Newb OB with BYOP in Buckeye AZ - pebble and tile touch up suggestions

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Just for your foot notes, during excavation, checking for the finish depth on the reef step @ 19”-20” from dirt to top of form. This will let you adjust the for the proper water depth during Shotcrete and plaster to obtain the depth you desire.

 

[Dirk]

I just posted the message below in response to another TFP’ers questions in another thread about my waterfall and fire features. I also had similar questions about how noisy the waterfall scuppers are so I created a short video at different speeds. I thought I’d like to have the same info in my thread.

Fire bowls were stupid expensive, mine were $2k each about 6 months ago (I got a deal on sale, at the time list price was just under $3k), I just checked on the same ones and I almost choked, the same ones are now almost $5k each, gas line adds another big cost (depending on your run could add approximately $4k). At today’s prices I couldn’t do it for about $15k, that is just insane.

I’m sitting out tonight and just turned the fire bowls and waterfall on. So far we have the fire bowls going a few times a month, sometimes more often. This was even before the pool was filled. They just add some very nice ambience, especially with the waterfall. It has a very resort-ish feel. I just created and posted a 2 minute video on my YouTube channel if you want to hear the waterfall at various pump speeds. We usually have the pump running at 800 or 1,000 rpm’s.

We just filled the pool almost a month ago so not sure how often we will have the features running. Still very new to us and very . Pool is drinking large amounts of acid daily right now given new plaster and bicarbonate startup with high TA, so not sure how much the waterfall contributes to pH. If you think you’ll use it, I would do it. It really is now or never.

Feature wall is 15’ long and 18” high, columns are 30”x30”x24” high, fire bowls are 24” square and they sit about 10” high.

Baja water depth is just over 10” at max autoleveler height. Our design called for 12” at nominal height, but somehow I missed the depth was off, probably at excavation. Not a biggie

Those are some crazy numbers, but they can be justified like this. Those types of ambient effects, which can be run and enjoyed year-round, regardless of pool water temp and "swimmability," significantly increase the usability and enjoyment of your backyard oasis. And so, its value. You can probably only get in your pool for six months a year, give or take, but you can enjoy your features for all twelve. So...

Over ten years:

If your pool was $100K and "goes dark" for half the year, you'll pay $10K a year or $1,666 for each useful month.
But if you add the fire-bowls (so $115K for the pool), and can enjoy the pool all year, you'll pay $11,500 a year but only $958 per useful month!

The fire-bowls save you $708 a month, and will pay for themselves in 1.75 years (21 months).

So really they're making you money. Minus, you know, my 10% finder's fee each month (for finding the $708 per month). That's still quite a bargain! No checks please, I take VISA and American Express.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Just for your foot notes, during excavation, checking for the finish depth on the reef step @ 19”-20” from dirt to top of form. This will let you adjust the for the proper water depth during Shotcrete and plaster to obtain the depth you desire.

That is a great suggestion. Ask excavation to be an extra 1 to 2” deep to make sure depth is what you want, an inch or so of shotcrete is rounding error on the whole job.

Those are some crazy numbers, but they can be justified like this. Those types of ambient effects, which can be run and enjoyed year-round, regardless of pool water temp and "swimmability," significantly increase the usability and enjoyment of your backyard oasis. And so, its value. You can probably only get in your pool for six months a year, give or take, but you can enjoy your features for all twelve. So...

Over ten years:

If your pool was $100K and "goes dark" for half the year, you'll pay $10K a year or $1,666 for each useful month.
But if you add the fire-bowls (so $115K for the pool), and can enjoy the pool all year, you'll pay $11,500 a year but only $958 per useful month!

The fire-bowls save you $708 a month, and will pay for themselves in 1.75 years (21 months).

So really they're making you money. Minus, you know, my 10% finder's fee each month (for finding the $708 per month). That's still quite a bargain! No checks please, I take VISA and American Express.

Now that is creative accounting! You didn’t happen to work for Arthur Anderson on the Enron account did you?

 

[Schwimmbad]

I just ran a test for salt following the directions below. Want to figure out how much salt I need to put in the pool.

Salt Test

The Salt Test is used to determine the concentration of sodium chloride (salt) in pool … Read more…

www.troublefreepool.com

I didn’t get what I thought would be a salmon (brick color). To me the last picture is brown, or is that the salmon (brick) color. The results were the same both times. How do I interpret this?

After 1 drop of R-0718 (put in one drop of R-0630 previously)

After 2nd drop of R-0718

After 3rd drop of R-0718

 

[bdavis466]

That’s the color. The salt test is probably the most definite color change of all of them.

Figure 600 ppm into your salt requirement. It’s much better to undershoot your salt requirement since you can always just add more.

Acid contains very high amounts of chloride and that’s the reason for the number you got. Pretty much every chemical you add to your pool contains some amount of salt (chloride).

A gallon of full strength acid is the chloride equivalent of adding almost 5 pounds of salt and will raise the salt level in your 15,400 gallon pool by 40 ppm.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Thanks @bdavis466. Even when adding a couple additional drops after the 3rd it didn’t seem to change color so I thought it jumped from the milky color right to brown. Helps to have an idea of the end state color, now I do!

So looking at my IC40 manual it says 3600 to 4500 ppm with 3600 being ideal. I read in the SWG guide to try to be 200 to 400 above the target. I’ll go with 300 and enter 3900 in pool math with a 600 starting point and it says to add 425 lbs of salt. Sound about right?

By the way, I’m on day 28 and my latest test results are:
FC 5.5
PH 8.1 (added acid to drop to 7.5)
TA 100
CH 350
CYA 30
Salt 600
How does this look?

I’m hoping to get the SWG up and running later this week. The intellichlor manual says to wait at least 1 month. Is there much of a benefit to waiting longer or am I good to start at day 30?

 

[ajw22]

I read in the SWG guide to try to be 200 to 400 above the target. I’ll go with 300 and enter 3900 in pool math with a 600 starting point and it says to add 425 lbs of salt. Sound about right?

NO target 3200 - 3600 salt range for the IntelliChlor.

What SWG guide did you read to be 400 over target?

I’m hoping to get the SWG up and running later this week. The intellichlor manual says to wait at least 1 month. Is there much of a benefit to waiting longer or am I good to start at day 30?

No.

Plaster Installation and Maintenance - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

When Should Salt be Added? In our industry, there seems to be some consensus to wait 30 days before adding salt to new plaster pools, yet some say it is okay to add salt within a couple of days of filling the pool. Who is right? This thread describes why it appears that the recommendation to wait 30 days before adding any salt is appropriate for most plaster pools, including quartz and pebble pools.

When Should Salt be Added?

In our industry, there seems to be some consensus to wait 30 days before adding salt to new plaster pools, yet some say it is okay to add salt within a couple of days of filling the pool. So who is right? To answer that question, let’s first take a look first at what happens in the initial...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[bdavis466]

No reason to wait. The numbers look good.

I think 3200 ppm is a better starting point. As you’ve already seen, your salt level will only go up.

(Edit) Whoops…looks like Allen beat me

 

[Schwimmbad]

Thank you both!!!

What SWG guide did you read to be 400 over target?

Water Balance for SWGs

Saltwater pools are becoming more and more popular. We discuss How salt generators work and water balance tips for SWGs to run them.

www.troublefreepool.com

“First step is to adjust salt to the manufacturer’s recommended range (usually around 3000-3200 ppm but some models do need a higher level. Check your manual.) Starting out slightly higher (200-400 ppm) than the ideal level is recommended, since the salt level will tend to fall over time.”

 

[ajw22]

Water Balance for SWGs

Saltwater pools are becoming more and more popular. We discuss How salt generators work and water balance tips for SWGs to run them.

www.troublefreepool.com

“First step is to adjust salt to the manufacturer’s recommended range (usually around 3000-3200 ppm but some models do need a higher level. Check your manual.) Starting out slightly higher (200-400 ppm) than the ideal level is recommended, since the salt level will tend to fall over time.”

That is old bad advice. I will work on getting it changed.

 

[bdavis466]

Your salt level will rise throughout the summer and will probably be at the higher end of the range by the end of it. Depending on how much rain you get, it should fall through the winter and might need a bag of salt at the start of the next season.

Pentair’s use of “ideal “is a poor choice of words since the actual salt level doesn’t impact the SWG as long as it’s within the operating range. The 3600 number is more an acceptable middle ground to provide enough buffer in either direction to deal with the variables throughout the year.

The SWG uses conductivity to measure the salt level and that measurement is temperature dependent. Warmer water usually results in a higher salt reading and vice versa.

 

[Schwimmbad]

@bdavis466 your starting spot seems like a good place to begin.

Given the tolerance of the SWG:
-> 3,200 +/-500 is 2,700 to 3,700. If my testing is off or at the edge of the testing tolerance of 200, no biggie, drop in another bag.

Copied from the IC40 manual below:

 

[proavia]

I'd shoot for 3000-3200 ppm salt and see if the SWG is happy to operate with that level.
In the desert southwest, our salt level will tend to climb with acid additions. Our fill water also has a bit of salt in it. And chances of getting a lot of rain to help dilute the pool water are usually low.

 

[Dirk]

Even when adding a couple additional drops after the 3rd it didn’t seem to change color so I thought it jumped from the milky color right to brown.

Salt test is my favorite. No ambiguity or guess work. It's the only Taylor titration test where you don't continue to add drops to develop a deeper color. The change is instant, and when it first permanently changes, you're done. You don't add or count any extra drops, even it it does get darker by doing so.

And it gives you a handy warning as you're approaching the end result. It might flash that brown color for an instant, and then it goes back to milky color. You keep going. It might do that a few more times. Then it'll go brown and stay brown. You stop there and you're done.

 

[Newdude]

Anecdotal, but I've had 3 IC60s and they all worked great down to 2800. They still worked with the low salt warning down to 2600.

We can all start to taste the salt around 3k so I target 3200 with lots of rain that lowers it. By you I'd probably target 3k with no rain. The salt taste isn't like Cambells chicken noodle soup or anything it's just a whiff of it. Lol. Everyone has a different threshold.

 

[proavia]

We can all start to taste the salt around 3k so I target 3200 with lots of rain that lowers it. By you I'd probably target 3k with no rain. The salt taste isn't like Cambells chicken noodle soup or anything it's just a whiff of it. Lol. Everyone has a different threshold.

And the slight salty taste (to some) reminds you that you aren't supposed to be drinking the pool water anyway.

 

[Schwimmbad]

I'd shoot for 3000-3200 ppm salt and see if the SWG is happy to operate with that level.
In the desert southwest, our salt level will tend to climb with acid additions. Our fill water also has a bit of salt in it. And chances of getting a lot of rain to help dilute the pool water are usually low.

Given all the feedback I’ll start low, around 3k and add salt if needed until the SWG is . I haven’t tested fill water for salt but given your comment I’ll give that a go and see what I have.

Salt test is my favorite. No ambiguity or guess work. It's the only Taylor titration test where you don't continue to add drops to develop a deeper color. The change is instant, and when it first permanently changes, you're done. You don't add or count any extra drops, even it it does get darker by doing so.

And it gives you a handy warning as you're approaching the end result. It might flash that brown color for an instant, and then it goes back to milky color. You keep going. It might do that a few more times. Then it'll go brown and stay brown. You stop there and you're done.

Now that I know what to expect, I completely agree! No guess work on this one, when you get to the end point, BAM, it slaps you in the face!

Anecdotal, but I've had 3 IC60s and they all worked great down to 2800. They still worked with the low salt warning down to 2600.

We can all start to taste the salt around 3k so I target 3200 with lots of rain that lowers it. By you I'd probably target 3k with no rain. The salt taste isn't like Cambells chicken noodle soup or anything it's just a whiff of it. Lol. Everyone has a different threshold.

Managing pool chemistry by TFP consensus, and everyone is in the 3k to 3.2k range, if that isn’t a solid place to be nothing is!

And the slight salty taste (to some) reminds you that you aren't supposed to be drinking the pool water anyway.

Does that work for the dog also?

Really appreciate all the comments.

Now after all that here is what I have on the to-do list (along with my usual smattering of questions) to get the SWG doin’ it’s thang. How does this look? As always, I greatly value any feedback.
For reference, my last set of tests is:
FC 5.5
PH 7.6
TA 100
CH 350
CYA 30
Salt 600

1. Get CYA up, but I’m not really sure what to shoot for, I’ve read anything from 50 to 90. I was thinking 70 from this page. Given my chemistry posted above does that sound like a good place to start CYA?
2. Install the SWG but keep turned off.
3. Install water temp probe.
4. From what I’ve read my TA is a little high but since I’ll be continuing to add acid can I just leave it at 100 knowing it will come down? With my fill water being at a TA of 110 is that something I should take into account and try to get TA lower than the upper end of the range of 90?
5. Turn Snoopy (Evo 614iQ) loose to do a complete cleaning
6. Add 2/3 of salt calculated to get to 3,000, brush around, keep pump running 24 hrs (ok to keep at low rpms, like 1,000?), wait a day, retest and add additional as needed. Is it ok to dump on Baja ledge and brush around from there or should I dump in deep end, all around the pool, or something else?
7. Run OCLT and confirm it passes.
8. Run complete set of tests and adjust as needed for target FC at 5, PH at 7.6. Turn on SWG and confirm it registers salt.
9. Set SWG for 40% and determine min rpms to generate, add 200 rpms to set floor for SWG.
10. Anything else I missed? Maybe celebrate with a nice Opus X Lost City cigar and glass of neat angels envy rye whiskey ?

 

[proavia]

Does that work for the dog also

When we still had our Dachshunds, one of them would lick the water once and then stop. Although he would take several licks of my margarita each time he ran by to jump back on his raft (yeah, you read that right - HIS raft).

 

[Dirk]

1. End CYA at 70, but like you're adding salt, shoot for low and creep your way up to it, giving a few days between dosing. If you're due for a filter cleaning, do that first. You don't want to clean the filter for a few weeks after adding solid CYA to the skimmer in a sock. (DON'T USE LIQUID CYA!)
2. Keep SWG off until salt test result is stable for at least 24 hrs.
3. Yes, install water temp probe.
4. Leave TA alone. Mine was very high, and I battled it to no avail. My acid additions brought it down eventually and it has been stable since.
5. Turn Snoopy (Evo 614iQ) loose.
6. I expressed salt all over the pool once. What a chore that was! I now pour it all into as small a pile as possible in the shallow end, and sweep it onto itself, keeping the pile as small as possible. Repeat until gone.
7. Yes, run OCLT and confirm it passes.
8. Yes, run complete set of tests and adjust as needed for targets as per TFP guidelines. Some of us prefer to run our FC a little high, to keep from ever getting near our minimum. I run mine at 7 with a 70CYA.
   Yes, turn on SWG and confirm it registers salt a day or two after you added the last of the salt (NOT before).
9. Yes, set SWG for 40% and determine min rpms to generate, add 200 rpms to set floor for SWG. Test periodically. Use liquid chlorine to reestablish your target if necessary. Don't try to reestablish your target by goosing the SWG for a while. You'll never get off of the roller coaster. Test, bump with LC, adjust SWG up a bit. Repeat until a few tests result in a stable FC. Expect to repeat that a few times as it warms up.
10. Yes, definitely celebrate with a nice Opus X Lost City cigar and glass of neat angels envy rye whiskey !

Are you clear on how to add CYA? I once burned my brand new pebble finish doing it wrong! (Using liquid, which is why I shout about not using liquid!!!)

 

[Newdude]

Get CYA up, but I’m not really sure what to shoot for, I’ve read anything from 50 to 90.

Remember we all have varying UV demand. You have among the highest in the world and may find you need more help keeping FC.

Start at 70 and road test it. It won't be bad yet anyway until it's triple digits. When the FC loss becomes 5+ a day, add 10 CYA, then road test that.

Run OCLT and confirm it passes

Remember this is *before* adding cya.