Optimize Your In-Floor Cleaning Effectiveness and Efficiency

[Dodger]

Is it easily replaceable? They are pretty cheap on amazon and the one I put in, 0-30PSI, can be read in roughly .25PSI increments (of course not for absolute accuracy, but for comparison purposes). It’s pretty easy to tell when it is the middle of the 1 PSI marks (.5), or “not quite” in the middle to one side (.25, .75).

One advantage I have possibly is that I stop my valves from rotating when I am doing these manifold psi readings so it is pretty rock solid. I believe you mentioned one time that your valve manifold does not have that capability?

I need to talk with Caretaker. The replacement they sell is the same resolution as the original. And since this one installs directly into the manifold dome, I suspect the other ones available may not be compatible.

And no, my valve does not have a pause feature. This is one reason I'm not trying to take any more extensive data than I have. Also, the range of pressure (and therefore power and gpm) in each of my 5 zones varies by 3-4psi, so I can't get a representative value from just one zone.

Dodger, I know you didn’t put in a FlowVis, have you done any gpm calculation using Marks tables to look at your EF ratings? Also, do you run at lower speeds (for filtering/skimming) through your wall returns, or do you do that through your popups? You did see that there was a huge difference in my system for the EF between those two cases...yours is probably better but just wondering if you checked it.

I have not done these. Honestly, I'm not hugely interested in the EF angle yet. I have not resolved my deadspots. And at this time of year, I only open the pop-ups a small number of hours per week, so it's not costing that much. If I'm calculating things correctly, I'm paying about $15/month for normal "skimming" (1600rpm, wall only), and another $5-$10mo when I open the pop-ups 100%.

I do not do a low-rpm combo of skim+pop-ups because my Caretaker valve stutters and grinds if there is not enough flow.

 

[KDpoolguy]

Dodge, I’ve seen the caretaker manifolds and you may be able to take the stopper that A&A sells (let me know I can send product #) to fit into your gear system. It may work.

Have y’all tried the fluid-filled (glycerine) pressure gauges? SO much more accurate. I need accuracy for the IFCS. I can usually tell based on increase of 7-10 psi from clean filter pressure reading, and poor filtering is time to clean filter. I don’t have a pressure gauge near manifold, and only recently replaced it and replumbed all 5 ports so missed the boat on including it. I also just replumbed some areas btw heater and filter and considered FlowVis, but I seem to have a good grasp on gpm. After reading this it’s all a wish list now. Your calcs are still really helpful if only as a general perspective on my system.

 

[jonpcar]

Also, the range of pressure (and therefore power and gpm) in each of my 5 zones varies by 3-4psi, so I can't get a representative value from just one zone.

Wow, that’s a quite a bit of variance. I checked all my zones and they are within 1psi of eachother.

Honestly, I'm not hugely interested in the EF angle yet. I have not resolved my deadspots. And at this time of year, I only open the pop-ups a small number of hours per week, so it's not costing that much.

I hear you. Like you, I’m not in this to lower my monthly pool cost…it’s really for the challenge of figuring out what CAN be done, but I sure do appreciate your input!

 

[jonpcar]

Kevin…your system does sound very much like mine. I’ve had the “spaceship diverter” in my skimmer since 1993 until recently. My IFCS works best when suctioning from the bottom drain of the pool. My current opinion is that this is the case for almost all IFCSs. So for all those years when I only had a single speed pump, I kept that skimmer diverter flap almost all way closed (90%+) so that most of the water was pulled from the bottom drain (a guess: 75% bottom drain/25% skimmer). The exception...after a monsoon dust storm I would change that flap to 100% bottom draw for a couple days, to clear the dirt. This doesn't happen as much these years since suburbia has extended so far out in all directions around my home...less dust when the storm finally blows into my neighborhood.

Over the past few years since my remodel, I realized that with my VSP there was this dilemma: how do I manually position that flap in order to take advantage of high psi cleaning (bottom drain draw), and still skim effectively when I am running at low RPM for skimming/filtering. Closing the flap 90% doesn’t pull enough water through the skimmers when running at VSP low rpm. If I adjust that flap to say 50%, the skimmer works at VSP low rpms, but the high speed cleaning through the popups is somewhat hobbled because there is very little main drain suction. I am guessing again, but at 50% positioning, I would say 75-80% of the water comes through the skimmer and only 20-25% of the water comes from the bottom drain.

Truthfully when I recently decided to tackle this problem, I didn't give the simple adjustment method much of a chance...designing a new diverter seemed like much more fun...haha! It may be possible to adjust the flap to get acceptable flow rates for cleaning AND skimming. Not sure, my efforts to characterize the flows through the "spaceship" using various positions of its diverter flap had already failed. I didn't want to take the time to actually test these various positions due to all the other things I am currently working on, maybe in the future. Based on my experience looking at this issue, and for those that want to try it, my best guess is that the flap would have to be closed in the 70-85% range to accomplish that based on my popup flow (cGPM=62) and skimming flow of 30gpm.

I needed an automatic method to switch the suction between the drain and skimmer. If I had separate pipes running from the main drain AND skimmer run back to my pump, I wouldn’t hesitate to put an automated 3-way valve to control that for my IFCS. But like you, I only have that skimmer port with the “spaceship” diverter.

I came up with this second idea (my first idea failed, but it was actually simpler and came very close to working, it may work for some systems so I'll give a shot at explaining it in another post)…but here are the caveats:

1. I only have one StaRite skimmer, I don’t think this would work with two (sorry Dodger)
2. There must be a significant difference in gpm flows between “popup cleaning” VS filtering/skimming. In my case, I have roughly 60gpm popups and 30gpm filtering/skimming
3. This device requires some tools and tool usage to create; it also needs to be “tuned” to the system

The concept is simple but harder to implement than might appear. I ordered a 5” Schedule 40 PVC CAP from Home Depot and found that it was the same diameter as the “spaceship diverter”. The pictures will help visualize. First I drilled a 3” hole in it and two bracket holes. In addition, in the next picture you will see that this PVC CAP also has to be "shortened" so that it can fit under the skimmer basket.



Here is what the end product looks like. That valve plate on top was made from a 3” PVC Sewer/Drain Cap and it opens and shuts based on a bracket mounted spring below it. When gpm is high during popup cleaning, the valve closes and most suction is drawn from the pool main drain. When gpm is low, the valve opens (or stays open, as show in the picture below) and most suction is drawn through the skimmer via that 3” hole.



Here is what the underneath looks like. The spring/bolts/nuts are stainless steel, the bracket is aluminum.



Here is the side-by-side picture of the original spaceship and the new diverter.



That’s it…I have had to “tune” the spring mechanism and work out a few glitches, but it works! Like I said previously…it’s pretty specific to my pool.

 

[KDpoolguy]

Holy pool tech Batman! HMPBTSFO (Holding My Pool Brush To Stop From Falling Over)
You need to build, patent and sell that thing! That would be perfect for my pool—we both have the StaRite U3 skimmer with exact same diverter float. I hope you’re keeping the rubber gasket at bottom of skimmer in good Shape?

Great share, maybe I’ll make that a project one day. Thx!

 

[jonpcar]

You need to build, patent and sell that thing! That would be perfect for my pool—we both have the StaRite U3 skimmer with exact same diverter float. I hope you’re keeping the rubber gasket at bottom of skimmer in good Shape?

Yes, you and the 25 other people who actually use that skimmer flap may be interested. The “caveats” probably lowers that number of interested people to 2-3, including us, haha. Both rubber gaskets for my spaceship have been missing for years. As it turns out, there is a need for a little “leakage” in my contraption to avoid water hammer so I won’t be replacing that gasket.

Just to let everyone know, using this device may introduce a couple concerns (more caveats) for some people. The first concern is that I have officially lost my ability to keep pump prime if the water level in my pool goes below the skimmer…I actually haven’t had this for years as my spaceship was not water-tight (especially since I don’t have the gaskets). I’ve never had this situation happen in 25 years with my autofill…but it doesn’t mean that it won’t.

The 2^nd concern is that your main drain better not have a pre-2008 cover on it as there would be concerns about entrapment/entanglement. My new drain cover is fully compliant in of itself, but I don’t have a 2^nd parallel drain as is now required for new builds. Once again, I wish I had added a channel drain (the type of drain Dirk points out in every drain thread), both for IFCS cleaning purposes and safety. This was a $500 option when I resurfaced my pool but I didn’t realize the advantages when I turned it down. For owners of pools with IFCS and are getting a resurfacing, I would definitely recommend adding an AVSC channel drain. I wouldn’t even consider a new build IFCS without it.

 

[jonpcar]

For completeness, here is what my first (failed) attempt at creating a diverter to accomplish my goals looked like (draw from drain when using high rpm popups, draw from skimmer at low rpm). It was much simpler and may work for some depending on how their pump controller interacts with their pump. Eventually, I am planning on using a Raspberry Pi system to monitor/control my pool…a fun project that may or may not ever happen…if I do, I would probably revert back to this failed attempt rather than what I ended up with.

I posted the previous picture with my “spaceship” for a reason. The spaceship is what I first modified in an attempt to accomplish my goals. The diverter flap on the bottom of the spaceship was removed, and the three bolts were added on top so that the float valve can be adjusted towards the “spaceship hole”. When “pushed down appropriately by the bolts,” the high gpm flow for the popups cause the the float valve to “catch” and actually seal, which diverts all suction to the main drain (used for popup cleaning). The distance required between the float valve and the hole is determined by the gpm flow. That distance is found and “tuned” by increasing or decreasing the distance between the float and the hole by simply turning the bolts appropriately when running at the high gpm flow.



The problem I had was getting the float valve to “release” at lower rpms. In my system, my Ecommand 4 does a pump prime when the pump starts up (high rpm) which closes the float whenever the pump starts. When the pump finishes priming then drops to its lower rpm (for skimming), the float would not release given the 30gpm that I am skimming at. I attempted to “help” it release by drilling the holes (closed by the rubber stoppers in the picture) to allow leakage. I drilled four and still needed more so I gave up; additional holes would have caused problems in initially “catching and closing” the float valve at high rpm, and/or too much leakage from the skimmer while running the popups at high rpm.

Modifying the spaceship in this fashion MAY work for those that have pump control systems that can accomplish one of the following:

1) If prime is not necessary in your system and your pump/controller doesn’t require it, then starting up the pump at a lower rpm for skimming shouldn’t close and lock your float like it does mine

2) if your controller allows changing pump speed without doing a prime cycle do the following: (a) start out at higher rpm (prime/cleaning) and the float valve will close, (b) drop rpm extremely low to allow the float valve to release, (c) raise rpm to desired “skimming” rpm. The float valve should stay up and flow will be maximized through the skimmer when operating at lower rpms.

3) There are some systems that don't have a controller, they use the controls built into the VSP pump itself. Those pump controls may allow a scenario like #2 to be implemented. Even in my Hayward EcoStar, I think this is possible but currently I want to use my Ecommand4 to control my pump, despite some other limitations that I have with it.

I think there are systems out there that CAN USE this method…drilling three holes in the top of the spaceship and putting in 3 stainless steel bolts is easy. Just be careful to not drill into the actual float when drilling the holes on top. Kevin, if your pump controller supports it, I would recommend trying this. No harm, no foul to your spaceship (especially because you wouldn’t have to drill the “release holes” like I started doing).

 

[KDpoolguy]

I’ve gotta tackle my auto-fill repair this weekend and having electrical gremlins too. Been thinking hard about this, especially as we enter our windy season where sand and dirt dump into my pool.
I do get concerned about the reducing intended redundancy for the floats intended purpose if auto fill fails and water level goes below skimmer.
Ive been impressed at how well my IFC has worked since I installed float.

We’ve been house hunting and found a home the other day where their ‘spaceship’ was just thrown in a heap by the pad. Irritating that pool companies don’t replace these. I digress.
I’ll think on this some more.

 

[Dodger]

Ive been impressed at how well my IFC has worked since I installed float.

Can you expand on this? I am curious.

 

[KDpoolguy]

Can you expand on this? I am curious.

Before I didn’t have this critical part that sits at bottom of my skimmer-in fact it’s meant to be at bottom of all u3 style skimmers with main drain plumbed through the skimmer. It’s a brilliant system so if water evaporates below skimmer level-float closes suction from skimmer and thus only intakes from main drain so the pump won’t lose prime and overheat. It’s happened to me before with other pools where there was just a valve to share suction-where this has happened. I managed an apartment with a 30k gal pool that I’m responsible for killing 2 pumps (oops). My pool is the first I’ve had with auto fill.

There’s a weir door that’s adjustable on the float to throttle intake between drain and skim. Mine is set at 2/3 closed for more suction through drain, and it skims well at this level. Any further closed and my pump has sucked float closed during prime.

Before I was only taking in warmer water on top (intake thru skimmer only) and this could be seen for IFC cleaning issues but also poor chemical circulation. Yes, it helped that water was cycling back at pool bottom, that’s all that saved me.

 

[Dodger]

Ah, I see. For some reason, I thought you were referring to the float on your auto-fill.