Plumbing discovery and subsequent closing dilemma

[swing4terps]

Second year with inherited 1980s Sylvan which I hope to close myself this year after having pool company do it last year under my watchful eye. I had to order a new safety cover so I’ve been holding out on closing. Got word the cover will be in Wednesday so I need to close this weekend. I’m comfortable with all the steps re: plumbing and blowing out lines. At least I thought I was...

I installed a new pump in the Spring and decided to re-plumb at the same time. Everything is now much cleaner and condensed in my garage. I’ve attached a pic of current setup. To summarize, 2 skimmer lines (main drains tied in) and 2 return lines.

I was doing some testing last week to prepare for blowing of lines, and was surprised when closing of one side of the return 3-way stopped water flow through the system. When plumbing I had incorrectly assumed 1 return line was for SE return, the other line for the DE return. I did some research to try to determine what might be causing this and came across mention of the “solar recirculating system” plumbed in Anthony/Sylvan pools. This made some sense as I remembered this pool used to have a propane heater. But I still couldn’t figure out why water flow was stopped if water should be flowing out of the DE main drain via the recirculating system. After thinking it through I realized that those two things on each side of the main drain in the DE that I never knew what they were...returns (I think). It looks like they’ve been plugged with the Hayward flush plugs, probably since the heater was removed.

I’m assuming water flow to these was also shut off which explains the messy pressure side plumbing with numerous ball and gate valves. Which leads to my problem...All summer long I was running my return valve on mix which has introduced water into this plumbing.

So...

1) Would you agree based on this description they are in fact returns?
2) If so, what do I do about freeze protection for these lines? Water is quite cold at this point, so swimming down there is out of the question. I could disconnect unions and suck some water out, but then what?

Thanks everyone.

 

[Catanzaro]

Swing4terps:

I installed a new pump in the Spring and decided to re-plumb at the same time. Everything is now much cleaner and condensed in my garage. I’ve attached a pic of current setup. To summarize, 2 skimmer lines (main drains tied in) and 2 return lines.

Sorry about your dilemma, but I am still confused after reading your post. Maybe more pictures of the setup & plumbing would help. Go to the links below and you will see a successful closing in a different fashion. You could purchase the black expandable plugs where an air compressor can be hooked up. Very simple, blow air through the system at the skimmer level (one at a time). Blow air through the main drain(s) until bubbling occurs for at least one minute, if not a little longer. Then blow air from the skimmers back to the pump area (but remove the lid first so water can come out and also use a shop vac to siphon water at the same time with a second hand). This will clear the suction side of the pool. Remember water being pulled is usually from the skimmers and main drain.

Regarding your 2 returns, I would need more information on your filter. You could place another plug in the pump housing which goes to the filter and back to the returns and blow air this way. At least you would have all the returns, main drains and skimmers closed.

At this point, you will know exactly which plumbing goes where. I helped out a friend figure out all his plumbing on a very lousy constructed system, in where the valves were defective just by blowing air through the pipes.

I did some research to try to determine what might be causing this and came across mention of the “solar recirculating system” plumbed in Anthony/Sylvan pools.

Maybe somehow your plumbing is linked together so water can circulate back in the pool. I have something in my heating system in where within seconds hot water is out of the faucet and somehow water is returned to the holding tank throughout the day, pump, etc. Same concept, but I do have some understanding on what you have. But in the end, the only thing you need to do is use air to remove water and close the other side. No need to jump in the pool as this is not necessary.

The concept of closing an in ground swimming pool

Thinking about closing my own pool but have some concerns

Winter Pool Plug with Valve for 1-1/2 Inch Fitting, with Blow Thru Valve - No. 10 | AQWPV-10

I’m assuming water flow to these was also shut off which explains the messy pressure side plumbing with numerous ball and gate valves. Which leads to my problem...All summer long I was running my return valve on mix which has introduced water into this plumbing.

Maybe, next year you have to basically put everything back the way it was. Get the pool closed for now as this is your main priority.

1) Would you agree based on this description they are in fact returns?

Hard to tell on this one.

2) If so, what do I do about freeze protection for these lines? Water is quite cold at this point, so swimming down there is out of the question. I could disconnect unions and suck some water out, but then what?

No need to dive in the pool if you are using the blow out plugs with an air compressor. The air is locked in the system for the main drain. You could also after closing the skimmers and returns, go back to the plumbing and try to add antifreeze or RV antifreeze ($5 at Home Depot) as I was there the other day.

In summary, your whole goal now to is remove water with air from your lines. You can easily do it if you were able to cut, glue pipes, etc. as it appears you are very handy. Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[swing4terps]

Very much appreciate the detailed reply. I’m good with everything on the suction side. On the return side I have the 3-way valve which goes to two return lines. One line is for both of my wall returns. I can close off the opposite side, blow out, and plug.

I believe the other line goes to two floor returns in my deep end. These floor returns have been plugged since I bought the house, which explains the stoppage of flow through the system when I was testing and had the wall return line closed. However, all summer, before I knew what the 2nd return line was, I’ve had both lines open on the 3-way, introducing water into the line for the floor returns. I could blow air into this line until the cows come home, but there’s nowhere for the water to go and the pressure isn’t going to force all the water 15ft. uphill and out. So, it would seem my only solution for this winter is to try to get antifreeze into this line. The question is how much antifreeze and will however much be a problem when opening in the Spring and I swim down and try to unplug these returns?

 

[Catanzaro]

On the return side I have the 3-way valve which goes to two return lines. One line is for both of my wall returns. I can close off the opposite side, blow out, and plug.

Can you take a picture of this valve, unless already there as I can not tell.

I believe the other line goes to two floor returns in my deep end. These floor returns have been plugged since I bought the house, which explains the stoppage of flow through the system when I was testing and had the wall return line closed.

Things are starting to make more sense, but still how are these floor drains plugged? You state diving into the water, so I am assuming you have them plugged with either threaded plugs or black expandable plugs (please explain). If I am following you correctly, you have 2 floor drains that are plugged in the pool. Well, this is fairly simple. Figure out a way to get antifreeze in the lines, but before you do this, siphon some water out of these 2 lines. Or siphon the water completely, and then add antifreeze. The easiest way to do this would be to create another air lock in the system, but considering you plugged them (or someone did), this is not an option. In order to do this, you would need a shutoff valve or somehow quickly plug, or use a blow through valve.

Let's get this figured out!

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PS: The whole concept of winterizing is to remove enough water so if water does freeze and expands, that plumbing is not damaged. When there is residual water in the system, antifreeze is extra insurance (bottom line). All systems should be designed with unions, shutoff valves, and even a 3-way T with a threaded cap for easy access. Unfortunately, most pool builders do not think ahead.

 

[swing4terps]

Can you take a picture of this valve, unless already there as I can not tell.

In the picture in my original post there are two 3-ways. The one on the left is the pressure side. The middle port is the inlet (from filter). The port in the front is for both of my wall returns. The port in the back leads to two floor returns in the deep end. Until recently I did not know what this line was for.

Things are starting to make more sense, but still how are these floor drains plugged? You state diving into the water, so I am assuming you have them plugged with either threaded plugs or black expandable plugs (please explain). If I am following you correctly, you have 2 floor drains that are plugged in the pool.

The floor RETURNS (not to be confused with main drains) are plugged with Hayward threaded flush mount plugs. I didn’t recognize them as such until I was doing research surrounding this issue. The pool was at one time (before my ownership) heated and I’m assuming someone swam down and plugged them after the heater was disconnected.

I’d imagine I can disconnect the union on this line and suck some of the water out with a shop vac but I don’t think it’ll get much given how far (rise and run) this line is going. I also should be able to pour antifreeze in and use a shop vac to blow it and try to help distribute through the line all the way to the bottom of the pool.

The question is how much antifreeze would I need to be protected with approximately 30-40 feet of pipe filled with water. If in the Spring I swim down and unplug these returns and antifreeze flows into the pool, I’m assuming that’s not a problem?

I’m open to any other suggestions that do not include swimming in the currently 50 degree water.

 

[Catanzaro]

I’d imagine I can disconnect the union on this line and suck some of the water out with a shop vac but I don’t think it’ll get much given how far (rise and run) this line is going. I also should be able to pour antifreeze in and use a shop vac to blow it and try to help distribute through the line all the way to the bottom of the pool

Yes, this exactly what you want to do. Suck some water out with a shop vac and then pour one gallon of antifreeze. If you want to be super safe, then 2 gallons will be sufficient. The gallons tell you how much for how long and what size plumbing if I remember. No need to blow the antifreeze down as it will mix properly. You could give it a few seconds, but nothing too long as the other side is capped. That is it and close the pool.

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The question is how much antifreeze would I need to be protected with approximately 30-40 feet of pipe filled with water. If in the Spring I swim down and unplug these returns and antifreeze flows into the pool, I’m assuming that’s not a problem?

No, not a problem. Antifreeze is biodegradable.

 

[PoolguyinCT]

With out a photo -- flush mount plugs in floor, not housed in a sump like MD??

Sounds like relief ports to protect from pool float or for ground water remediation & not part of circulation system at all.
Let's see em'
Ray

 

[swing4terps]

With out a photo -- flush mount plugs in floor, not housed in a sump like MD??

Sounds like relief ports to protect from pool float or for ground water remediation & not part of circulation system at all.
Let's see em'
Ray

I’m not able to get a pic at the moment but they look just like this. They sit about two feet on either side of the main drain. Only have them in the deep end.

https://www.amazon.com/Hayward-SP1022B-2-Inch-Flush-Plug/dp/B002EL3YBU

I guess if I pour antifreeze in the line and don’t see any red/pink pool water than my assumption that they’re plugged returns still stands. If I see red coming from the main drain, then I guess they are not returns. I’m doubtful the main drain is also part of a “recirculation” loop because I don’t have the ability to close off the main drain specifically either at the skimmer or the pad.

 

[swing4terps]

With out a photo -- flush mount plugs in floor, not housed in a sump like MD??

Sounds like relief ports to protect from pool float or for ground water remediation & not part of circulation system at all.
Let's see em'
Ray

And as I look further into your suggestion, I find this which seems to be spot on. Now I’m more confused than ever.

http://blog.poolcenter.com/article.aspx?articleid=6301

 

[PoolguyinCT]

I saw your other thread-- & the piping mess you cleaned up & mimicked, don't blame ya on it for following the lay out.. just because the were tied to return side doesn't mean that's correct & it was a usda butcher in there before you..

The link you posted is what I was getting at, the flush plugs aren't visible unless your plaster is shot..

That is a cookie cutter builder & rather predictable.

 

[swing4terps]

Bumping this in case anyone else may have any helpful input. I’ve been thinking about this off and on throughout the winter. Short of getting ahold of an endoscope/plumbing camera, I can’t make any sense out of this. Hoping to open the pool in the next week or so.

 

[Catanzaro]

Can you please explain what you are looking for? Does the pool pluming, filter, etc. work? Or are there restrictions? Thanks!

 

[swing4terps]

Can you please explain what you are looking for? Does the pool pluming, filter, etc. work? Or are there restrictions? Thanks!

I've been pretty lengthy in previous posts, so I'll try to be as brief as possible. Last Spring I did a replumb (pictured above). Pictures of old plumbing in my other post here.

Re-plumb for new pump

I made the mistake of following the old plumbing in my replumb. Assumed there were two suction and two pressure lines. On pressure side I assumed there was one line for each of my two returns. After replumb I discovered that closing one side of the pressure-side three-way I installed stops flow through the system. I've been unable to determine why (what this line is for). I have a 1980s A&S plaster pool that was at one time was propane heated. At this point I can think of two possibilites.

1) There is a blockage (not likely on pressure side)
2) This line was purposely closed/blocked off (Don't think this is the case either. If you look at the old plumbing the single return line splits prior to two gate valves. The line in the back is the line in question. You would think someone would just remove it from the system altogether if not in use.)

I'm hoping someone familair with old A&S designs knows what this line in question may be/was for.

 

[Catanzaro]

My friend had a pool with a lot of plumbing. We figured out everything by working backwards and pushing air through the system, both on the suction and return side. Eventually we came to the realization that the shut off valves were plumbed backwards (some of them). Eventually, he had everything redone and now the pool operates smoothly. In order to figure out how your system is plumbed, move air from the equipment pad, lines, skimmer, etc., any which way you can. Hope this helps.

 

[PoolguyinCT]

I can’t follow this thread, but..


Most AS from that era, have or had a separation tank plumbed to a separate riser in the return branch.

I cap them at the riser after disposing of the separation tank & it is just a return.

The “solar circulation” loop is a set of manifolds & valves , to return through the MD while pulling from the skimmer..

Catanzaro- if your fiend had a concrete pool, particularly in NJ penn area, I’m guessing it was an AS with a md return manifold, & would look like a train wreck until you become familiar with them.

 

[Catanzaro]

Catanzaro- if your fiend had a concrete pool, particularly in NJ penn area, I’m guessing it was an AS with a md return manifold, & would look like a train wreck until you become familiar with them.

Thanks Ray! No, my friend has a liner pool and still does. He had a in floor cleaning system (2 pop up heads) that were removed completely during the Pentair shut off valve replacement. We figured out the 4 lines (suction side) and many lines (return side) where they went merely by moving air through the system with the cyclone. That simple. Although, the spill over spa, quite different has a suction side and pull side (one must be careful not to drain the spa) and run the pump dry. I locked the shut off valve on purpose not to drain the pump. Same situation, as swing4terps can figure out his plumbing by using "air movement" as his friend.

 

[swing4terps]

Most AS from that era, have or had a separation tank plumbed to a separate riser in the return branch.

I cap them at the riser after disposing of the separation tank & it is just a return.

The “solar circulation” loop is a set of manifolds & valves , to return through the MD while pulling from the skimmer..

I’m not familiar with separation tanks,
but I did some quick reading and it seems the outlet on these would go straight back to the pool. This would make sense with the plumbing setup I had, but doesn’t make sense as to why water or air (tried blowing air through at closing) won’t pass through this line.

I’m going to do some more air tests when I open, but I’m trying to avoid spending too much time trying to diagnose this issue and delaying getting things started.

I remember when I discovered water would not flow through this line I was trying to pull from both SE and DE drains/skimmers. Is it possible this line could be for a circulation loop that can only pull from SE and dispense in the DE? Trying to both pull and push water through the DE drain could cause a flow stoppage, no?