Not enough water on spa jets

[Ti3155]

For me this is great , I'd love to see the water movement in the spa with or without air BUT AGAIN today was the first time I've seen it , idk if this is the new jets , the time spent in spa mode today , maybe took few hours to build air in the pipe , my son told me this only starts in the last 30 min .

Let's say it was in spa mode for 5 hours , so after maybe 4.5 the 2 jets starts .


Maybe that information help

Thanks

 

[Ti3155]

Do you think if the sir pipe was closer to the spa I will get better airflow ?
Just wonder because for me that's an easy fix , like I said I will split it by installing 3 way so I can control where the air is coming from , I know this doesn't solve the water issue but this is a good start for me

 

[mas985]

By the way I did exactly what you told me , I cover both ends with epoxy and drilled holes but I think some fly out with the water pressure , and if the epoxy was holding the water were shooting not in straight line it was changing from thin to thick or the opposite on some of the jets .

Nooooooooo! I said to cover the nozzle end only (~1/8"). Not both ends. Covering both ends is far too restrictive. You only want to cover the end where the water exits. Not the entire nozzle. These nozzles are now useless unless you can get the epoxy out of the threaded end. Post some pictures of exactly what you did. You really need to confirm what you plan on doing before doing it.

I will respond tomorrow with the information about the pump gpm and psi and we will go from there but dt least I see something moving in the water tonight makes me happy ..

This is very important to figure out what may be going on. For the first tests, just remove all the nozzles, given that they are full of epoxy now. I want to get an idea of the amount of head loss in the spa fittings without the nozzles.

 

[Ti3155]

Oh , gotcha .
Doing now

 

[Ti3155]

Oh , gotcha .
I was called for emergency work today, one of the guys quit let's see when I get back home I'm a truck

I will not have too much time to do all but this is what I'm getting now as pool and spa mode I did not tried the spillway only mode yet

1st set is pool mode with spillway on
2nd set is spa mode
3rd set is spillway off

 

[Ti3155]

Spa mode

 

[Ti3155]

As you can see the GPM on spa mode is very low that's explains why the jets doesn't work , even if I use the small orfice

 

[Ti3155]

So I want to update something that happened out of the blue last night .

My son used the spa with his friends and they were sitting there for few hours , the water level was down under the tipe , maybe 3"-4" under the tile (exposed the plaster) , so I stepped outside to check on them and this is the first time that happened , I see 2 of the jets working , pushing water and air , the blower was off , I have a 3 watly valve installed on the blower pipe (at the equipment pad) so I can control the amount of air coming out at the spa .

Today was the first time i see water and air actually coming through the spa wall unless i use the blower , I was very excited and that what I was looking for , spa action without blower , so now I have to figure out why the other 4 jets doesn't work .

I ordered 1/4" anyway so I can get better velocity.

Do you think the amount of air was only enough for 2 jets because it was too far (120' from the spa) ?

I flush the pipes before installing the new jets today .

By the way I did exactly what you told me , I cover both ends with epoxy and drilled holes but I think some fly out with the water pressure , and if the epoxy was holding the water were shooting not in straight line it was changing from thin to thick or the opposite on some of the jets .

Maybe that's because I drilled uneven holes on the epoxy (on both sides).

I will respond tomorrow with the information about the pump gpm and psi and we will go from there but dt least I see something moving in the water tonight makes me happy ..

Now , after I changed to pool mode to refill the spa the jets stopped then I tried again in spa mode but this time the jets didn't have air and I cannot see any water like I did before , maybe anything to do with the water level ?

The water level was not even close to the jet opening , it was maybe 8" to 10" higher

If you look on the bottom left jet , you'll see it want to start but no success .

Any word on this ?
Probably bc my spa does not pull enough water ?

 

[Ti3155]

Spillway off .
Going only to pool return

 

[mas985]

The spillway on or off doesn't make much of a difference since jet plumbing is significantly worse. However, the operating point of the pool is not all that great either. 55 GPM @ 83' of head is very restrictive so there is also an issue with the pool. The pool operating point should be closer to 90 GPM @ 83' of head so something is not right even with that setup.

Have you tried the following:

Backwash filter
Empty skimmer and pump baskets
Inspect the pump impeller for clogs

What model Intelliflo do you have? I have been assuming the standard VSF model but if you have the i1 or i2, that could explain some of the discrepancy.

Also, the spa mode test above, was it with or without the nozzles?

 

[Ti3155]

The spillway on or off doesn't make much of a difference since jet plumbing is significantly worse. However, the operating point of the pool is not all that great either. 55 GPM @ 83' of head is very restrictive so there is also an issue with the pool. The pool operating point should be closer to 90 GPM @ 83' of head so something is not right even with that setup.

As I said , my plumbing is all 1.5" and the only thing is 2" is one skimmer that i was able to replace the plumbing.

Have you tried the following: of course , all of that!

Honestly Im happy even with 30gpm in pool mode so I run the pump on 2300 save some electric and the pool is always sparkling clear , I really care about the spa now to be honest because it will be easier for me to replace the pipe , if you just see how the stupid builder did the plumbing to the spa with so many returns youd go crazy , thats why i fired him cuz he was an idiot lol
So its nothing is surprising me anymore , I just focusing on the spa for now , when I replace the deck I will replace every single pipe in the system

Backwash filter
Empty skimmer and pump baskets
Inspect the pump impeller for clogs

Have you tried the following:

Backwash filter
Empty skimmer and pump baskets
Inspect the pump impeller for clogs

What model Intelliflo do you have? I have been assuming the standard VSF model but if you have the i1 or i2, that could explain some of the discrepancy.
This is my pump in the pic

Also, the spa mode test above, was it with or without the nozzles? I did not have time to remove the nozzle but as you can see the water flow is weak , I belive this is the plumbing as 1.5 and I think if I replace the drain at the spa to 2.5" it will be great no ?

 

[mas985]

I did not have time to remove the nozzle but as you can see the water flow is weak , I belive this is the plumbing as 1.5 and I think if I replace the drain at the spa to 2.5" it will be great no ?

As I said before, it may help a little but the plumbing has other issues too that needs to be addressed.

Not seeing the pump picture. A model# would be better.

 

[mas985]

Picture showed up. It looks to be a standard Intelliflo.

Here is the issue. The spa mode, spillover and pools modes all have about the same filter pressure and it is very high. So there is some plumbing in common that is causing excess head loss on the RETURN side. Could be the filter or heater.

But even if you fix the spa lines, this head loss is going to prevent enough flow for the jets. Even in pool mode, there is only 55 GPM. Even for pools with 1.5" plumbing, the flow rate should be much higher than that (75 GPM). Something is not working properly.

 

[Ti3155]

Attached plumbing for the spa
This is the all I can get

I want to add one more thing please
When we started the pool we discovered few leaks and we fix them , but since then I have very small air leak somewhere and we cannot locate it , I called leak detection service and they came by , we did water and with air pressure test , after the repair he said there is a very tiny air leak somewhere but he cant point where it is , im not losing water since then (before the repair i lost 1/5" per day.

Now , when I look inside the pump I can see some (not alot) air bubbles sitting at the top of the pump , but when I look inside the pump (not just at the top where the air bubbles does not move) I can see some of the air comes into the pump.

When I turn off the system and I open the air to release it from the filter all the water from the pump drain back to the pool , Im not sure if thats normal

The pump prime good , never lost prime and its being tested several times and I havent experience any issues with it (priming)
I can see some air bubblles coming out of my jets (pool returns only) but majority are when I Start the pump, then I can see some air at the returns here and there but not as bad as the pump starts

Im not sure if that what cause the filter pressure to be high , in addition to the way everything is plumbed and the way how this stupid builder built the plumbing around the pool.

As I said , with the pool I have no problem , its clean good , the returns working very strong , No stains on plaster , chemicals are good , turnovers are good , The only problem I have is my jets doesn't get enough flow from the spa See the draw I did for the spa plumbing after the spa wall
The spa was built by another contractor who was not part of the plumbing after the spa wall , he just helped me with the spa and plumbing inside the wall.

You will see how many turns the previous builder did for the spa.

I will try to get you the full drawing so you can see
I will update in few with new drawing

 

[Ti3155]

It looks to be a standard Intelliflo.

Picture showed up. It looks to be a standard Intelliflo.

Here is the issue. The spa mode, spillover and pools modes all have about the same filter pressure and it is very high. So there is some plumbing in common that is causing excess head loss on the RETURN side. Could be the filter or heater.

But even if you fix the spa lines, this head loss is going to prevent enough flow for the jets. Even in pool mode, there is only 55 GPM. Even for pools with 1.5" plumbing, the flow rate should be much higher than that (75 GPM). Something is not working properly.

So let me understand something ,

We look at the pump - 29GPM for the spa - this is the GPM it is taking from the spa main drain ? or this is calculate on the return line ?
Same with the pool ?
Just so I understand what those numbers are.

 

[Ti3155]

So it could be on the return lines somewhere on the pad ?

 

[mas985]

Attached plumbing for the spa
This is the all I can get

Nothing looks out of the ordinary in those pictures

Now , when I look inside the pump I can see some (not alot) air bubbles sitting at the top of the pump , but when I look inside the pump (not just at the top where the air bubbles does not move) I can see some of the air comes into the pump.

That means there is still an air leak somewhere.

When I turn off the system and I open the air to release it from the filter all the water from the pump drain back to the pool , Im not sure if thats normal

That is normal.

The pump prime good , never lost prime and its being tested several times and I havent experience any issues with it (priming)
I can see some air bubblles coming out of my jets (pool returns only) but majority are when I Start the pump, then I can see some air at the returns here and there but not as bad as the pump starts

After the pump has been off for a while, is there air in the pump basket?

As I said , with the pool I have no problem , its clean good , the returns working very strong , No stains on plaster , chemicals are good , turnovers are good , The only problem I have is my jets doesn't get enough flow from the spa See the draw I did for the spa plumbing after the spa wall
The spa was built by another contractor who was not part of the plumbing after the spa wall , he just helped me with the spa and plumbing inside the wall.

Yes but the high filter pressure for both the pool and spa is also a symptom of an issue.

The spa suction line is definitely a problem. But so is the filter pressure. It should not be that high.

I don't remember if I asked this before but what is the model# for the heater? Is it a heat pump or natural gas?

Do you have a model# for the sand filter as well?

 

[mas985]

So let me understand something ,

We look at the pump - 29GPM for the spa - this is the GPM it is taking from the spa main drain ? or this is calculate on the return line ?
Same with the pool ?
Just so I understand what those numbers are.

The GPM the pump shows is a calculated value based upon the RPM setting and the watts. These two values are sufficient to estimate the flow rate through the pump. It isn't 100% accurate but it is close enough.

 

[Ti3155]

So its not like the pump have a sensor to know exactly what is the flow rate ?
Confusing lol , check this out

 

[Ti3155]

Nothing looks out of the ordinary in those pictures


That means there is still an air leak somewhere.


That is normal.


After the pump has been off for a while, is there air in the pump basket?


Yes but the high filter pressure for both the pool and spa is also a symptom of an issue.

The spa suction line is definitely a problem. But so is the filter pressure. It should not be that high.

I don't remember if I asked this before but what is the model# for the heater? Is it a heat pump or natural gas?

Do you have a model# for the sand filter as well?

Yes!
Heater is Natural gas pentair 250BTU
The filter is TA60 I think its max 60gpm

Should I not use it on 30 psi ? it will damage the filter and pump ?
I can go with 3150 @ 20-24psi

After the pump has been off for a while, is there air in the pump basket?
Very little on the top!
Maybe 2 or 3 air bubbles stuck on top - apx 1.5-2" each one
thats why I set my prime as 3450/10min every morning , and seems like there are less air bubbles in it
but when its start back to 2300 all day I can defiantly see more air movement inside the pump , not just at the top , once I increase the speed I can see less air.