pH rising and unstable

[Swampwoman]

Honestly, I would prefer any day to run a chlorine regular or swg pool than try to tinker with ph and copper rate of concentration. As you've learned, ph doesn't like to be chased

As it is, on well water, managing metal sequestrant is more than enough tinkering for me

In your shoes, I would abandon the enviro-swim and dose regular chlorine to TFP sec [fc/cya][/FC/cya] - Thats the most bullet-proof formula you're going to find, IMHO

And after a while as you change over your water and get your sulphate level down, eg via backwashing, etc., consider changing to swg if you'd like even less maintenance. But SWG plates can wear faster in high sulphate conditions, so without access to Muriatic Acid, I'm not sure its worth the extra convenience in your case.

 

[needsajet]

Just for clarity, sodium bicarbonate (aka bicarb, aka baking soda) does not increase pH very much. Pool water (and water generally) releases carbon dioxide as it tries to reach equilibrium with the atmosphere. The source of carbon dioxide is carbonic acid in the water, and so as this occurs, the pH of the water rises. A higher level of total alkalinity allows this to occur more quickly.

If it were my pool, and I could not buy hydrochloric acid, I'd refill the pool to get rid of the sulphates and copper. Then for a fresh start, use pool chlorinating liquid or bleach, for sanitation per the chart swampwoman linked. I would get the TA to 50 or 60, and then hopefully not too much dry acid is needed from that point forward. I would test my fill water for TA to see how high that is. If it's especially high, I'd also try to reduce evaporation (the long term TA increase in the pool comes from top-up water)

I was focused on TA and pH, and have now re-read your full thread. If you're using copper and silver, and no chlorine, your pool water would be algae free, but is likely not killing pathogens fast enough to reduce person-to-person disease transfer. This is probably not a big deal if it's just family, since you're sharing germs anyway, but if you have visitors, I'd definitely be using chlorine. Copper/silver systems are not allowed to be called sanitizers in Australia or the US for this reason.

If you decide to drain, the first step will be to sequester as much copper as possible before you drain. Draining also has certain risks, so if you go this route, let the people here help you get the most value from a drain/refill by walking you through it.

 

[Tiken]

Swampwoman,

I have a thought: would the use of Cyanuric acid help to stabilise pH. I know that CYA is usually used to stabilise chlorine, not pH. But I read in an article that CYA also has pH buffering qualities, and in fact is best amongst the options - sodium bicarb, and borax. Has anyone heard of this, or used this method? http://www.poolhelp.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/JSPSI_V3N2_pp34-41.pdf

Since CYA stays in the water, only diluted by rain or additional water, then if indeed it stabilises pH, this could be a way for me to hold pH without borax? I'll have to raise TA first, bring it down with dry acid, and then add CYA to try to hold it. Does anyone think this is a bad idea?

David

Tiken, it sounds to me like you are trying to actually run borates at 50 ppm to avoid ph fluctuations, as opposed to using borax to raise the ph.

Just to add to Needsajet's caution:

If you cannot use Muriatic Acid, I'm going to suggest you do NOT use borax but instead use boric acid, which can be obtained at Duda Diesel (DudaDiesel - Biodiesel, Chemical & Solar Supplies, Alternative Energy Store )

- you would have to use waaaay too much sodium bisulphate if using regular borax to push your ph back dwm. The ph swings will precipitate your copper, and exacerbate your situation. Your sulhates, likely already dramatically high, would be seriously worsened by this treatment.

If that wasn't your intent, please ignore my advice.

 

[Swampwoman]

Good morning, Tiken. I'm not specifically familiar with using cya as a ph buffer in and of itself, but its true that "pucks" that contain cya are in fact acidic, so your idea makes sense to me in theory.

However, if you were to try this, there would be a dearth of guidance, I'm afraid, and one caveat in terms of keeping the cya level low, eg well under 100 -- and that is that cya and copper have been known to form copper cyanurate (sp?) which causes purplish staining, particularly overwinter in cooler water, which might not be a problem in your case.

So, if you plan to continue using Enviro Swim and want to try buffering ph with cya, you should definitely reach out to the mfg for guidance or to learn of any unintended consequences.

Since TFP does not advocate the use of ionic systems like enviroswim given that we (and science) doesn't view them to be adequate sanitizers to protect human health, we wouldn't be an ideal source for information and support/guidance.

With that said, in a family pool, risk is a personal assessment and of course the decision is yours. I would just not be especially comfortable advising you in any direction that might render your system ineffective within its intended parameters -- that's up to Enviro Swim. You will want to ask them if adding cya interferes in any way with how their system is intended to work.

 

[Tiken]

Thanks Swamwoman.
I appreciate all the inputs on this board, and have learnt from each of you.
I realise I am using a different system. I have some reservations about the system I am using, but self maintenance is difficult here and I thought that the ES3 was less maintenance.
Regrettably, the manufacturer hasn't been a lot of help on the pH bounce. But I have more specific questions to put to them now. And some experiments to try out.

Thanks again all.

David

Good morning, Tiken. I'm not specifically familiar with using cya as a ph buffer in and of itself, but its true that "pucks" that contain cya are in fact acidic, so your idea makes sense to me in theory.

However, if you were to try this, there would be a dearth of guidance, I'm afraid, and one caveat in terms of keeping the cya level low, eg well under 100 -- and that is that cya and copper have been known to form copper cyanurate (sp?) which causes purplish staining, particularly overwinter in cooler water, which might not be a problem in your case.

So, if you plan to continue using Enviro Swim and want to try buffering ph with cya, you should definitely reach out to the mfg for guidance or to learn of any unintended consequences.

Since TFP does not advocate the use of ionic systems like enviroswim given that we (and science) doesn't view them to be adequate sanitizers to protect human health, we wouldn't be an ideal source for information and support/guidance.

With that said, in a family pool, risk is a personal assessment and of course the decision is yours. I would just not be especially comfortable advising you in any direction that might render your system ineffective within its intended parameters -- that's up to Enviro Swim. You will want to ask them if adding cya interferes in any way with how their system is intended to work.

 

[alexsmith1]

Hi @Tiken, did you manage to sort out the high pH rise? I'm interested in knowing the diagnosis. Thanks

 

[Tiken]

Hi @Tiken, did you manage to sort out the high pH rise? I'm interested in knowing the diagnosis. Thanks

Alex, I've given up on the ES3 system and reverted to simple chlorine and acid treatments. Because I cannot use liquid acids, I use sodium bisulphate. It is not very satisfactory, because I have to dose twice a week to maintain chlorine in range (between 1 to 6 ppm). I keep pH levels roughly in the range 7.2-7.6. I find I am using less acid now with this approach, but because I don't use cyanuric acid for now, I need to top up chlorine regularly - it breaks down fast in the sunlight, and also heavy rain dilutes. When the rainy season is over, I may try to put in some cyanuric acid. I did try this some months back, but it didn't seem to slow down the chlorine breakdown by much. So I'm not sure it's worth the trouble. I've also given up trying to keep my TA up at 60 to 80. It falls over time with the use of acids. So far, the pool seems OK - clean, and sanitized. And no tiles are falling off the sides!