Planning for Equipment Pad Plumbing and Hookups

[tspenard]

Hi, I have a limited space to work with and have never plumbed a complete system before. I've read until I can't absorb any more info and still have questions.

Planned layout:
The above ground plumbing will all be changed to 2" rigid Sch 40 PVC. Existing underground 1.5" PVC goes out to the pool via seven total circuits (SUCTION SIDE = skimmer 1, skimmer 2, main drain | RETURN SIDE = steps1, steps2, diagonal returns, feature jet). I have already cut and bushed these seven pipes near the equipment pad and attached short lengths of 2" PVC pipe (vertically) in preparation of adding valves and plumbing mostly new equipment in. Thanks to replies to my heater question here I will soon be purchasing a MasterTemp 250, possibly Cu Ni if the price makes sense. I will be installing an added electrical conduit and box near the side of the MasterTemp that extends power for the control panel function. A natural gas riser already exists; it has 1.25" MPT at its end which will need to be bushed down. The chlorinator is an existing IC40. The filter will be a Pentair FNS 60 and Pentair 2" multiport valve.. The pump is an almost new Pentair Variable flow.

RE: equipment inlets/outlets:
Per the IC40 there is supposed to be 12" - 18" of straight inlet pipe length. I may not be able to provide this. Is this of utmost importance or can I get by with 8-10" if necessary? If I need to add close to 18" the best bet may be to plumb it vertically, then provide a fairly short 180* set of elbows and bring the outlet back down parallel to the inlet. That said, is there a benefit to operating the IC40 either flowing in the uphill or downhill direction?
RE: filter and heater, what are the minimum straight pipe recommendations out from their respective multiport valve / header fittings? Can I plum elbows really close in any/all of these applications? I can find no specs for any brand, let alone Pentair. At least the pump states 10" of straight pipe before the inlet (with 2" pipe).

RE: heater:
I plan to run short sections of CPVC pipe and elbow right off of the inlet and outlets to be on the safe side heat-wise. What would be a good total pipe + elbow length in CPVC be before returning to standard Sch 40? I was thinking about 2 feet or up until the first device such as a check valve or Jandy valve.

RE: gas line connections:
Just curious what your observations or understanding of gas pipe plumbing at the unit is. My understanding, basically, is that one should bush down to 3/4", install the gas regulator, then a ball valve, then elbow(s) as necessary to reach the heater's inlet height, then a tee with a 3" sediment stub, then a union, then straight pipe the rest of the way inside the heater to the gas valve. Is this OK, or any corrections?

RE: gas regulation:
My regulator failed (blew out the diaphragm) a while back. I don't know anything about it other than it's likely at least 23 years old. Where could I go to match up a new unit that would have the same specs? I only know the heater requires 4"<14" water column of regulated pressure. I don't know what the pipe run delivers from the house. It is 1" CPS PE but that's all I know. The old heater was at least 250K and it worked great on this setup.

Thank you for any help!

 

[Jimrahbe]

tsp,

As far as the IC40 goes, I have about 2" of straight pipe before my pool-builder-installed cell.. It works just fine... Just install it with as much straight pipe that will fit. If you do decide to go vertical, you can only install the cell with the water flowing up... Otherwise the flow switch could be closed by gravity and you do not want that to happen..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[setsailsoon]

ts,

On your gas line questions I'd start with a visit to your building permit department either online or in person. The requirements vary. May require a licensed gas plumber or that you file and do the work to the same requirements. This is actually a good thing. I had to go through the building permit process and get a pressure test witnessed. Not a big deal but took some time and $ for the permit. Building code will often dictate the type of pipe and "typical" hook up details. In my case it was regulator, 1/4 turn ball valve and pipe with debris trap before the heater connection. Corrugated stainless steel pipe is also allowed. I would not reduce below the heater inlet pipe size and minimize that length. Get the model number off the existing valve and search. Many of them are Maxitrol or American Gas. Make sure you bubble test everything.

Hope this helps.

Chris

 

[Arizonarob]

Tsp, could you snap a pic of your equipment pad and post it up here? It will help a lot if we can see what you’re working with.
@jimmythegreek

 

[jimmythegreek]

You would have been fine with all 1.5" in your application and just Bush it up to 2" manifolds with your valves and all your equipment pad plumbing. With home runs like you have it's fine especially if you limit elbows and especially street elbows and use long sweeps. If it's already done just use it.

Cpvc is overkill IMO. Thousands of heaters and pumps are plumbed with sch40 and so are mine with no issues. If you want it to look neat stub it to a fitting so you avoid couplings. It's good practice to have 5 diameters in front of a pump or flow equipment like swg. 2" pipe is 10" or more BUT I see them installed with elbows and street elbows right into or out of and they work fine just not great practice if you want max performance and flow

With regards to gas I need more info. Propane or natural? With a regulator you either have propane or a high pressure line w a equipment regulator to reduce pressure. I think I saw you say 1 1/4 riser so you shouldn't need it if nat gas. Either way I prefer to pipe in full diameter as close as possible and on last or close to end of run, an elbow using a reducing elbow into the gas valve. As you stated you need a union and depending on pipe layout a dirt/drip leg. Many heaters have either side input for gas with a bung covering the other opening. DIY is great but it's a good idea to use a manometer on any gas appliance and really dial in the burner for most efficiency. Gas ain't cheap anywhere anymore

Is this an above ground pool I thought I saw that you said that

 

[tspenard]

Tsp, could you snap a pic of your equipment pad and post it up here? It will help a lot if we can see what you’re working with.
@jimmythegreek

Here you go.

The letters designate where I want the Filter, Pump, and Heater located, generally speaking.

The red rectangle is the approximate area that will be poured concrete when I'm done with the conduit and forms. It is roughly 36" x 68". In the worst case of left/right space limitation I could place a component partly on old and new concrete but I want to avoid that.

The light blue box with 'E' is where I want to support a box for the 110V to come out near the heater. Buried 12/2/G coming up into it, 1/2" LiquidTite coming out of it.

I plan on having all of the equipment plumbing come towards the in-ground plumbing, rather than back behind and then around to the front like it was originally. It will compact the installation without limiting the left-right room I have to run straight sections when equipment requires it.

 

[tspenard]

You would have been fine with all 1.5" in your application and just Bush it up to 2" manifolds with your valves and all your equipment pad plumbing. With home runs like you have it's fine especially if you limit elbows and especially street elbows and use long sweeps. If it's already done just use it.

That's what I said I did.

Cpvc is overkill IMO. Thousands of heaters and pumps are plumbed with sch40 and so are mine with no issues. If you want it to look neat stub it to a fitting so you avoid couplings. It's good practice to have 5 diameters in front of a pump or flow equipment like swg. 2" pipe is 10" or more BUT I see them installed with elbows and street elbows right into or out of and they work fine just not great practice if you want max performance and flow.

If I can afford and want to install a couple feet of CPVC, what is the harm? Besides price is there a negative to using it? I was asking what length of pipe past the manifold would help "take the heat" if the heater got over 100*F outlet temp. PVC weakens disproportionately as heat rises. 140*F is its absolute max tolerance. In a bad situation the heater may have a intermittent fault where it doesn't failsafe to off over, say 120*F. I like to be safe especially when it is easy to do so.

With regards to gas I need more info. Propane or natural? With a regulator you either have propane or a high pressure line w a equipment regulator to reduce pressure. I think I saw you say 1 1/4 riser so you shouldn't need it if nat gas. Either way I prefer to pipe in full diameter as close as possible and on last or close to end of run, an elbow using a reducing elbow into the gas valve. As you stated you need a union and depending on pipe layout a dirt/drip leg. Many heaters have either side input for gas with a bung covering the other opening. DIY is great but it's a good idea to use a manometer on any gas appliance and really dial in the burner for most efficiency. Gas ain't cheap anywhere anymore

Natural gas per my paragraph "Planned layout". From what I'm seeing in the poorly documented installation manuals, it appears that manufacturers are generally locating one 3/4" FPT inlet close to one side of the heater case, and obstructions appear to make hooking to an opposite side fitting (as is common on gas valves) difficult or impractical. Regardless, selecting the MasterTemp allows two convenient orientations using the defacto inlet location. I will probably get a manometer and check supply pressure before looking into a regulator, thanks.

Is this an above ground pool I thought I saw that you said that

IG per my signature and mentioning underground piping.

 

[tspenard]

tsp,

As far as the IC40 goes, I have about 2" of straight pipe before my pool-builder-installed cell.. It works just fine... Just install it with as much straight pipe that will fit. If you do decide to go vertical, you can only install the cell with the water flowing up... Otherwise the flow switch could be closed by gravity and you do not want that to happen..

Thanks,

Jim R.

Thanks, Jim. I saw one illustrated example from Pentair on piping the IC(x)0 chlorinator vertically and it was flowing uphill. It just doesn't seem to be mentioned in the literature, or I missed it.

I am hoping to get about 8" if I plumb it horizontally. I need a check valve and a Tee in that circuit before the IC40 to create a heater bypass function, and they take up a lot of real estate. That plan will reduce elbows. Otherwise elbows and restrictions increase to go vertical for the 12" - 18" straight inlet suggestion.

 

[tspenard]

ts,

On your gas line questions I'd start with a visit to your building permit department either online or in person. The requirements vary. May require a licensed gas plumber or that you file and do the work to the same requirements. This is actually a good thing. I had to go through the building permit process and get a pressure test witnessed. Not a big deal but took some time and $ for the permit. Building code will often dictate the type of pipe and "typical" hook up details. In my case it was regulator, 1/4 turn ball valve and pipe with debris trap before the heater connection. Corrugated stainless steel pipe is also allowed. I would not reduce below the heater inlet pipe size and minimize that length. Get the model number off the existing valve and search. Many of them are Maxitrol or American Gas. Make sure you bubble test everything.

Hope this helps.

Chris

Thanks, Chris. I plan to get a manometer and see what the house supply is (static), then I'll have pipe dimension, static supply, and heater demand data handy to ask more intelligent questions about the required regulator.

 

[jimmythegreek]

im on a computer now, looks good so far. I would have made the pad longer to have more room between equipment, but your OK like that. Usually you want to stub up to the equipment placement, like work L to R or opposite, having suction on end and heater with returns in front of it. Regardless its gonna work fine Im guessing you did placement based on electrical coming up and gas line. If you take a pic of the gas meter and its close piping I can tell you if you have a high pressure line to heater. 99% chance you do, its rare to have a regulator at the equipment on standard 1/4psi service. PE stands for polyethylene and usually CTS but if you have CPS its probably a manufacturer for your particular gas provider. with a 1" line off the meter main you can go roughly 35ft on standard pressure so you have to figure how far from the main you are. if you are further you need a regulator as you have a high pressure feed

 

[tspenard]

im on a computer now, looks good so far. I would have made the pad longer to have more room between equipment, but your OK like that. Usually you want to stub up to the equipment placement, like work L to R or opposite, having suction on end and heater with returns in front of it. Regardless its gonna work fine Im guessing you did placement based on electrical coming up and gas line. If you take a pic of the gas meter and its close piping I can tell you if you have a high pressure line to heater. 99% chance you do, its rare to have a regulator at the equipment on standard 1/4psi service. PE stands for polyethylene and usually CTS but if you have CPS its probably a manufacturer for your particular gas provider. with a 1" line off the meter main you can go roughly 35ft on standard pressure so you have to figure how far from the main you are. if you are further you need a regulator as you have a high pressure feed

Thanks, I will post a pic of the meter and pool piping attached to it.

I have no choice with the underground layout of plumbing, it's 23 years old so I work with what I have. The original plumbing really wasn't too bad in terms of bends and inlet lengths considering the layout. I just want to make it better with less compromises (and upgrading to 2" piping above ground of course).

Apologies for the gas pipe typo, it is in fact 1" CTS, .099" wall PE. I know this because I had to dig around it in another area and took pics of the specs on the pipe. The riser at the pad does have a MPT fitting which measures about 1-5/8" major diameter, so that falls in line with 1-1/4" MPT specs. I have never worked on 1-1/4" pipe so I can't just eyeball it from experience. I do have a pipe die kit so I can clean up the corrosion and bush it down to 3/4" for the stub to the heater.

 

[tspenard]

im on a computer now, looks good so far. I would have made the pad longer to have more room between equipment, but your OK like that. Usually you want to stub up to the equipment placement, like work L to R or opposite, having suction on end and heater with returns in front of it. Regardless its gonna work fine Im guessing you did placement based on electrical coming up and gas line. If you take a pic of the gas meter and its close piping I can tell you if you have a high pressure line to heater. 99% chance you do, its rare to have a regulator at the equipment on standard 1/4psi service. PE stands for polyethylene and usually CTS but if you have CPS its probably a manufacturer for your particular gas provider. with a 1" line off the meter main you can go roughly 35ft on standard pressure so you have to figure how far from the main you are. if you are further you need a regulator as you have a high pressure feed

Here are some pics of my gas setup on the side of the house. As far as the pool circuit goes, the main (gray) regulator is the only thing affecting street pressure to the pool pad. There is a secondary (green) regulator that regulates the house feed but that is not part of the pool circuit.

This is the best shot of everything at once:



Here is the main regulator that is before the meter:



Here is the main meter:



Here is the riser from the meter going underground towards the pool:



It would appear from the label inside the meter glass that this is supposed to be a 2 psi system (before unit regulators). If that's true and it's accurately regulated I should have no problem with my plumbing run and a simple regulator at the heater riser.

 

[Arizonarob]

You might run into a problem with that dryer vent being right there during inspection. (If they do in your area)
I know back east, there is zero chance of passing with that the way it is.

 

[jimmythegreek]

Good catch arizonarob. I missed it and yeah that would fail big time here too. You do in fact have high pressure service to the pool. That's likely a 2psi main regulator and a 1/4 to 1/2 stepping it down into the house. The regulator at the pool riser is needed or you will bow out the gas valve on your new heater. How long is the run to pool from there? They make those adapter risers from plastic pipe in many sizes. Looks like inch and a quarter by pics its probably what they had on the truck or available at time of install its fine bigger works always too small is the issue which h you dont have.

 

[tspenard]

Thanks guys, I haven't 100% sorted out the gas regulator situation but I will get back to it when I return home. I now have a manometer and test bushings to verify proper regulation.

But before heading out of town today I finally finished the pool pad project. See pics below.



I made one bad joint that had to be fixed with a coupler, then I couldn't fully seat the couplers on the 4 valve return manifold before the glue locked up, so I had to buy new valves to get new tail pieces and redo the manifold. With the bad weather and other things cropping up it took a long time.

The minimum inlet distances for IC40 and Superflo have been met within a compact space. The worst restriction is a total of 180° from the IC40 to the return manifold which is a happy compromise in my book.

 

[Arizonarob]

Looks good, don’t forget to label up everything and flow direction, that way it can be figured out easily if you’re not there.

 

[tspenard]

Looks good, don’t forget to label up everything and flow direction, that way it can be figured out easily if you’re not there.

Thanks, Rob. I will look into labels, good idea.