PB Plumbing Debate New Construction

[mkmscr]

First, I have missed this forum and I am happy to say my new pool is almost complete so I will be living here again.

Sadly I just realized an issue with my pool. The PB sold me on 2" plumbing for all 3 returns...GREAT! In actuality he installed a 2" line then used a 2" to 1 1/2" Tee and ran out to the returns with 1 1/2".

So it goes like this, the Tee is receiving a 2" pipe on the input side, then one 1 1/2" pipe goes to one return then the other side of the Tee goes out 1 1/2" to feed the remaining two returns. Two returns are off one side of the tee and another return hangs off the other side. Basically putting two returns on one 1 1/2" pipe. Now, my paver deck is just about complete so I am not very excited about having him rip it up (which he will if I ask). He already owned it and is waiting for me to tell him what to do. What I really need to know is, does it really matter? Yes my pride is hurt but in the end am I really splitting hairs? I know we all love bigger and better things but is there scientific way to compare these differences? I am sure there is calculations one can do but I just don't know how. Also, a trusted friend of mine suggested because I am using VS pumps and they will mostly operate at much lower speeds so this really isn't a concern. He said if I were running a single stage pump then it would be a different story. Seems logical to me.

I have two 2.7HP VS pumps, one pump is for the three returns and a 36" sheer decent and the other is strictly for the 12' negative edge. The sheer descent has its own pipe coming from the pump. At the pump, a 2" pipe is tee'd....one 2" goes toward the 3 returns and the other 2" goes to the sheer descent.

Yes I am super PO'd about their shenanigans but is it worthwhile tearing it all up to fix? Yes, as man I am super angry but this pool has taken several months and we are exhausted and the end is SOOOOOO close.

Diagram attached how he ran the pipes. Black line is 2" pipe, red is 1 1/2" pipes.

Pool is Gunite IG, 16k gallons, SWG, 36" sheer descent, 12" negative edge and 2 - 2.7HP VS pumps

Thoughts?

 

[Jimrahbe]

M,

Well from my point of view you are just worrying about nothing... You bought VS pumps so that you could run them slowly and save money on the electrical bill. I run my pump at 1200 RPM and the filter pressure is about 2 lbs.. Having 1.5" plumbing is just not going to limit the amount of water returning to the pool.

Let's see what some of our experts have to say, but I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[mkmscr]

M,

Well from my point of view you are just worrying about nothing... You bought VS pumps so that you could run them slowly and save money on the electrical bill. I run my pump at 1200 RPM and the filter pressure is about 2 lbs.. Having 1.5" plumbing is just not going to limit the amount of water returning to the pool.

Let's see what some of our experts have to say, but I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill...

Thanks,

Jim R.

I hope that is the case and others agree. Honestly I am an extremist, doomsday scenario kind of guy lol. Also, I am HIGHLY annoyed they tried to pull a fast one. Thank you for the input.

 

[Arizonarob]

I agree with Jim, but let’s get a couple of pump gurus to chime in. @mas985 @JamesW

 

[mas985]

Most pool designs will step down to 1 1/2" pipe before going out the returns so that is not unusual. You aren't showing any dimensions so it isn't clear how long the 1 1/2" runs are going to be but assuming they are close to the pool, then it really shouldn't be an issue. Plus the flow rate is split between the pipes so there really isn't going to be an issue with velocity.

The biggest issue will be the uneven flow to each of the ports. This probably won't be a large difference and could be compensated some by the choice of eyeball size for each of the ports. If you can give me the run lengths, I can estimate the flow rate differences. For more accuracy, I would need the full plumbing design including suction side and pipe plus all of the equipment models.

 

[JamesW]

I don't expect that you would ever want to run enough gpm to make a big difference.

What's the expected flow rate?

In general, I would be more concerned about the suction plumbing.

The infinity edge plumbing is also more critical, because you want big plumbing, especially on the suction, since it is low head application.

 

[mkmscr]

I don't expect that you would ever want to run enough gpm to make a big difference.

What's the expected flow rate?

In general, I would be more concerned about the suction plumbing.

The infinity edge plumbing is also more critical, because you want big plumbing, especially on the suction, since it is low head application.

Infinity edge suction line is 3", no idea what the flow rate is or should be.

I did find this in the pump manual.

 

[markayash]

You are like me, I was an old school engine builder and bigger and smoother are better. I even used the thinner ( non sch 40 ) PVC because the elbows are smoother, looking back wasn't needed. But I didn't have a VS speed pump and the pressure was at 13psi with everything open and new filters
But now I am like Jim, I run my VS speed around 2300 and 4pds of pressure, would go lower but need to drive the polaris. Once It dies ad I get a robot will turn it down more..But they don't use a lot of power compared to the old pumps.

 

[mkmscr]

Most pool designs will step down to 1 1/2" pipe before going out the returns so that is not unusual. You aren't showing any dimensions so it isn't clear how long the 1 1/2" runs are going to be but assuming they are close to the pool, then it really shouldn't be an issue. Plus the flow rate is split between the pipes so there really isn't going to be an issue with velocity.

The biggest issue will be the uneven flow to each of the ports. This probably won't be a large difference and could be compensated some by the choice of eyeball size for each of the ports. If you can give me the run lengths, I can estimate the flow rate differences. For more accuracy, I would need the full plumbing design including suction side and pipe plus all of the equipment models.

Great

Most pool designs will step down to 1 1/2" pipe before going out the returns so that is not unusual. You aren't showing any dimensions so it isn't clear how long the 1 1/2" runs are going to be but assuming they are close to the pool, then it really shouldn't be an issue. Plus the flow rate is split between the pipes so there really isn't going to be an issue with velocity.

The biggest issue will be the uneven flow to each of the ports. This probably won't be a large difference and could be compensated some by the choice of eyeball size for each of the ports. If you can give me the run lengths, I can estimate the flow rate differences. For more accuracy, I would need the full plumbing design including suction side and pipe plus all of the equipment models.

Thank mas985, attached is a drawing I updated with some dimensions. Sorry it is not professional grade...

Also here is link to the Jandy 2.7HP VS pump https://www.jandy.com/-/media/zodiac/global/downloads/h/h0420400_revh.pdf

 

[mas985]

So assuming you have all 1" eyeballs, the flow distribution, as a percentage of total flow rate, is as follows from top port to bottom:

1) 27%
2) 30%
3) 44%

If you change port #3 (bottom) to 3/4" eyeball, the flow distribution becomes the following:

1) 32%
2) 35%
3) 33%

Which is a little more even.

However, I have never been much of an advocate for forcing even flow between returns. The placement of the returns and the shape of the pool will have just as big an impact, if not more, to circulation as the flow out of the returns. All of these factors come into play and will determine optimum flow for each of the returns. So to keep things simple, don't sweat it.

After the pool is built, you can run a dye test so really see if you need to make any adjustments (eyeballs):

Circulation Dye Test

I have been wanting to do this test for some time but haven't gotten around to it until now. I ran three tests: 1) Dye in front of return at high speed 2) Dye in from of return at low speed 3) Dye in skimmer coming out of 4 returns at high speed The only issue was that the dye faded pretty...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[mkmscr]

So assuming you have all 1" eyeballs, the flow distribution, as a percentage of total flow rate, is as follows from top port to bottom:

1) 27%
2) 30%
3) 44%

If you change port #3 (bottom) to 3/4" eyeball, the flow distribution becomes the following:

1) 32%
2) 35%
3) 33%

Which is a little more even.

However, I have never been much of an advocate for forcing even flow between returns. The placement of the returns and the shape of the pool will have just as big an impact, if not more, to circulation as the flow out of the returns. All of these factors come into play and will determine optimum flow for each of the returns. So to keep things simple, don't sweat it.

After the pool is built, you can run a dye test so really see if you need to make any adjustments (eyeballs):

Circulation Dye Test

I have been wanting to do this test for some time but haven't gotten around to it until now. I ran three tests: 1) Dye in front of return at high speed 2) Dye in from of return at low speed 3) Dye in skimmer coming out of 4 returns at high speed The only issue was that the dye faded pretty...

www.troublefreepool.com

Thank you mas985