Owner/Builder pool in Phoenix (Phase: Start-up!)

[bertschb]

Hmmm... that's interesting. Do you have that permanently connected to your auto-fill? How often do you have to regen it or do any kind of maintenance?

No. I set it up so I can disconnect the water softener and cap it if I decide to stop using it. At that point the autofill would work as the pool builder designed it and non-softened water would go to the pool.

I added a water flow meter to the line that feeds the water softener so I can measure how much water is going through the softener. I'm not sure yet how long I'll be able to go between regens as I'm not sure how much water will be added to the pool (I'm a new pool owner). I did regens about every 5 weeks or so when using the water softener for our RV while living in it full time. I'll measure the water hardness over the next few weeks and when it needs a regen, I'll document how many gallons of water went through the softener. After that I'll just do the regens based on gallons used rather than measuring CH all the time.

Just to clarify something in the photo below - The black cap for the tee on the left side of the photo is just sitting on that electrical box. I wanted it nearby in case I decide to stop using the water softener. Figured I'd lose it if it wasn't nearby.

It's definitely not pretty but it works:

 

[Winter247]

No. I set it up so I can disconnect the water softener and cap it if I decide to stop using it. At that point the autofill would work as the pool builder designed it and non-softened water would go to the pool.

I added a water flow meter to the line that feeds the water softener so I can measure how much water is going through the softener. I'm not sure yet how long I'll be able to go between regens as I'm not sure how much water will be added to the pool (I'm a new pool owner). I did regens about every 5 weeks or so when using the water softener for our RV while living in it full time. I'll measure the water hardness over the next few weeks and when it needs a regen, I'll document how many gallons of water went through the softener. After that I'll just do the regens based on gallons used rather than measuring CH all the time.

Just to clarify something in the photo below - The black cap for the tee on the left side of the photo is just sitting on that electrical box. I wanted it nearby in case I decide to stop using the water softener. Figured I'd lose it if it wasn't nearby.

It's definitely not pretty but it works:
View attachment 400797

Wow, thanks for the detailed image/diagram! This is super interesting to me. I'm definitely going to look into it further. I had a plumbing company out today and got a quote for them to add a whole house softener system ($4k). It would be an interesting install, that's for sure... but do-able I suppose. Although now I'm reading that soft water is bad for plants and trees. Which poses a problem because even if we did a long plumbing run to add a non-softened spigot in the rear of the house (near the irrigation valves), half our trees are watered from a spigot on the other side of the house which would be soft water. There doesn't appear to be a perfect solution. Maybe a setup like yours is the way to go? Hmmm...

Also, I've read several articles now saying that soft water isn't actually good for pools. That it damages metal and plaster over time? IDK, but there is a lot of conflicting information out there. Certainly don't want to add a $4k softener system just to trade one problem for another. lol

I'm thinking maybe I should test my water now for hardness before making any decisions. I know it's hard, but maybe I need a clearer determination of what's the bigger pain in the rear.... dealing with hard water or the difficult water softener install and not killing our trees?

Thanks again @bertschb !

 

[Nikilyn]

Soft water is salt water. It's the same thing that's used in a salt pool. But no, you don't want salt/soft water used for plants. You would need to have it plumbed to a place after your landscaping pipes.

 

[bertschb]

Soft water is salt water. It's the same thing that's used in a salt pool.

I'm not sure what type of water softener you're using that produces salt water but I just tested the water coming from my water softener as well as the non-softened water at my kitchen faucet using the Taylor K-1766 salt test kit. Here are the results:

Water from water softener = 200ppm (max)
Water from kitchen faucet = 200ppm (max)
Water in my salt water pool = 3,800ppm

Conclusion? Soft water coming out of my water softener is not salt water.

 

[Nikilyn]

I'm not sure what type of water softener you're using that produces salt water but I just tested the water coming from my water softener as well as the non-softened water at my kitchen faucet using the Taylor K-1766 salt test kit. Here are the results:

Water from water softener = 200ppm (max)
Water from kitchen faucet = 200ppm (max)
Water in my salt water pool = 3,800ppm

Conclusion? Soft water coming out of my water softener is not salt water.

However you want to say it. We put salt in our water softener to make it work. We put salt in our pool for it to make chlorine. Same thing.

 

[bertschb]

We put salt in our water softener to make it work.

Correct. Salt is added but only during the regen cycle. The salt gets flushed out of the water softener after the regen cycle is complete. There is no salt in a water softener while it's operating and producing softened water.

 

[thewolf56]

Also, I've read several articles now saying that soft water isn't actually good for pools. That it damages metal and plaster over time? IDK, but there is a lot of conflicting information out there. Certainly don't want to add a $4k softener system just to trade one problem for another. lol

Just a note, but when we will fill our pool, we will not be filling it with soft water. Depending on the actual CH level of my water, I may use some soft water to supplement and keep the CH in check. I've read similar articles regarding the plaster, but that seems to be an issue if the CH level in the water is overall too low. If you don't start with water too low of a level in CH, adding soft water will not lower the CH.

The issue appears to be that the calcium in the pool stays in the pool, while the surface water evaporates. If you add more water volume to replace the lost amount, then you are adding more water and calcium if you use hard water. If you use soft water for the refill, the CH level will not rise as quickly.

As far as plants and trees go, it is possible to install another hose bib pre-soft water as well. My system has a hose bib out front that is still hard water, along with my irrigation system. I will also probably run another hose bib to the back corner of my back yard as well with city water when I run plumbing for the irrigation (as my 2 hose bibs on the back of the house are now soft water). Good plumbers can add hose bib anywhere you want (just takes money).

For testing the hardness, I recommend nothing short of the Hach 5b test kit (can be found on Amazon). It is much more accurate than the test strips that are sold in stores and is what pros use when you need to know the exact hardness of the water. You may not have as hard of water as you think (my house in Phoenix was only a little more than half of the hardness of my house in Goodyear, and the amount of time it took for hard water stains to appear between the two was obvious),

It's definitely a tough decision, but it will be easier with more information. I definitely suggest testing the hardness yourself and then talking to a reputable installer in your area for a reasonably-sized system for your needs. Just a bit of warning, though, those soft water systems can easily exceed $4k when the salesman tries to upsell all of the different filters, resin, etc. If you want a good resource for selecting the size water softener you would actually need after testing your hardness, send me a message and I can provide that to you. The members of that forum were helpful in not just selecting a system, but later trouble-shooting an issue I had a couple of years later.

 

[Winter247]

So I've had 2 companies out now for the water softener estimate. The 2nd company seemed to better understand what I was looking for. Here's my plan at the moment:

1. Install 48k grain softener outside (because I don't have an internal loop, so they have to tie in where the main enters the house)
2. Run a bypass (hard water) to my rear irrigation with a new spigot and another bypass to my west irrigation with a new spigot,
3. Leave the existing spigots in place as well... which will now be soft water. I'll likely just color code the valves.
4. Have a soft water and a hard water stub put in near the pool equipment pad. So I can connect either/both (with a valve) to the autofill

This way I have soft water for:
1. House
2. Misters
3. Car washing etc
4. Pool autofill option

and hard water for:
1. All irrigation
2. Pool autofill option

Plus spigots available on 2 sides of the house for either.

As it stands I think I can get this done for about $3200. All that being said, I have ordered 2 hardwater test kits (including the Hach 5b) and will test my water when they arrive.

 

[kimkats]

When this happens make sure to label and take pics so you will not mix up the two.

 

[bertschb]

Sounds like a great plan. My hacked RV water softener auto fill looks even more pathetic now....

 

[Bam Bam]

will ultimately be used for entertaining our 2 littles ones. (Currently 1 and 5 years old).

The layout looks beautiful. I didn’t notice a barrier between the house, the yard area and the pool. With a toddler (under 5 years) running around and a child it can be real easy to lose sight and control of one or both of them. The 5 year old who will be older by the time the pool is finished will more readily understand the dangers of the pool but it won’t compute with the toddler. There are many aesthetic and functional barriers. I strongly suggest considering one that is equipped with self=closing self-latching gate hardware with the gate opening away from the pool.

 

[Winter247]

Sounds like a great plan. My hacked RV water softener auto fill looks even more pathetic now....

Ha! No way, you're set up is genius. I was going to copy it if I couldn't get the plumbing routed the way I wanted. Your setup got me thinking in the right direction, so I appreciate all your input!

 

[Winter247]

The layout looks beautiful. I didn’t notice a barrier between the house, the yard area and the pool. With a toddler (under 5 years) running around and a child it can be real easy to lose sight and control of one or both of them. The 5 year old who will be older by the time the pool is finished will more readily understand the dangers of the pool but it won’t compute with the toddler. There are many aesthetic and functional barriers. I strongly suggest considering one that is equipped with self=closing self-latching gate hardware with the gate opening away from the pool.

Oh for sure! There will be a pool fence. In Phoenix you can't even pass inspection without a pool fence installed if theres any children in the house. It's just not in the design so it doesn't interfere with the sight lines.

 

[thewolf56]

So I've had 2 companies out now for the water softener estimate. The 2nd company seemed to better understand what I was looking for. Here's my plan at the moment:

1. Install 48k grain softener outside (because I don't have an internal loop, so they have to tie in where the main enters the house)
2. Run a bypass (hard water) to my rear irrigation with a new spigot and another bypass to my west irrigation with a new spigot,
3. Leave the existing spigots in place as well... which will now be soft water. I'll likely just color code the valves.
4. Have a soft water and a hard water stub put in near the pool equipment pad. So I can connect either/both (with a valve) to the autofill

This way I have soft water for:
1. House
2. Misters
3. Car washing etc
4. Pool autofill option

and hard water for:
1. All irrigation
2. Pool autofill option

Plus spigots available on 2 sides of the house for either.

As it stands I think I can get this done for about $3200. All that being said, I have ordered 2 hardwater test kits (including the Hach 5b) and will test my water when they arrive.

The car washing hose bib is nice. I added one inside one of my garages when I installed my soft water just for that reason. I got that idea from my neighbor across the street. Good thought on the misters also.

That doesn't sound like a bad price for all of that plumbing being changed. Just double-check your calculations for size needed after you test the water hardness. The pool auto-fill will use up a lot of the capacity, and you don't want the water softener cycling every other day.

 

[Nikilyn]

Our water here in Gilbert is super hard. We finished our pool last Feb. By fall the CH numbers were approaching the highest acceptable. We had to drain it to have some plaster smoothed out so we started over. I really don't want to drain it every year. I'm wondering how expensive it would be to add since we already have a whole house softener. Hopefully cheaper because $3000 is not in the budget.

 

[kimkats]

@Nikilyn get at least 3 bids to see how much it will cost in your area. Hopefully it will be cheaper.

 

[Winter247]

I'm still waiting on the Hach 5b test, but 2 different strip tests are showing our Total Hardness between 350-450 ppm... so considerably hard. I've scheduled the softener install for Tues 4/26. @Nikilyn at my previous house I had some random plumbing runs done and I think I paid $300 per run. If you already have a softener for your house a one-off run to your autofill shouldn't be that expensive. I agree with @kimkats though, always get a few bids.

Okay so I have a pump question. Currently I planning on the Hayward Tristar 950 VSP. We're doing a raised spa and a 4 ft LED sheer descent. I've been told I need an additional pump if I want to be able to run the spa and sheer at the same time. Honestly I don't know if that's important to me or not. However, I'm curious what some opinions out there are.

Should I...
1. Do the one pump, but run plumbing in a way that I could ADD another pump later if need be. (Is this even possible?)
2. Just do the one pump because I'll hardly ever need spa bubbles and sheer at the same time?
3. Get a 2nd pump, but something smaller (less expensive) since it's just for the sheer?
4. Get two 950 Tristar VSP pumps and I guess that means I have a backup if something happens to one of them? (This feels like overkill though)

Appreciate any opinions! Thanks!

 

[thewolf56]

I'm still waiting on the Hach 5b test, but 2 different strip tests are showing our Total Hardness between 350-450 ppm... so considerably hard. I've scheduled the softener install for Tues 4/26. @Nikilyn at my previous house I had some random plumbing runs done and I think I paid $300 per run. If you already have a softener for your house a one-off run to your autofill shouldn't be that expensive. I agree with @kimkats though, always get a few bids.

Okay so I have a pump question. Currently I planning on the Hayward Tristar 950 VSP. We're doing a raised spa and a 4 ft LED sheer descent. I've been told I need an additional pump if I want to be able to run the spa and sheer at the same time. Honestly I don't know if that's important to me or not. However, I'm curious what some opinions out there are.

Should I...
1. Do the one pump, but run plumbing in a way that I could ADD another pump later if need be. (Is this even possible?)
2. Just do the one pump because I'll hardly ever need spa bubbles and sheer at the same time?
3. Get a 2nd pump, but something smaller (less expensive) since it's just for the sheer?
4. Get two 950 Tristar VSP pumps and I guess that means I have a backup if something happens to one of them? (This feels like overkill though)

Appreciate any opinions! Thanks!

That's definitely hard water, but for comparison here, the conversion table shows my water to be in the 500-550ppm range (as I used the Hach 5b which measures in grains).

The $300 per run sounds really reasonable.

On the pump question, I know when I first started researching years ago, you could get pumps specially designed for water features only, but I don't know if the new energy regulations changed that. May be a cheaper/easier option than another VS pump if available. I personally would want the option, especially if you are using LED sheers, to be able to use and see them at night while in the spa.

 

[Winter247]

Extended our pavers out for an outdoor kitchen/grill area with a walkway leading to where the pool gate will open. Figured I can start building the BBQ island while the pool construction is going on. Just something to keep me busy while the process drags on. Also put in a small pad for the water softener, which will be installed next Monday now.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Broadhead H2O Water Conditioner? It's on a list of "other things to consider" from my pool consultant. From what I can tell it's just a slightly larger version of the "magnetic field displacing calcium particles to decrease hard water" devices I've seen (and tried) before. Seems gimmicky to me, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyone have any actual experience with it?

 

[Winter247]

That's definitely hard water, but for comparison here, the conversion table shows my water to be in the 500-550ppm range (as I used the Hach 5b which measures in grains).

The $300 per run sounds really reasonable.

On the pump question, I know when I first started researching years ago, you could get pumps specially designed for water features only, but I don't know if the new energy regulations changed that. May be a cheaper/easier option than another VS pump if available. I personally would want the option, especially if you are using LED sheers, to be able to use and see them at night while in the spa.

Yeah, I'm super curious what the levels come out to when I do the Hach 5b test.

As far as pumps for a 4 ft sheer, it seems the cost savings isn't that significant. Might as well spend a couple hundred extra dollars more and have 2 Hayward 950 VS pumps. I suppose it also gives me a backup if there's any issues with the main pump (since the sheer pump will have far less running hours). Plus being a larger VSP, it'll give me the option to control how far out the sheer descent will project.