Planning for SWG Install - Questions

[delirium330]

Hi all, I'm just starting down the road of evaluating the purchase of a SWG. Before I do that I wanted to ask a few questions. I am currently eyeing a CircuPool RJ20 (rated for 20k gallons). Most of my questions are pumping and equipment related, but I can shift over a few of the SWG specific questions to the SWG section of the forum if appropriate.

1 - My pool is kidney shaped with sloping depth so getting a gallons estimate is tricky. I think it is around 14k gallons (+/- 5k gallons). Would the RJ20 rated for 20k gallons be sufficient, or safer to jump to the RJ30 rated at 30k gallons? Price difference is about 10% increase.

2 - I downloaded the install manual to see how it goes in. See my below picture of my equipment pad. Easy as removing my inline chlorine tab holder? Note that the inline tab holder isn't in use and hasn't been for years. I manually add chlorine using the HASA jugs from the pool store. It looks like there isn't enough space with existing plumbing to just swap out the inline chlorine tab hopper for the SWG unit. Anyone has pictures of creative plumbing to solve for this? My brother and I installed the current VS pump and all of the white plumbing is what we did, i.e., we're not novices, but seems tricky to create a new section to house the SWG in what is currently a very tight area (the distance of the red line is 6 inches).

3 - The VS pump is a Pentair, which has a cord running out of it to the solar heating module. It looks like in the install instructions, the SWG module needs to plug into the pump as well? Not sure how this would work.

4 - Where does the pipe in my picture labeled PIPE A go?

Thanks! I'm located in Sacramento if there are any retirees that would want to come over and offer up opinions and advice!

 

[mknauss]

You want your SWCG to be a minimum of 2x your pool volume, or like me, close to 6X!

Also - check to be sure a Circupool will work with the Pentair Intelliflo.

You do need enough straight line piping to get the cell and flow switch in. If you use a SWCG that has a seperate flow switch it can be after the cell so that the cell accounts for a portion of the 12" of straight line pipe before the flow switch. A Pentair SWCG has the flow switch integrated with the cell so you need 12" of straight pipe before the cell.

The SWCG can be mounted vertically. So if you can put in a vertical loop to contain the SWCG that is an idea.

Good luck!

 

[Jimrahbe]

D,

A 20K SWCG is too small. We always recommend at least 2 x the pool volume. So in your case I would go with the 30K cell as a minimum... If this were my pool, I would be looking at a 40K cell...

I don't think the cell plugs into your pump. There is nothing to connect it to... What kind of solar controller do you have? It might have an output for controlling a SWCG.

Keep in mind that the SWCG must be disconnected from power if the pump is not running. This is harder to do with a VS pump as it should have constant power.

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.

 

[delirium330]

You want your SWCG to be a minimum of 2x your pool volume, or like me, close to 6X!

Also - check to be sure a Circupool will work with the Pentair Intelliflo.

You do need enough straight line piping to get the cell and flow switch in. If you use a SWCG that has a seperate flow switch it can be after the cell so that the cell accounts for a portion of the 12" of straight line pipe before the flow switch. A Pentair SWCG has the flow switch integrated with the cell so you need 12" of straight pipe before the cell.

The SWCG can be mounted vertically. So if you can put in a vertical loop to contain the SWCG that is an idea.

Good luck!

Mknauss, thanks for the advice. I like the idea of a vertical loop and mounting the SWCG vertically within the loop. Seems like that would be my only option if I want to keep the space tidy in my current setup. Any issue with water flow/pressure etc. at this location in my system pushing the water up about 12-24 inches? I wouldn't think so, but thought I would check all the boxes here.

Also, thank you and Jimrahbe for the advice on sizing, I should have done some better initial research, but will definitely aim for 2x or 3x my 14k gallons estimate.

I'm sure there is a lot of info. out there on the different SWCG brands. I was primarily using the website Welcome to Discount Salt Pool - Saltwater Chlorine Generators - Chlorinators to look at different models and can't help but be annoyed by the Pentair warranty. I assume setup and integration of a Pentair model would fit nicely with my existing setup. I'm currently running a STA-RITE/Pentair IntelliPro VS Pump and I've got a Pentair SolarTouch solar controller. In browsing the SolarTouch user manual and IntelliPro user manual I don't see anything related to SWCG integration.

 

[mknauss]

The height of the loop will be no issue. It will add to TDH - but minimally.

As far as integration, it may not be possible with the Sta-rite lline from Pentair. I would suggest calling Pentair or InyoPools to see what they say. Be sure to have model numbers of your pump and controller.

There are some good people on this forum when it comes to integration of equipment so will wait to see what they say.

Take care.

 

[delirium330]

Thanks again for the input. If a moderator feels like this would be better in the SWCG area please feel free to move it. After some research I like the idea of going with the Hayward ARQ15 (40k gallons). From the install instructions it looks pretty simple in that I just need to mount it, power it from the timer control box, and run 1 wire to the cell and another 1 wire to the flow switch. That simple?

From a plumbing perspective, are there any best practices in what I should do with my setup? I included another picture below with my current setup. Looks like I would have a few options on where to cut. My biggest question is where PIPE A in my picture is going? PIPE A is one of two pipes going into the ground after the filter/solar heated water comes down. The other pipe is pointed out with the orange arrow. I don't have a spa and I assume I should mount the SWCG right where the inline chlorinator is? From a plumbing best practices perspective, any input on where to make my cuts between the orange, green, blue, and purple cut lines? Was thinking easiest to cut the purple so I have a straight line down straight into the ground and maybe the orange line and put in a 90 degree turn and go up from there? My plan is to make a loop, then I would need to allow for the proper 12" straight line (which could include the cell) prior to the flow switch. Any thoughts on where to put that? Best to put in the first line going up the loop vertically or on the down line coming back down vertically? Thanks again for all the help.

 

[Jimrahbe]

d,

I'll bet if you look at the install manual, you will find that the power has to be removed from the controller, when the pump is not running. This is because you do not want the cell producing explosive gas when there is no water flow. Having the power removed from the control panel is the Primary safety device. The flow switch is the backup or secondary safety device.

With a VS pump, most users connect the cell controller to a separate timer that runs in sync with the pump's internal programming.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[kchinger]

d,

I'll bet if you look at the install manual, you will find that the power has to be removed from the controller, when the pump is not running. This is because you do not want the cell producing explosive gas when there is no water flow. Having the power removed from the control panel is the Primary safety device. The flow switch is the backup or secondary safety device.

With a VS pump, most users connect the cell controller to a separate timer that runs in sync with the pump's internal programming.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Without looking at it I'm pretty sure the manual for the circupool says with a variable speed you can give the cell power all the time.

Personally I'd probably get a 30k or 40k gallon circupool, order the vertical installation kit they sell. I'd probably wire it directly to power.

The flow switch will most likely fail safe, without knowing the exact properties.

The Circupool make so much more chlorine per gallon of rating than the others that I think you'd be fine with 30k, especially with a variable speed where increased pump run time is no big deal.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Without looking at it I'm pretty sure the manual for the circupool says with a variable speed you can give the cell power all the time.

Personally I'd probably get a 30k or 40k gallon circupool, order the vertical installation kit they sell. I'd probably wire it directly to power.

The flow switch will most likely fail safe, without knowing the exact properties.

The Circupool make so much more chlorine per gallon of rating than the others that I think you'd be fine with 30k, especially with a variable speed where increased pump run time is no big deal.

K,

While I don't care how you run your SWCG, it is never a good idea to advice other people to short cut a safety device. I realize the likelihood of an explosion is remote, but it is still possible. My advice is to do it right... and never have to worry about it.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[kchinger]

K,

While I don't care how you run your SWCG, it is never a good idea to advice other people to short cut a safety device. I realize the likelihood of an explosion is remote, but it is still possible. My advice is to do it right... and never have to worry about it.

Thanks,

Jim R.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gglMAA&usg=AFQjCNEPzBQwKscrBOXzYKQ6Agoot53S9Q

Page 8.

Thanks. Not a short cut, a valid install for a variable speed. And electrical controls is what I do for a living.

 

[Jimrahbe]

K,

Thanks for the feedback and link... I can say I am surprised as every other SWCG (Pentair, Hayward, and Jandy) specifically requires the power be removed from controller.

I must admit that I did not read the CircuPool manual and this is what happens when you "assume".

I do find it a little funny that with a single speed pump they advise you to connect to the timer, but with the VS pump they do not. If ok to run direct to power, why have the timer in the circuit at all..

Let's see if the "big boys" start adding this option to their manuals. I suspect not, just because it covers their rears...

Thanks again for the heads up...

Jim R.

 

[kchinger]

K,

Thanks for the feedback and link... I can say I am surprised as every other SWCG (Pentair, Hayward, and Jandy) specifically requires the power be removed from controller.

I must admit that I did not read the CircuPool manual and this is what happens when you "assume".

I do find it a little funny that with a single speed pump they advise you to connect to the timer, but with the VS pump they do not. If ok to run direct to power, why have the timer in the circuit at all..

Let's see if the "big boys" start adding this option to their manuals. I suspect not, just because it covers their rears...

Thanks again for the heads up...

Jim R.

I found it odd as well that they would suggest it that way on single/dual speed but not on variable speed, but if they say it's fine, I'd tend to trust the manufacturer to have done their due diligence. My best guess as to why is that they have some different programming in their controller that is normally their tertiary safety check. With the power check removed it becomes secondary and the flow switch becomes primary, so they still have backup. Also, like I said, it's much, much more likely for the flow switch to fail safe. It would most likely just come unplugged or get the wire cut, in which case (I know because mine was loose at first) it detects no flow. If it breaks internally it will almost certainly detect no flow. The only scenario I can come up with where the flow switch would detect flow when there isn't any is if PVC glue got on the switch and glued it closed, but that would be unlikely since the glue wouldn't still be wet when the water was flowing to close it. More likely to get stuck open.

My guesses for their programming are that the current and voltage in the cell would change enough that they could detect the build-up of gases and shut the cell down. I'd imagine the parameters look much different with flowing water versus stagnant water. Salt will go down, current will likely change, etc. I'm not a chemist so I don't know exactly how things would change as the gas started to build up. That part is all total speculation.

 

[JayWhite]

I am also in the process of installing a RJ45. I just replaced the pump motor with VS.

I am not an electrical/control specialist but I have been involved in safety analysis for refinery/petrochemical plants for decades. I do think what is in RJ install manual is not 100% appropriate. I quoted the related paragraph as below:"When used with variable-speed or other electronically controlled pumps, you may wish to wire the Control Module directly to your power source. This will allow the pump to determine when the Cell is energized or dormant by activation of the Flow Switch."

1. Is there an output signal from the SWG telling the cell is energized? I could not find this product feature from the manual.

2. If there is an output signal (or by detecting the current to cell), is the pump able to receive it and integrated into the programing? It could but may need buy additional control module.

3. I would agree if there is a flow switch to prevent cell from no flow which is fail on safe side, the location of SWG power source is not critical.

Conclusion: if there is no automatic control allowing pump determine when the Cell is energized, it is okay (or better) to install SWG cell after the timer. I would program pump running 24/7 and set timer on all the time. If I do need shut the pump down, let the timer take care of it and shut both pump and cell at the same time.

 

[Jimrahbe]

After thinking about this for a while, I now believe that the requirement to have the power removed from the cell controller, when the pump is not running, is really an attempt to make the system idiot proof...

It is very unlikely that the flow switch will fail in the closed position, but what about that idiot that does not understand what the flow switch is for???

I'll use me as the idiot in my example below, mainly because I have fit that description many times in the past...

So... my cell is not producing chlorine and I see that the low flow light is on... I quickly determine that the flow switch is bad, but I don't have the money to buy a new one, so I just hot wire the one I have to show "closed".. I am so proud of myself because my cell is now working. As time goes on, I forget that I have hot wired the flow switch... Everything is just fine for several months, but then, when the conditions are just right and with the pump off and the cell still running, the cell explodes!!!

I think the likelihood of my idiot scenario happening is much more likely than a flow switch itself being the direct cause of any dangerous issues..

Thanks,

Jim R. (AKA.. the idiot...)

 

[kchinger]

I am also in the process of installing a RJ45. I just replaced the pump motor with VS.

I am not an electrical/control specialist but I have been involved in safety analysis for refinery/petrochemical plants for decades. I do think what is in RJ install manual is not 100% appropriate. I quoted the related paragraph as below:"When used with variable-speed or other electronically controlled pumps, you may wish to wire the Control Module directly to your power source. This will allow the pump to determine when the Cell is energized or dormant by activation of the Flow Switch."

1. Is there an output signal from the SWG telling the cell is energized? I could not find this product feature from the manual.

2. If there is an output signal (or by detecting the current to cell), is the pump able to receive it and integrated into the programing? It could but may need buy additional control module.

3. I would agree if there is a flow switch to prevent cell from no flow which is fail on safe side, the location of SWG power source is not critical.

Conclusion: if there is no automatic control allowing pump determine when the Cell is energized, it is okay (or better) to install SWG cell after the timer. I would program pump running 24/7 and set timer on all the time. If I do need shut the pump down, let the timer take care of it and shut both pump and cell at the same time.

Their wording is poor but I'm pretty sure what they mean is "this will allow the pump (by way of pumping water) to determine when the cell is active by activating the flow switch (with the water)."

So the pump doesn't send an electrical signal, it sends a kind of signal by pumping water.

Ideally there would be an auxiliary contact on the motor that would enable you to drive power to the salt cell, either directly or with a relay and contactor, only when the motor was actually spinning. I don't know if that's a thing any motors have, I'm not super familiar with variable speed motors and controllers for pools.

 

[JayWhite]

Their wording is poor but I'm pretty sure what they mean is "this will allow the pump (by way of pumping water) to determine when the cell is active by activating the flow switch (with the water)."

So the pump doesn't send an electrical signal, it sends a kind of signal by pumping water.

Ideally there would be an auxiliary contact on the motor that would enable you to drive power to the salt cell, either directly or with a relay and contactor, only when the motor was actually spinning. I don't know if that's a thing any motors have, I'm not super familiar with variable speed motors and controllers for pools.

If the pump is running and able to send a running signal (in whatever ways), the timer is on, the cell is with power not matter is inside or outside of the timer loop.