Owner Build - Queen Creek Arizona

[mikmac2477]

Hey everyone, I recently moved to Arizona from Washington state where pools are rare. When moving to Arizona it’s a given that you need a pool. We ended up finding the perfect house and amount of land in a great area, but it just didn’t have a pool. The backyard is a blank canvas. I immediately reached out to all the local pool companies and the lowest prices we were getting were 90-100k. My budget was about 75k which I thought was a lot until I got all these quotes back. I was a bit defeated. I didn’t want to sacrifice the pool we want because it was out of our budget. So I am hoping to do an owners build. I’ve been reading so much and trying to soak in as much knowledge as I can. I don’t really know where to start. I’ve tried to reach out to locals on social media that have done this in the area but I’ve had no luck. Process wise: I know I have to get a permit to start, but I don’t know who I reach out to figure out the engineering, and plumbing plans. I plan to ask ALOT of questions. Any help is much appreciated!

 

[kimkats]

Do I ever have THE person for you!!! Chris! OH CHRIS!!! @setsailsoon

 

[setsailsoon]

Welcome to TFP Mike! You've come to the best place there is for anything pool. I feel your pain and passion to get the pool you want at a reasonable price. Prices have gone through the roof post-Covid and during Covid supply chain plus labor availability limited the number of pools builders could build. To stay in business builders had to raise margins. Fortunately for them demand also increased so prices moved up. All this resulted in substantial savings for OB'ers. But also all the work to source materials and labor got harder. I just completed a high end pool that I've dreamed about for years. My wife wanted a house on a lake and I wanted one on a golf course. After a LOT of searching we found this:


Not much to look at unless you see that water behind the back on the right. Plus it's a little over .5 ac so plenty room for our house with circular drive (wife happy) and a large pool over the back, facing west. Then you also can't see behind to the left is the green of the12th hole and that path behind it leads to the 13th hole tee! Perfect! A lot on a lake between two holes on a golf course. As I said "Perfect" my wife said "no way". But that was because I visualized this and she didn't:



My point with this little story is you can get overwhelmed with all the details that make it hard/impossible to get started. So here's how to get started:

Start by visualizing at a high level what you want it to look like in your yard.
Don't get too mired up in details just yet. Think about things like:

• Shape
• What do I want to do in this pool? Kid's play, laps, fun with friends, heat relief
• Look for pool designers in your area. They're not super easy to find for OB's but they are out there.
• I ended up with DIY.com but not 'till I met with two other local companies
• It's going to cost $500 - $3000 for a complete design that starts with concept then preliminary design and then a final detailed design that you need for the permit process
• Google is your friend to find design companies. 99% of your searches will find pool builders not pool designers. But there are a few. I know because PB uses them and none of them do all their design work in house. Try searching for "pool structural engineer". Many of these will be able to do the structural work but not be able to do the concept to rough design scope. Ask them who can do that for you in your area.
• Once you get a few concepts from different designers you will not only find concepts you like and dislike but you'll also get hints about how well you can work together. I found that price was about the same for all of them. The deciding issue is more about which one is best for you to work with.
• Once you select a designer you can start to bring pricing into the equation and look at cost options. Your designer should be able to provide high level cost factors to help you design the best pool you can afford. Keep in mind you have less than 3% of the design complete so the best cost estimate your going to get is +50%. In a perfect world this means you have a 50% probability of being over or under. In real world it always costs more and closer to the upper limit than the lower limit.
• Next steps are to do more work with your designer to develop preliminary design documents. At this stage your cost estimate gets a little tighter. Typically about +30%. Also remember, the actual result is more often at the top of this range.
• Once you get to this point for a pool like you're getting prices for you'll probably have spent at least $1000 and a LOT of time.
• Next step is to commit to a final design and at this point you'll have $1700-$2000 invested.
• The only way to get firm prices from here is to do the major component bidding. I have a list of them in my pool thread that you can look at to get pricing for. I'll see if I can find it and send to you. It includes everything from excavation to plumbing and electrical.
• Equipment is the easiest to price. Rough installed price is 2.5 X equipment price
• Once you get all the pricing add it up and add 20%. That's what your pool will cost. If it's too much recycle the process to get it within budget.
• Now you're ready to make the final investment decision.

We can talk about execution next but I think it's good to stop here and answer any questions you may have.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris
PS Here's what we ended up with (almost done):

 

[mikmac2477]

Hey Chris, thank you so much. I am so glad this post found you. You seem like someone who will help me so much!

Your property is amazing! It’s an oasis!

I did have a question in this step. I have “rough” designs that local pool companies gave us. Some gave dimensions of everything.

Ex: two different pools from two different companies.

I was curious, in this process what all am I going to be obtaining?

Would this suffice not just in the permitting process but also for electrical and plumbing subs as well?

My head is spinning trying to wrap my head around how much detail is needed in this process. Like do I need to measure everything in my backyard? Do I need to find engineers that will sketch the plumbing and electrical so when I contact the subs, they will just follow the plan?

 

[mikmac2477]

Welcome to TFP Mike! You've come to the best place there is for anything pool. I feel your pain and passion to get the pool you want at a reasonable price. Prices have gone through the roof post-Covid and during Covid supply chain plus labor availability limited the number of pools builders could build. To stay in business builders had to raise margins. Fortunately for them demand also increased so prices moved up. All this resulted in substantial savings for OB'ers. But also all the work to source materials and labor got harder. I just completed a high end pool that I've dreamed about for years. My wife wanted a house on a lake and I wanted one on a golf course. After a LOT of searching we found this:
View attachment 604041

Not much to look at unless you see that water behind the back on the right. Plus it's a little over .5 ac so plenty room for our house with circular drive (wife happy) and a large pool over the back, facing west. Then you also can't see behind to the left is the green of the12th hole and that path behind it leads to the 13th hole tee! Perfect! A lot on a lake between two holes on a golf course. As I said "Perfect" my wife said "no way". But that was because I visualized this and she didn't:
View attachment 604044
View attachment 604045

My point with this little story is you can get overwhelmed with all the details that make it hard/impossible to get started. So here's how to get started:

Start by visualizing at a high level what you want it to look like in your yard.
Don't get too mired up in details just yet. Think about things like:

• Shape
• What do I want to do in this pool? Kid's play, laps, fun with friends, heat relief
• Look for pool designers in your area. They're not super easy to find for OB's but they are out there.
• I ended up with DIY.com but not 'till I met with two other local companies
• It's going to cost $500 - $3000 for a complete design that starts with concept then preliminary design and then a final detailed design that you need for the permit process
• Google is your friend to find design companies. 99% of your searches will find pool builders not pool designers. But there are a few. I know because PB uses them and none of them do all their design work in house. Try searching for "pool structural engineer". Many of these will be able to do the structural work but not be able to do the concept to rough design scope. Ask them who can do that for you in your area.
• Once you get a few concepts from different designers you will not only find concepts you like and dislike but you'll also get hints about how well you can work together. I found that price was about the same for all of them. The deciding issue is more about which one is best for you to work with.
• Once you select a designer you can start to bring pricing into the equation and look at cost options. Your designer should be able to provide high level cost factors to help you design the best pool you can afford. Keep in mind you have less than 3% of the design complete so the best cost estimate your going to get is +50%. In a perfect world this means you have a 50% probability of being over or under. In real world it always costs more and closer to the upper limit than the lower limit.
• Next steps are to do more work with your designer to develop preliminary design documents. At this stage your cost estimate gets a little tighter. Typically about +30%. Also remember, the actual result is more often at the top of this range.
• Once you get to this point for a pool like you're getting prices for you'll probably have spent at least $1000 and a LOT of time.
• Next step is to commit to a final design and at this point you'll have $1700-$2000 invested.
• The only way to get firm prices from here is to do the major component bidding. I have a list of them in my pool thread that you can look at to get pricing for. I'll see if I can find it and send to you. It includes everything from excavation to plumbing and electrical.
• Equipment is the easiest to price. Rough installed price is 2.5 X equipment price
• Once you get all the pricing add it up and add 20%. That's what your pool will cost. If it's too much recycle the process to get it within budget.
• Now you're ready to make the final investment decision.

We can talk about execution next but I think it's good to stop here and answer any questions you may have.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris
PS Here's what we ended up with (almost done):
View attachment 604054
View attachment 604059

Hey Chris, not sure if it pings you automatically but I replied below!

 

[Newdude]

Hey Chris, not sure if it pings you automatically but I replied below!

It does. He hasn't visited since yesterday morning but pops regularly so he'll be back.

With Chris at the lead, I have nothing for you but a friendly Welcome.

 

[setsailsoon]

Hey Chris, thank you so much. I am so glad this post found you. You seem like someone who will help me so much!

Your property is amazing! It’s an oasis!

I did have a question in this step. I have “rough” designs that local pool companies gave us. Some gave dimensions of everything.

Ex: two different pools from two different companies.

I was curious, in this process what all am I going to be obtaining?

Would this suffice not just in the permitting process but also for electrical and plumbing subs as well?

My head is spinning trying to wrap my head around how much detail is needed in this process. Like do I need to measure everything in my backyard? Do I need to find engineers that will sketch the plumbing and electrical so when I contact the subs, they will just follow the plan?

Mike,

Sorry for the delay, consulting clients full of emergencies this week. Interesting questions, I'll do my best to answer.

In this process you're going from conceptual "I want a pool" through the many concepts that will work for your back yard to select a concept that you like based on your criteria. That's usually a list like:

• What fits
• What are my personal preferences
• What rules do I have to comply with (local requirements for construction, set backs, HOA rules)
• What can I afford
• What will make wife and family happy

Once you select a concept from sketches like the ones you attached you'll need to start real design work. There's a certain amount of detail that you need to ensure the pool will work and to construct it. Most of the time some of this must be submitted to your local building department and sometimes there are additional documents. For example, you'll definitely need hydraulic calcs to size plumbing, equipment etc. And your building department will want to look at these. But they'll also want to see how you are going to comply with their requirement to implement child barriers. There are several ways to do this but they're not required to build the pool.

So at the end of the day the level of detail is driven mostly by what's needed for construction and to satisfy the permitting process in your local area. You can't build the pool using subs with the detail level in examples you show. But you can select style, location and what's affordable. To build it using subs you need at least:

• Site drawing/survey showing location, dimensions, drainage plan(elevations) and proving you're within the setbacks.
• Underground piping and electrical
• Structural layout that shows where the rebar goes, how thick the concrete is, where the penetrations are for plumbing, drains, returns, lights and other fixtures
• Hydraulic calculations, operating points
• Electrical design details like load list, location of sub panel, bond system design, sufficient calcs to show you comply with code
• Construction details to show things that are required to build like how you overlap rebar, position and install fittings (like skimmers, drains, light fittings, returns, spa jets etc), pipe and electrical. There are a LOT of section drawings that show constructors how to do everything from corners to light fixtures.
• Some details are left to the constructors but not much. Mostly this is things like the brand of pipe fittings that are sometimes slightly different. Some of this I don't like for example they will often permit bell end pipe or couplers and some allow buried bond clamps that are not really designed to be buried.
• You'll also need a complete set of specs for the grade of rebar, strength of concrete, rebar schedule, applicable codes etc.
• Stamped structural drawings for all structural components.
• Equipment list and pad location (usually shown on the plan view or piping layout)

Some of your required detail is a matter of how much risk you want to take. For example, my rear setback line only gives me about 1.5' of clearance from back of pool. I should be able to just measure back from the house survey but I didn't want to take a chance on this so I had the surveyor stake a like on the lot that showed exactly where the setback line was.

I hope this is helpful and please feel free to ask follow ups if needed.

Chris

 

[mikmac2477]

Mike,

Sorry for the delay, consulting clients full of emergencies this week. Interesting questions, I'll do my best to answer.

In this process you're going from conceptual "I want a pool" through the many concepts that will work for your back yard to select a concept that you like based on your criteria. That's usually a list like:

• What fits
• What are my personal preferences
• What rules do I have to comply with (local requirements for construction, set backs, HOA rules)
• What can I afford
• What will make wife and family happy

Once you select a concept from sketches like the ones you attached you'll need to start real design work. There's a certain amount of detail that you need to ensure the pool will work and to construct it. Most of the time some of this must be submitted to your local building department and sometimes there are additional documents. For example, you'll definitely need hydraulic calcs to size plumbing, equipment etc. And your building department will want to look at these. But they'll also want to see how you are going to comply with their requirement to implement child barriers. There are several ways to do this but they're not required to build the pool.

So at the end of the day the level of detail is driven mostly by what's needed for construction and to satisfy the permitting process in your local area. You can't build the pool using subs with the detail level in examples you show. But you can select style, location and what's affordable. To build it using subs you need at least:

• Site drawing/survey showing location, dimensions, drainage plan(elevations) and proving you're within the setbacks.
• Underground piping and electrical
• Structural layout that shows where the rebar goes, how thick the concrete is, where the penetrations are for plumbing, drains, returns, lights and other fixtures
• Hydraulic calculations, operating points
• Electrical design details like load list, location of sub panel, bond system design, sufficient calcs to show you comply with code
• Construction details to show things that are required to build like how you overlap rebar, position and install fittings (like skimmers, drains, light fittings, returns, spa jets etc), pipe and electrical. There are a LOT of section drawings that show constructors how to do everything from corners to light fixtures.
• Some details are left to the constructors but not much. Mostly this is things like the brand of pipe fittings that are sometimes slightly different. Some of this I don't like for example they will often permit bell end pipe or couplers and some allow buried bond clamps that are not really designed to be buried.
• You'll also need a complete set of specs for the grade of rebar, strength of concrete, rebar schedule, applicable codes etc.
• Stamped structural drawings for all structural components.
• Equipment list and pad location (usually shown on the plan view or piping layout)

Some of your required detail is a matter of how much risk you want to take. For example, my rear setback line only gives me about 1.5' of clearance from back of pool. I should be able to just measure back from the house survey but I didn't want to take a chance on this so I had the surveyor stake a like on the lot that showed exactly where the setback line was.

I hope this is helpful and please feel free to ask follow ups if needed.

Chris

Hey Chris, so I got a lot of things figured out. And am much farther along then I was. I’m getting ready to reach out to subs but I still don’t have plumbing or electrical plans and don’t really know how to do that. I have a site plan and pool plans with dimensions and everything. I don’t have all the specific plumbing plans or electrical plans. I have an idea of what I need. I don’t know how to go about getting that or creating them.
Am I gonna be able to just hand all the subs my site and pool plans and permits and they will know what to do? Or will I have to get a detailed plan for each sub? Ex: excavating plans, plumbing plans, electrical plans, gas plans. Etc.

 

[TinFoilHat]

You probably need to enlist the help of a freelance pool designer who can draw that all up for you. You need a permit which requires all of those plans done properly before the permit is issued.

 

[setsailsoon]

Hey Chris, so I got a lot of things figured out. And am much farther along then I was. I’m getting ready to reach out to subs but I still don’t have plumbing or electrical plans and don’t really know how to do that. I have a site plan and pool plans with dimensions and everything. I don’t have all the specific plumbing plans or electrical plans. I have an idea of what I need. I don’t know how to go about getting that or creating them.
Am I gonna be able to just hand all the subs my site and pool plans and permits and they will know what to do? Or will I have to get a detailed plan for each sub? Ex: excavating plans, plumbing plans, electrical plans, gas plans. Etc.

Mike,
Where did you get the site plan and pool plans? They should include hydraulic calcs that are required for pressure drop and line sizing. Same for electrical and structural. The structural design shows rebar schedule and details plus concrete strength and thickness plus all the details needed by the craft labor to do corners, penetrations etc. You'll need to find out what your building department requires which is probably going to be stamped structural drawings, hydraulic calcs showing the actual operating point and sufficient electrical detail to demonstrate your electric service can handle the load. Even if the building department does not require stamped drawing I'd get them. Usually only costs a couple hundred $ extra to the pool design and they take personal liability for the design so it gives you a level of confidence everything will work. In my case this only required a load list for the pool sub-panel since it was installed with the house build. If you don't have an existing sub-panel they'll want you do the load list for the whole house. You'll want to get bids from the subs based on your drawings and specs from your pool design. They will expect you to give them the plans in your request for proposals from them. You'll also want to inspect their work against your plans. Building Department will require inspections that will be identified on your building permit. Once you get your plans completed you should ask to meet with a plan reviewer and get them to help you understand their process for setting up inspections etc.

Chris