Not enough water on spa jets

[Ti3155]

It could be my filter is too small for the pump ?
I was advised one time to replace it with 36" or cartridge filter

 

[Ti3155]

Maybe I can install the flow rate control one on the suction side and one on the return side so that way I know the exact flow I have on each line ?
dont you think the when in spa mode it shows 29gpm because it doesnt get enough water out of the spa ?
because in the pool its getting more because Im pulling from 2 skimmers and the main drain

 

[mas985]

Should I not use it on 30 psi ? it will damage the filter and pump ?
I can go with 3150 @ 20-24psi

30 PSI is not damaging. It just reduces flow rate just as what you are experiencing.

Also, efficiency wise, the pump will use a lot more energy for a given flow rate with higher head loss plumbing. Your system could be much more energy efficient if you can determine the issue.

 

[mas985]

It could be my filter is too small for the pump ?
I was advised one time to replace it with 36" or cartridge filter

It is a little small for that pump but it shouldn't be causing that much head loss.

 

[mas985]

Maybe I can install the flow rate control one on the suction side and one on the return side so that way I know the exact flow I have on each line ?
dont you think the when in spa mode it shows 29gpm because it doesnt get enough water out of the spa ?
because in the pool its getting more because Im pulling from 2 skimmers and the main drain

Flow rate is the same on both sides of the pump. The only time flow rate changes in pipes is when the flow splits between two pipes.

The reason you have 29 GPM in spa mode is because there is high head loss in both the suction and return side plumbing.

The pool has higher flow rate because the suction is fine but there is still high head loss in the return side plumbing. Better but not that much better.

 

[Ti3155]

Flow rate is the same on both sides of the pump. The only time flow rate changes in pipes is when the flow splits between two pipes.

The reason you have 29 GPM in spa mode is because there is high head loss in both the suction and return side plumbing.

The pool has higher flow rate because the suction is fine but there is still high head loss in the return side plumbing. Better but not that much better.

I see , what's your call ?
What should I do next you think ?

 

[mas985]

Does the filter MPV have a bypass or recirculation mode? You can try that while in pool mode and see if you get more than 55 GPM. If it is a lot more, then there could be something wrong with the filter.

Have you inspected the SWG cell lately? Scale buildup can also reduce flow.

 

[Ti3155]

No scale its clean, yes I ha e 6 way ill try circulation later ,

I remember one thing the installed want to wait 30 days after plaster to install the heater , so the same problem was without the heater installed , now I remember that

 

[Ti3155]

But I had some leaks and they were fixed (even after the heater installed) so idk , maybe I need to replace the entire plumbing now idk what else to think and pvc now so expensive

 

[Ti3155]

Spillway off .
Going only to pool return

Tomorrow I want to try one more thing what you think ?
How about if I close the pool returns completely, kinda bypass the pool mode for few minutes , that will direct all the water to the spa , the water will come from the pool only , spa main drain closed .

My skimmer has 2” pips along with another skimmer 1.5” pipe and main drain at the pool also 1.5” pipe , I want to check and see the flow rate at full speed , on standard pool mode I’m getting 55mpg and at the spa I’m only getting 29gpm , if I will get 55mpg in that situation I will know for sure something is not right on then spa pressure side so I can check the following ..
The check valve on the spa return line and the 3 way valve , maybe it doesn’t open all the way , is that sound like a good way to start a new method of checking the lines ?

I just thought about it , if it’s 55 in pool mode and the returns at the pool shooting nice amount of water then if I close them all the water will go to the spa , basicly it will be a spillway open without returning any water to the pool body, I guess if all valves working properly It gotta be something in the plumbing inside the spa .

The reason i want to check it because if I’m getting 55gpm from all of the 3 suctions from the pool I can use them to test the spa lines because 55 should be enough for 5/16 nozzle .

What you thing ?

 

[Ti3155]

One more thing I was thinking about , did you get a chance to read what happened last night when my son used the spa for several hours and the jets start pushing air ?

I was thinking also , maybe the pb did not build the loop high enough ? Maybe the spillway is too high and the water level at the spa is high enough so the water running through the airline , I’m asking that because the jets start working after the spa drained about 3-4” (water got back to the pool because they were too many people sitting at the spa so the water pushed out of the spa back to the pool through spillway opening) I can drain the spa tomorrow just like it was that day and see if the jets will do the same thing.

What your opinion about that ?

 

[Ti3155]

So I want to update something that happened out of the blue last night .

My son used the spa with his friends and they were sitting there for few hours , the water level was down under the tipe , maybe 3"-4" under the tile (exposed the plaster) , so I stepped outside to check on them and this is the first time that happened , I see 2 of the jets working , pushing water and air , the blower was off , I have a 3 watly valve installed on the blower pipe (at the equipment pad) so I can control the amount of air coming out at the spa .

Today was the first time i see water and air actually coming through the spa wall unless i use the blower , I was very excited and that what I was looking for , spa action without blower , so now I have to figure out why the other 4 jets doesn't work .

I ordered 1/4" anyway so I can get better velocity.

Do you think the amount of air was only enough for 2 jets because it was too far (120' from the spa) ?

I flush the pipes before installing the new jets today .

By the way I did exactly what you told me , I cover both ends with epoxy and drilled holes but I think some fly out with the water pressure , and if the epoxy was holding the water were shooting not in straight line it was changing from thin to thick or the opposite on some of the jets .

Maybe that's because I drilled uneven holes on the epoxy (on both sides).

I will respond tomorrow with the information about the pump gpm and psi and we will go from there but dt least I see something moving in the water tonight makes me happy ..

Now , after I changed to pool mode to refill the spa the jets stopped then I tried again in spa mode but this time the jets didn't have air and I cannot see any water like I did before , maybe anything to do with the water level ?

The water level was not even close to the jet opening , it was maybe 8" to 10" higher

If you look on the bottom left jet , you'll see it want to start but no success .

This one ?

 

[Ti3155]

Tomorrow I want to try one more thing what you think ?
How about if I close the pool returns completely, kinda bypass the pool mode for few minutes , that will direct all the water to the spa , the water will come from the pool only , spa main drain closed .

My skimmer has 2” pips along with another skimmer 1.5” pipe and main drain at the pool also 1.5” pipe , I want to check and see the flow rate at full speed , on standard pool mode I’m getting 55mpg and at the spa I’m only getting 29gpm , if I will get 55mpg in that situation I will know for sure something is not right on then spa pressure side so I can check the following ..
The check valve on the spa return line and the 3 way valve , maybe it doesn’t open all the way , is that sound like a good way to start a new method of checking the lines ?

I just thought about it , if it’s 55 in pool mode and the returns at the pool shooting nice amount of water then if I close them all the water will go to the spa , basicly it will be a spillway open without returning any water to the pool body, I guess if all valves working properly It gotta be something in the plumbing inside the spa .

The reason i want to check it because if I’m getting 55gpm from all of the 3 suctions from the pool I can use them to test the spa lines because 55 should be enough for 5/16 nozzle .

What you thing ?

I was thinking about 2 other possible problems .

When the pool finished I start playing with some of the valves on the suction and pressure sides , I even remember I was taking out the check valve for the spa because it was draining back to the pool , I took of the lid by removing the screws and put it right back on , I thing thats how it was , I remember I installed it with the flapper on the spa side so the water can’t flow back to the pool.
I’m pretty sure I installed it right , I will check that as well.

One more thing I remember , as I played with the divert valve on the suction line , as of now seems like it’s operating fine however I remember there are “stoppers” on the valve and I used too much force and I passed thae stoppers , kinda like instead of releasing the handle and lift the handle I force it with my hand, could it be that the “spa mode” the spa main drain is not fully open ? If so how come because the spa doesn’t fill with water and spillway is off.

Another thing is I think I opened the spa/pool returns valve (open the lid) removed the screws and set it back , I remember I was confused once I see “inlet” maybe I did something wrong with this and that is my restriction?
However , it’s still operating properly between spa/pool mode return so could be something with the inlet mark ?

If so , what is the word inlet should be facing ? I don’t remember if I removed the ball itself or not but seems like it’s operationg fine unless there is something that restrict the flow

Thanks

 

[Ti3155]

Look at the picture , this was taken within the equipment installation process and the installed installed the check valve as the flapper is on the right direction , (flapper on the flow side)

When my spa start draining overnight I watched on YouTube “how to fix drained spa” lol , so I went to the check valve I remember clearly I opened it and a lot of water start coming out from the bottom (from the spa jets) and I think , I’m not sure BUT I THINK I was nervous and I did not pay attention to the direction of the flapper because water running all over the place so I’m pretty sure I installed the valve on the opposite direction to block the water from coming out of the return line (the water that coming from the spa itself , maybe I’m wrong , maybe I did installed it the right way but I don’t see why should I cover the pipe with the flapper on the flow side where water was not coming out of , even if that’s the case how come I still get spillway and water going through if the flapper installed the wrong way ?

I’m dying here I want to step outside now to check it but it’s too dark lol , I will know in the morning and IM PRAYING this is the restriction I have but idk how the water are going through the flapper if it’s covering the exit of the return ?

will update

 

[Ti3155]

I would like to give you an update upon checking check valve
So it appears the check valve was returned to its original position as far as flow direction however I'm not quite sure if it's open properly.

When I removed the flapper the spring seems to be strong and it's moving correctly however before I install it back I saw a circle on the back part of the valve body (not the flapper) so I used it as a marker for me, I installed the flapper back and I ran the system in spa mode, I tried to look inside to see if the flapper open/close as the system has been turned on/off , I cannot see the flapper mover either way , I noticed the marker on the back part of the body was still visible through the window , I would think the the marker should he covered by the flapper so I would be able to see it through the window and when the system is off the flapper will go back to its position and the I would see the marker , see picture attacked

 

[mas985]

Tomorrow I want to try one more thing what you think ?
How about if I close the pool returns completely, kinda bypass the pool mode for few minutes , that will direct all the water to the spa , the water will come from the pool only , spa main drain closed .

Should perform nearly the same a spa only mode except the suction plumbing is a little better. This would be a good proxy for what the performance will be like when the suction pipe is increased to 3".

I was thinking also , maybe the pb did not build the loop high enough ? Maybe the spillway is too high and the water level at the spa is high enough so the water running through the airline , I’m asking that because the jets start working after the spa drained about 3-4” (water got back to the pool because they were too many people sitting at the spa so the water pushed out of the spa back to the pool through spillway opening) I can drain the spa tomorrow just like it was that day and see if the jets will do the same thing.

What your opinion about that ?

Spillway height does not matter. Pump is strong enough to lift water over 90' in the air. The venturis are not sucking in the air because there is not enough flow rate. Fix the flow rate, and you will get bubbles.

Look at the picture , this was taken within the equipment installation process and the installed installed the check valve as the flapper is on the right direction , (flapper on the flow side)

When my spa start draining overnight I watched on YouTube “how to fix drained spa” lol , so I went to the check valve I remember clearly I opened it and a lot of water start coming out from the bottom (from the spa jets) and I think , I’m not sure BUT I THINK I was nervous and I did not pay attention to the direction of the flapper because water running all over the place so I’m pretty sure I installed the valve on the opposite direction to block the water from coming out of the return line (the water that coming from the spa itself , maybe I’m wrong , maybe I did installed it the right way but I don’t see why should I cover the pipe with the flapper on the flow side where water was not coming out of , even if that’s the case how come I still get spillway and water going through if the flapper installed the wrong way ?

I’m dying here I want to step outside now to check it but it’s too dark lol , I will know in the morning and IM PRAYING this is the restriction I have but idk how the water are going through the flapper if it’s covering the exit of the return ?

will update

The flapper should be installed on the high side (i.e. pump side ) of the pipe. From the pictures you posted, I cannot tell where the flapper is. Your pictures are either too close or too far away and resolution is too low to zoom in.

 

[Ti3155]

I would like to give you an update upon checking check valve
So it appears the check valve was returned to its original position as far as flow direction however I'm not quite sure if it's open properly.

When I removed the flapper the spring seems to be strong and it's moving correctly however before I install it back I saw a circle on the back part of the valve body (not the flapper) so I used it as a marker for me, I installed the flapper back and I ran the system in spa mode, I tried to look inside to see if the flapper open/close as the system has been turned on/off , I cannot see the flapper mover either way , I noticed the marker on the back part of the body was still visible through the window , I would think the the marker should he covered by the flapper so I would be able to see it through the window and when the system is off the flapper will go back to its position and the I would see the marker , see picture attacked

I went to the local store to see if they have a flapper to sell but I have to buy the entire unit , I checked my flapper and it's moving up and down without a problem , maybe there's not enough water going to the spa so the flapper will not open all the way ?

I can see clearly the flapper is not open all the way however ,

The amount of water coming from the filter/heater to the pool or spa are the same , meaning it's being flowing through one pipe , the only thing I do is changing the direction of the flow , I belive once the water hit the check valve that cause the restriction bc I can see its not opens all the way.

Either way , even in pool mode when the spa gets some of the water the pool still showing 55mpg so I belive (or want to belive) is the check valve flapper .

I can remove the valve again and take out the flapper so I can install it without is , then I'll run it I spa mode and see what happen , my only thing is I will not be able to shut off the pump until I reinstall the flapper bc it will drain back to the Pool .

I guess I will go ahead and purchase another valve just in case if I will not be able to install the flapper back to the cover , just in case what you think ?

 

[Ti3155]

But again , the flapper is working and I can see water running through the window so it might not be the flapper , I'm assuming if the flapper was open all the way as it should the spa will get better water flow. Is the flapper supposed to open all the way ? Because in my situation it looks like it's only open a little bit maybe 10-15 percent, meaning water still going through but not as they should bc 85% of the flapper covering the flow from the filter.

 

[Ti3155]

But again , the flapper is working and I can see water running through the window so it might not be the flapper , I'm assuming if the flapper was open all the way as it should the spa will get better water flow. Is the flapper supposed to open all the way ? Because in my situation it looks like it's only open a little bit maybe 10-15 percent, meaning water still going through but not as they should bc 85% of the flapper covering the flow from the filter.

This is what I was thinking
if its not what it is you were right all the way because you have mentioned that from the beginning , you keep saying its on the pressure side not on the suction side and I always believed there was not enough water coming from the spa because the pipe is only 1.5" and it cannot feed 6x2" jets
So now I guess I need to focus why the spa is not getting enough water, could it be the 5/16" nozzle that cause that as well ?
It is possible that I had a better flowrate before reducing the nozzle to 5/16?
I remember I had 42GPM before I replaced but the information was from the app not from the pump

Before I move forward with the nozzle I think its the check valve and the reason why:
#1 I ran the system yesterday on POOL mode with spillway on (water flow to the pool and to the spa) showing 55GPM
#2 I ran the system yesterday on SPA mode - spillway was off (Water flow only to the spa and circulate the water) showing 29GPM
#3 I ran the system yesterday on Spillway off (Water flow only to the pool returns) showing 55GPM

The only thing I need to check is: Open the main drain for the spa, close the returns to the spa (that will drain the spa to the pool) then I will be able to see if its has better flow rate because it will go back through the pool returns only.

If it is then the problem is between the 3 way valve that divert the water to the spa , check valve , or anywhere in the purple line or the spa wall plumbing?
Do I get this right ?

 

[mas985]

The check valve will not open all the way if the flow rate is too low. It will only open fully when the flow rate is very high. So if you see the check valve opening a little and it is fairly easy to open by hand, then it is likely working ok.

Have you tried the bypass mode in the filter? This will tell you if the filter is the problem.

I am having a hard time understanding what you are writing.

What is the flow rate when the suction valve is set for pool and return valve set for spa?