Okay fine - sell me on a robot over a pressure side cleaner

[dfwnoob]

I've taken tons of good advice from the group here over the last month, I may a well hear some more opinions from the experts. This will be long, but maybe it can be helpful to other people in the future.

Currently, we have a Polaris 280. Right after we moved in, I bought a new one because the 12+ year old 280 that was on site was in sorry shape. Definitely has some stripped gears in there somewhere, failing reversing valve, erratic operation. Found an Amazon Warehouse "like new" model for cheap and picked that up. Ended up being brand new, still in all the packaging and never opened. It's done it's job and keeps the bottom of the pool clean. Doesn't ask for anything outside of emptying the bag. Unfortunately, now the booster pump is on it's way out. It sounds horrible, like bearing failure. If I want to replace this, it's $450. If robots are truly better, I'd rather put that toward a robot.

Obviously there are many proponents of the electronic robots here! Lots of people seem to love theirs. However, I also see lots of folks posting about failures on here. This section of the forum is page after page of robot problems: won't climb the walls, won't clean the whole pool, gets stuck in the corner, gets stuck on stairs, won't power on, turns off after a few minutes, can't get parts, etc etc. The Polaris has never done any of these things. As long as it has pressure, it dutifully wanders around the pool and picks up debris. If it gets stuck, the reversing valve will eventually activate and pull it away from the obstruction. I get that pressure-side cleaner technology isn't exactly modern or cool or hip, but it's hard to argue that it just works and needs relatively no maintenance. This is a big sticking point for me. I'm no luddite, but I'm also old enough to understand that new ≠ better. I really need some SOME sort of evidence they truly work better and will be less cheaper in the long term. You can buy every single part for a Polaris at virtually any pool store and they are very DIY and "right to repair" friendly. Robots are a black box. Battery operated models are a non-starter.

So I made a pros and cons list for each, I just need to know what I'm missing.

Pressure-side pros:
Cheap! The original booster pump lasted 16 years. Last Polaris was at least 12 years old.
Total parts availability.
Non-electronic, nothing to fail electrically on the cleaner side.
Already plumbed in, no electrical cords running across the patio.
Lives in the pool 24/7. Don't need to take it in and out.
Just works. If it has pressure, it's rolling.
Sufficient cleaning. I don't have leaves, pebbles, sand, or anything on my pool floor. The bag gets full of fine sand, so I know it's sucking up all sorts of small stuff.
Rolls over drain covers with ease, has never once got stuck anywhere in the pool.

Pressure-side cons:
Very high electrical usage.
Separate booster pump is a failure point.
Ugly hose in the pool all the time, unless you take it out.
No waterline cleaning.
Stupid tail thing spits water out of the pool.
Dog gets angry and chases robot when it spits water out of the pool.
Made by Zodiac, who are a bunch of jagoffs.

Robot pros:
Minimal energy consumption.
No ugly hose in the pool.
Most modern ones clean the waterline, even basic models.
Usually better at cleaning up the walls than a Polaris.
Won't spit water out of the pool.
Not made by Zodiac, avoiding jagoffs.

Robot cons:
Expensive. Sometimes eye-wateringly so.
Limited lifespan. After reviewing dozens of posts here, most die within 5 years. This must be factored into the total cost of ownership.
Minimal to zero repair ability for anything electronic. Generally forced to replace an entire assembly (e.g. the power supply/controller). Motors are over $400.
Electrical cord running across the patio.
Some people have issues with robots getting stuck on drain cover, stairs, etc.

So the way I'm seeing it, robots only seem to make financial sense if you only look at the electric usage of a pressure-side cleaner. Over the course of ~4 years, a robot will pay for itself in lower electrical usage, but this is also seemingly the average time before failure, leading to an expensive repair or a totally new $1000 robot. Which seems to me the whole thing comes out in the wash, or in the red. So to come back to my original question: what's the benefit I'm not seeing here? If I already have a pool set up for a pressure side cleaner, is there really any reason to move to a robot instead of just replacing the failing booster pump?

 

[Rocket J Squirrel]

You seem to have done your research, so I don't have much to add. I'll give you one very cheap and one very expensive solution to these two problems.

Pressure-side cons:
No waterline cleaning.
Stupid tail thing spits water out of the pool.

Cheap: The tail thing can be replaced by a Tail Sweep Pro. I have used this and it does not spray outside the pool.

Expensive: The Polaris Quattro is a pressure-side cleaner which climbs aggressively and will clean your walls and waterline.

 

[Newdude]

Over the course of ~4 years, a robot will pay for itself in lower electrical usage, but this is also seemingly the average time before failure, leading to an expensive repair or a totally new $1000 robot

So then the robot is free from the electricity savings spent on the Polaris alone. Which you had to buy for $450, making your cost of ownership $450 more for a less efficient machine. You will also never have to replace another booster pump.

Sounds like a home run to me from your math.

 

[jedigrover]

I find myself asking the same questions. I know people that love their robots. I'm intrigued, because it seems like they actually do the brushing for you, which is something my Polaris 280 can't do. My 280 is getting awfully long in the tooth, but I put in another rebuild kit and should hopefully keep it going another year or 2. In the meantime, I'm studying this issue.

On the other hand, to add to your list of Cons for the robots:
- there seems to be debate over whether they can or cannot be left in the pool

I know myself and know that if I had to go out and manually drop the thing in the pool 3x a week, I'm going to miss some of my times because of kids/work/life in general. My Polaris is on a time clock and I don't worry about it except when it stops working.

On the other hand, many robots are advertising "scheduling" which doesn't make sense if they can't be left in the pool. ::::
Also, it seems most / all the power supply / control units are not weatherproof. Really? You can make a totally waterproof robot, but can't protect the controller against the elements, then add a scheduling feature but expect people to beat the clock to come out and drop the robot in the water? Something doesn't add up. Either their marketing is wack, or their understanding of how people function / what people desire in a cleaner is wack, or my understanding of it all is wack. I hope it's the latter.

It does seem like a wash from the total cost of ownership, so I'm looking for what's the better option from a keeps my pool clean vs. convenience perspective.

Can any robot folks straighten this out?

 

[dfwnoob]

* I am bad at math, please feel free to check my numbers *

Well, @Newdude you made me go back through my numbers because I forgot, hey, our electricity rates are getting jacked up! After 6/1, we'll be paying 14.3¢/kWh. So let's go back and do the math..

The PB4-60 boost pump is rated at 6.4 amps @ 230v, which equals 1472w. My cleaner is scheduled to run 4 hours a day, so that's 5.88 kWh/day.

One year total electricity costs: 2149.12 x 0.143 = $307.32. Assuming a 5 year lifespan, that is $1,536.62 in electricity costs alone. Additional costs would be $475 for the Polaris (already paid, sunk cost), and $450 for the booster. So, total cost of ownership over 5 years, assuming nothing needs to be replaced on the Polaris is $2461.62. I don't know what the electricity costs are on a robot, but they use a fraction of a fraction of the power the boost pump does.

If electricity was cheap like it used to be, I think it would truly be a wash. Ultimately, I guess you're right. If you're looking at this financially, the robot is cheaper over 5 years, IF the robot makes it 5 years.

That does not include what I'll call "total annoyance of ownership" such as putting the robot in and out of the pool, bringing the controller inside, etc. Strictly financially, right now, at my electricity rates, the robot is much cheaper. Something for me to think about.

 

[jedigrover]

The PB4-60 boost pump is rated at 6.4 amps @ 230v, which equals 1472w. My cleaner is scheduled to run 4 hours a day, so that's 5.88 kWh/day.

4hrs a day???

I used to run mine 1hr a day, but have cut to 30min a day & it does well enough. That allows me to drop my main pump to low speed sooner, saving more. How big is your pool or what do you have dropping trash in it that you need to run the cleaner that long every day?

 

[dfwnoob]

It runs for an hour 4 times throughout the day and night since my neighbor has an enormous tree that drops all sorts of garbage into my pool. Big heavy leaves, seed pods(?), random tree parts I don't know what they are, etc. All day. With the winds we've had here lately, It's been out of control. It wasn't bad at all in the winter, so I'll be able to dial the cleaning way back during the cold months. I tried running it 2 hours a day (one in the morning, one at night) and stuff just kept collecting at the bottom of the pool. 4 for now has been the happy medium. I will have to re-evaluate as we move into summer and that tree stops blooming.

 

[Jimrahbe]

There is no doubt that robots are not for everyone.

The main reason I own a robot, is that I don't like seeing a cleaner in my pool. I like the idea that I can run it once or twice a week and then take it out. We don't swim with it in the pool either, just because it spoils the view.

I also like the idea that it cleans the walls and waterline tile.

It makes my plumbing simpler.

It does not require a booster pump.

I look at a robot as a consumable, just like my salt cell. When it wears out, I'll just buy a new one.

I do believe that robots pick up stuff, that other cleaners do not, but not to the point where you can visually tell the difference.

I have been using robots for about 15 years.. My first robots were used when I bought them. They have come a long way since then.. I bought a Dolphin Premier new, which lasted me 7 years. It taught me that all the bells and whistle are not needed and just cost more money. I now have three Dolphin S200 "style" robots. I don't yet know how long they will last, but they are heads and shoulders better than the older style Dolphins.

dfwnoob... you don't need our permission not to by a robot.. If you don't want one, don't buy one. They are not for everyone.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[jedigrover]

Oof. That stinks. My neighbor had a huge oak tree to the south that wasn't an issue in summer, but in winter it would drop its leaves. Being to the south, with the typical south winds in fall/winter, my pool was a magnet for all the trees. Though snowmageddon in '21 was murder on my pool, the bright side is that it killed most of that tree, so the new neighbors took it down. That should help come this winter.

 

[Newdude]

So, total cost of ownership over 5 years, assuming nothing needs to be replaced on the Polaris is $2461.62

And a robot is $800-$1000 plus a very low electricity use cost. You can buy 2 robots and change in the same 5 years to break even. If the robot lasts 5 years it saved you the cost of the next one.

That's not just a home run. That's a game 7, bottom of the ninth, walkoff homer.

 

[dfwnoob]

That's not just a home run. That's a game 7, bottom of the ninth, walkoff homer.

I can't argue with that, the numbers are very clear!

dfwnoob... you don't need our permission not to by a robot.. If you don't want one, don't buy one. They are not for everyone.

It's not so much asking for permission, it's that I want to get the best bang for my buck. There's nothing I hate more than spending a bunch of money and then finding out a month later I could have gotten something much better for cheaper.

Oof. That stinks. My neighbor had a huge oak tree to the south that wasn't an issue in summer, but in winter it would drop its leaves. Being to the south, with the typical south winds in fall/winter, my pool was a magnet for all the trees. Though snowmageddon in '21 was murder on my pool, the bright side is that it killed most of that tree, so the new neighbors took it down. That should help come this winter.

We have our own giant tree in the front yard with a trillion leaves on it, so I can't wait for the fall winds to blow them clear over the house and into my pool. I love the look of an established neighborhood with big mature trees, but man they are a pain. Not to mention the tree in my yard is causing serious issues with drying out the soil and creating interesting foundation problems.

 

[pjt]

Robot cons:
Expensive.

My S200 clone was $650 after rebate, including tax and shipping. For what it provides, it's a bargain.

Limited lifespan. After reviewing dozens of posts here, most die within 5 years.

It's a consumable, just like any other appliance. If it breaks in five years, I'll get the new model with improved features and capabilities.

Electrical cord running across the patio.

There are clever ways to conceal the cord. I would run a conduit for a robot if doing another new build.

 

[Homebrewale]

When I had my Polaris 380, I took it out of the pool after every use just like I do my robot. No advantage to the Polaris.

 

[SDor]

You might want to rethink a bit based on your usage. The neighbor's tree is dropping so much you run your Polaris 4 times a day. Not sure how you're going to match that with a robot.

My robot (Pentair 920) takes ~2 hours to cover my 16 x 32 ft pool. My Polaris can do it in an hour (granted, the robot is scrubbing the sides, too... but then, the neighbor's junk probably doesn't need to be scrubbed off the side of the pool). However, running it 4 times a day (assuming you figure out some kind of smart plug configuration that would allow this since the programming on the simple models max frequency is 1 per day) would most likely wear it out faster. Also, if your robot is running 8 hours a day, when are you going to find time to swim? .

There's also the Polaris PB4SQ booster pump that is 4.5Amps/230V = 1035 W or ~30% more efficient (and also very quiet). It might be a bit more expensive (~$600 vs $450), but to me, it being quiet was worth the extra expense. The fact that it's more efficient helps as well. It's still holding strong after ~5-ish years.

Finally, if the debris floats for a while before it sinks (like leaves, but not acorns or most seed pods), you might look at a solar skimmer. They seem to work pretty well (although durability is still a question) at getting stuff before it sinks.

 

[dfwnoob]

It looks like tree may actually be done blooming. I'll change the Polaris down to running 1 hour a day and see how clean things stay. I haven't seen nearly as much debris in the pool in the last couple of weeks.

Now that I've run the numbers, the sheer cost of operating the Polaris has certainly made me more interested in a robot than anything else so far. I will certainly take another look at the PB4SQ pump. Given how the Polaris is intended to have a pressure reduction disc to be installed in the return port, it seems like they could certainly sell a much less powerful, less power-hungry pump and achieve the same performance for most use cases.

 

[SDor]

Yes, I no longer need a pressure reduction disk with the PB4SQ. The full flow from the pump drives my Polaris within spec.

 

[Homebrewale]

A chainsaw may work in this situation.