool suction, but it had to accumulate in the spa return plumbing before it would emerge from the jets? I wasn’t going to try opening the pool returns while suction was spa-only long enough to make useful observations.

At any rate, I guess that eliminates the spa suction as the culprit. We’ll see what happens when I re-seal those valves.

 

[1poolman1]

No real idea how old any of this equipment is, only that the house was built in 94, so it’s no older than that. I’ll get o-ring kits for both those diverters.

I’ll get the union too, but I’ll have to find an exploded view of the pump to understand what you mean about the union in the pump.

Its the way the plumbing is connected to both the pump inlet and outlet. Those are hi-temp pump unions. They seal with both internal and external O rings.

 

[wdsheffer]

I’ve been dealing with bubbles in the pool return for over a year, as mentioned in this thread: Polaris PB4SQ Suction Leak

I first followed the wisdom that bubbles are a suction-side problem and I set about replacing o-rings, tightening lids, watching soap bubbles, etc. All to no avail.

A buddy who used to do pool maintenance pointed out there’s no way that amount of bubbling was from a suction-side leak, because the filter pump would never have been able to pull a prime, which it did. So it had to be pressure-side.

Wouldn’t you know it, my Hayward puck chlorinator is essentially a Venturi injector. And digging into the lid yesterday, I see a kink in the o-ring, quite possibly letting the Venturi draw air. I straightened out the kink and carefully reinstalled the lid, et voila, the bubbles are gone.

I’ve got a new o-ring on order, and just wanted this out there for posterity, that bubbles in the returns CAN BE caused by a pressure-side leak.

(Now I have to figure out why fixing that leak caused my spa water level to draw down by something like 12 inches overnight, assuming they’re related. )

 

[1poolman1]

I’ve been dealing with bubbles in the pool return for over a year, as mentioned in this thread: Polaris PB4SQ Suction Leak

I first followed the wisdom that bubbles are a suction-side problem and I set about replacing o-rings, tightening lids, watching soap bubbles, etc. All to no avail.

A buddy who used to do pool maintenance pointed out there’s no way that amount of bubbling was from a suction-side leak, because the filter pump would never have been able to pull a prime, which it did. So it had to be pressure-side.

Wouldn’t you know it, my Hayward puck chlorinator is essentially a Venturi injector. And digging into the lid yesterday, I see a kink in the o-ring, quite possibly letting the Venturi draw air. I straightened out the kink and carefully reinstalled the lid, et voila, the bubbles are gone.

I’ve got a new o-ring on order, and just wanted this out there for posterity, that bubbles in the returns CAN BE caused by a pressure-side leak.

(Now I have to figure out why fixing that leak caused my spa water level to draw down by something like 12 inches overnight, assuming they’re related. )

The first thing you need to figure out is why you are using that heater-destroyer called a tablet feeder, especially with a MasterTemp and its very low plumbing. Get rid of it and get an SWG.
Do you have a raised spa? The tab feeder could have damaged a check valve, allowing water to drain.
Those feeders were designed for use on commercial pools where the pumps can run 24/7. Most municipalities now require that they be removed because of the issues with rising CYA and low pH that they cause.

 

[wdsheffer]

The first thing you need to figure out is why you are using that heater-destroyer called a tablet feeder, especially with a MasterTemp and its very low plumbing. Get rid of it and get an SWG.
Do you have a raised spa? The tab feeder could have damaged a check valve, allowing water to drain.
Those feeders were designed for use on commercial pools where the pumps can run 24/7. Most municipalities now require that they be removed because of the issues with rising CYA and low pH that they cause.

Thanks for the reply. The short answer is, the feeder came with the house. Longer answer: while I've mostly been using liquid chlorine since we bought the house in '23, the feeder has proven useful when out of town or when I'm happy to use up tablets to keep my CYA up. My pump does run 24/7, so I'm not particularly bothered by the prospect of backflow. I don't live on the west or east coast, and my local government doesn't worry itself too much about my pool equipment or the CYA content of my backwash. I am not motivated in the slightest to remove the feeder just for the sake of removing it. If it were removed as part of installing a SWG, that would be fine, but that's so expensive, I'm not actively contemplating it any more. When money falls into my lap, I'll look at it again. My issue though is not with the feeder (primarily). My issue is that I took it on faith that bubbles were solely caused by suction side leaks, which left me scratching my head after I had seemingly checked and rechecked every possible source of air. Had I gone ahead and checked o-rings on the pressure side, I would have had those bubbles gone long ago.

Yes, the spa is raised. I had been wondering how the plumbing might have pulled a suction on the spa jets, but you're right, gravity could have done it. I do keep the 3-way spa/pool return valve cracked partially open to spa to keep it overflowing/circulating, so if the power were off I could see it draining through there, but the power didn't go off last night. If the pump shut itself off for some reason, it went ahead and turned itself back on before I checked on it this morning. As far as I know, nothing changed in the system, other than sealing up the feeder, so it's a mystery to me. I opened the spa fountain valve for a few minutes this morning to refill the spa and set the 3-way return valve half-way between pool and spa, and I'll see what the water level looks like after work this evening.

 

[wdsheffer]

To follow up, the spa continued to drain into the pool, even with the 3-way return valve partially open to spa and the pump running 24 hrs. (100% spa would always refill the spa.) The check valve on the spa makeup line appears to be in good shape and free of debris. So not clear why the spa kept draining.

However, I WAS overdue to backwash my DE filter, waiting for The Pollening - Oak Edition to pass. I normally backwash at around 23 psi, dropping it to 18, but this time it was up to about 25, which I thought was within normal operating range. I backwashed today, and with pressure back down to 18 psi, the spa draining problem is magically gone. In fact, I no longer have to keep the 3-way return valve cracked open partially to spa for circulation. The makeup line actually provides adequate flow for good spillover from the spa now. Seems like it never used to before.

Maybe there was an odd equilibrium before with the air intrusion, but sealing that up threw it out of whack, or maybe it was a total coincidence that the draining started the day I sealed it up, and monkeying with valves eventually cleared that up that was gone the restricted pressure from the filter couldn’t push against the elevation difference in the spa return line unless the return valve was on 100% spa? I guess we’ll see if the draining returns when the filter pressure drop increases again.