Newb OB with BYOP in Buckeye AZ - Short vacation pH and FC question

[Schwimmbad]

1. End CYA at 70, but like you're adding salt, shoot for low and creep your way up to it, giving a few days between dosing. If you're due for a filter cleaning, do that first. You don't want to clean the filter for a few weeks after adding solid CYA to the skimmer in a sock. (DON'T USE LIQUID CYA!)
2. Keep SWG off until salt test result is stable for at least 24 hrs.
3. Yes, install water temp probe.
4. Leave TA alone. Mine was very high, and I battled it to no avail. My acid additions brought it down eventually and it has been stable since.
5. Turn Snoopy (Evo 614iQ) loose.
6. I expressed salt all over the pool once. What a chore that was! I now pour it all into as small a pile as possible in the shallow end, and sweep it onto itself, keeping the pile as small as possible. Repeat until gone.
7. Yes, run OCLT and confirm it passes.
8. Yes, run complete set of tests and adjust as needed for targets as per TFP guidelines. Some of us prefer to run our FC a little high, to keep from ever getting near our minimum. I run mine at 7 with a 70CYA.
   Yes, turn on SWG and confirm it registers salt a day or two after you added the last of the salt (NOT before).
9. Yes, set SWG for 40% and determine min rpms to generate, add 200 rpms to set floor for SWG. Test periodically. Use liquid chlorine to reestablish your target if necessary. Don't try to reestablish your target by goosing the SWG for a while. You'll never get off of the roller coaster. Test, bump with LC, adjust SWG up a bit. Repeat until a few tests result in a stable FC. Expect to repeat that a few times as it warms up.
10. Yes, definitely celebrate with a nice Opus X Lost City cigar and glass of neat angels envy rye whiskey !

Are you clear on how to add CYA? I once burned my brand new pebble finish doing it wrong! (Using liquid, which is why I shout about not using liquid!!!)

I added CYA by putting in knee high, suspending it in front of a return. After it got mushy I squeezed it out and brushed in the area. It worked very well.

Would there be any concerns dumping the salt on our Baja ledge in front of the return and brushing it all around on the ledge as it dissolves? I would start with one bag at a time and will add six bags at first pass.

Thanks for the comments about using some liquid to help as I work to stabilize FC with the SWG. I don’t remember reading that anywhere.

Remember we all have varying UV demand. You have among the highest in the world and may find you need more help keeping FC.

Start at 70 and road test it. It won't be bad yet anyway until it's triple digits. When the FC loss becomes 5+ a day, add 10 CYA.

Remember this is *before* adding cya.

Thanks for the comment about doing the OCLT before adding CYA, doing the OCLT tonight.

 

[Dirk]

I added CYA by putting in knee high, suspending it in front of a return. After it got mushy I squeezed it out and brushed in the area. It worked very well.

If that works for you, that's great. It has the added advantage of expressing the CYA directly into the pool, instead of having it get trapped in the filter first. The only warning is to make sure that method doesn't fail. If you dropped the sock (I'm assuming you had solid CYA in a sock), and it spilled out, or the sock had a hole in it, and the CYA gets to the bottom, and sits there for more than a few seconds, you run the risk of staining (burning) your plaster/pebble finish. My stain is still there, six years later. I put a sock in the skimmer and don't have to worry about it.

Would there be any concerns dumping the salt on our Baja ledge in front of the return and brushing it all around on the ledge as it dissolves? I would start with one bag at a time and will add six bags at first pass.

Solid plan. Keep the salt away from the edge, so you don't have to go chasing runaways. The salt should dissolve in just minutes, so you really don't run any risk of staining your finish. I'm not sure that's even possible with salt. Maybe if you left it there for a week. But each bag will vanish in less than 15 minutes. If the ledge has a return, I'm sure you'll get enough circulation for mixing it into the rest of the pool.

Did anyone mention? When I'm adjusting salt or CYA, I let the pump run 24 hours straight, for a couple of days or three. That might be overkill, but it's sure-fire.

Thanks for the comments about using some liquid to help as I work to stabilize FC with the SWG. I don’t remember reading that anywhere.

It's my own MO. I'm not sure how others do it. I left out: if you overshoot the FC, then just let it ride back down to your target. If it stays high, then turn down your SWG, maybe 5% at a time. If it then drops below your target, then you resume the LC bumping. You'll find your own MO. I was just making sure you don't try to adjust your target with the SWG, that just takes longer.

Think of it this way: an SWG is not for raising your FC, it doesn't have the "horsepower" for that. It merely maintains your target once you get it there. Like those fancy V8s that disengage cylinders at highway speeds. You need all eight to get to 65MPH (the LC), but once there, you can maintain 65 with just four cylinders (the SWG). If you want to pass at 80MPH, you'll engage all eight again (more LC), then throttle back on four (just the SWG) and coast back down to 65.

 

[Dirk]

Thanks for the comment about doing the OCLT before adding CYA, doing the OCLT tonight.

Just to round out that advice... The CYA doesn't really affect the OCLT, the test itself. But if you don't pass the OCLT, and have to go back to SLAMing your pool to get rid of algae, that extra CYA will necessitate a much higher FC level for SLAMing, making the process more trouble and a lot more expensive (more chlorine). You only add CYA after you're sure the algae is gone (and that means passing all three SLAM-is-done criteria).

 

[Newdude]

You only add CYA after you're sure the algae is gone (and that means passing all three SLAM-is-done criteria).

Exactly. The 'well I shouldn't have algae' thought has bit many people. Find out for a fact first.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Exactly. The 'well I shouldn't have algae' thought has bit many people. Find out for a fact first.

Done, OCLT passed, no drop in FC. I bumped FC up to 7 after the sun went down and it came in at 7 this morning.

Used pool math with a target of 70 CYA, it gave me 82oz. Put 2/3rds or 54oz in a knee high, tied a knot in it above the granules, tied it to a rake handle, taped the hose to the handle, put a paver stone on the brick, and let it hang in front of a return.

The only warning is to make sure that method doesn't fail. If you dropped the sock (I'm assuming you had solid CYA in a sock), and it spilled out, or the sock had a hole in it, and the CYA gets to the bottom, and sits there for more than a few seconds, you run the risk of staining (burning) your plaster/pebble finish.

Your warning about it staining plaster made me a little more cautious. Thanks for that. Having an obvious stain that would be there forever as a reminder of my carelessness would annoy me to no end!

Picture for those curious what it looks like.

Did anyone mention? When I'm adjusting salt or CYA, I let the pump run 24 hours straight, for a couple of days or three. That might be overkill, but it's sure-fire.

Yep. I’ve been letting the pump run 24x7 at 1,000 rpm’s since I got through the bicarb startup. I’ll turn it up to about 2,000 rpms when I give the knee high the big squeeze and let it run at higher rpms for a couple hours and drop it back down to 1,000 rpms. I’ll do the same for salt. After I get the SWG up and running and things stabilized I’ll figure out what I want to do with pump runtime.

Just to round out that advice... The CYA doesn't really affect the OCLT, the test itself. But if you don't pass the OCLT, and have to go back to SLAMing your pool to get rid of algae, that extra CYA will necessitate a much higher FC level for SLAMing, making the process more trouble and a lot more expensive (more chlorine). You only add CYA after you're sure the algae is gone (and that means passing all three SLAM-is-done criteria).

That really helps with understanding the reasoning, thanks

 

[Newdude]

Your warning about it staining plaster made me a little more cautious. Thanks for that. Having an obvious stain that would be there forever as a reminder of my carelessness would annoy me to no end!

Somebody called theirs their pools drunken tattoo last year and I thought that was beautiful. Lol.

Avoid drunken tattoos.

 

[Dirk]

Having an obvious stain that would be there forever as a reminder of my carelessness would annoy me to no end!

Way to rub salt in the wound!

I share because I care! And I, too, let my tattoo remind me to be careful, and to always handle pool chemicals, of any kind, as the dangerous materials they can be, to my pool, and to me and my family. Not only adding it to the pool, but also carrying it across my deck (yep, stained that too, with muriatic), and handling it with my hands and protecting my eyes and lungs when necessary.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Hey, at least I didn’t twist the knife first!

Sorry about that! Not intended! Unfortunately no better lasting lesson than the school of hard knocks! And in your case unfortunately you have the visual reminders! (Ok, that’s too many exclamation points!!!)

That’s one of the myriad of benefits of TFP, you get the opportunity to learn from others who learned the hard way.

I’ve read about so many acid mishaps, that’s what got me thinking of the acid automation solutions. I figure with me it’s not a matter of if but when.

 

[Newdude]

That’s one of the myriad of benefits of TFP, you get the opportunity to learn from others who learned the hard way.

I could write a book on my screwups alone.

If they save one person, it was worth it to tell them.

 

[Dirk]

I could write a book on my screwups alone.

Uh, been there, done that. Just have a look at my collection of threads! Might even be a couple volumes worth!

 

[Schwimmbad]

I could write a book on my screwups alone.

If they save one person, it was worth it to tell them.

Uh, been there, done that. Just have a look at my collection of threads! Might even be a couple volumes worth!

That sounds like a sticky thread that belongs somewhere. We all have them so that would continue to grow. Just think, I have many years of screwups to look forward to and could contribute some of my own.

Anyway, on my journey to firing up the SWG I just tested my CYA. I struggled to find the endpoint with that ️. I redid it multiple times and even had my wife take a look. We seemed to settle on 80 (but it could be up to 90). I only waited a day after additions, maybe I should have been more patient. So I overshot a bit, but it’s still within the range. How long might I expect it to take for CYA to drop or how often should I test it?

I’m now on to adding salt. I retested salt and got 600 again, targeting 3,000 and with pool math it said 309 lbs, taking two thirds gave me 204lbs, so in goes 5 bags and we’ll test salt again tomorrow.

 

[ajw22]

How long might I expect it to take for CYA to drop or how often should I test it?

Don't worry about it. +/- 10 ppm is normal testing error variance.

You are worrying about precision's in water chemistry that is unattainable and unnecessary. Just work within ranges not specific values.

 

[Schwimmbad]

lol, thanks @ajw22, I had a buddy that always talking about being precisely imprecise. That feels like what I keep doing. Reminders like yours help keep me in check!

 

[Schwimmbad]

I have not yet felt comfortable with determining the pH with the TF comparator block.

So (after doing a lot of reading on TFP about digital testers) I decided to get a digital pH tester to make sure I am reading the comparator correctly. I bought the Apera PH60 and calibrated it with the 3 test solutions.

I tested cold tap water with the apera meter and got 7.81. I then used the same water with the TF comparator and used 4 drops (as I had in the past) of R-0014 and it didn’t seem to match 7.8. So I added one more drop (test instructions say to use 5) and it didn’t help syncing up with the test block. I happened to have a new Taylor comparator test block and did a side by side. The color matching for me worked much better on the Taylor comparator block (left block in picture below). What do you think?

While both test blocks are stated to work with the R-0014 reagent, when looking side by side the colors are different between the two test blocks. In my view the colors seemed a little washed out on the TF block. It also seemed like the test solution was also a little lighter on the TF block. At least for me the Taylor one gets closer to a match than the TF one, especially when covering the section above and below 7.8 with my fingers.

Next was a test of my pool water.

Taylor Comparator
Since I felt the Taylor block is a better color match, I looked at that first and determined my pool pH is 7.7. It seemed very close to 7.8 but I thought it had a touch more orange tint to it.


TF Comparator
I than used the TF block and I came up with a pH of 7.9. It didn’t seem to match 7.8 and seemed a little more purplish.


Side by side (Taylor on left, TF on right)


Using the Apera meter I got 7.77.


After all that, what did I learn?

1. For me I’ll be using the Taylor comparator test block. It just seemed to match the color better. As I continue to learn and play around with the meter from time to time things could change, who knows.
2. My newb results were separated by 0.2 pH between the two test blocks and the actual pH was pretty close to the center between the two.

How much does this matter? Experienced folks on here can chime in, but I expect being off by ~0.1 pH probably doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.

When you are within the 6.8 to 8.2 limits of the test block at least you have a lower and upper color bounds. When you are outside those ranges, like I probably was early on, it’s a gray area. I’ll use the meter a number of times and maybe I’ll have a time when I accidentally end up with a pH above 8.2 so I can run through the same test.

As @ajw22 said a few posts earlier

You are worrying about precision's in water chemistry that is unattainable and unnecessary. Just work within ranges not specific values.

I fully acknowledge I was doing exactly what @ajw22 said was unnecessary, it’s a character flaw! While it may seem like I just wasted $80, at least now I’ll feel more comfortable with my testing and there is a little peace of mind that comes with that.

As stated in various other threads using the pH meter comes with its own set of things to be dealt with. It has to be stored properly, should be calibrated periodically (this one says if not used in >1 month), and the calibration solutions are good for one year and have only so many calibrations they can perform. You may find this one on eBay when the calibration solution has expired!

 

[Newdude]

I expect being off by ~0.1 pH probably doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.

Exactly. It's way close enough.

 

[Dirk]

I have not yet felt comfortable with determining the pH with the TF comparator block.

So (after doing a lot of reading on TFP about digital testers) I decided to get a digital pH tester to make sure I am reading the comparator correctly. I bought the Apera PH60 and calibrated it with the 3 test solutions.

I tested cold tap water with the apera meter and got 7.81. I then used the same water with the TF comparator and used 4 drops (as I had in the past) of R-0014 and it didn’t seem to match 7.8. So I added one more drop (test instructions say to use 5) and it didn’t help syncing up with the test block. I happened to have a new Taylor comparator test block and did a side by side. The color matching for me worked much better on the Taylor comparator block (left block in picture below). What do you think?
View attachment 562703
While both test blocks are stated to work with the R-0014 reagent, when looking side by side the colors are different between the two test blocks. In my view the colors seemed a little washed out on the TF block. It also seemed like the test solution was also a little lighter on the TF block. At least for me the Taylor one gets closer to a match than the TF one, especially when covering the section above and below 7.8 with my fingers.

Next was a test of my pool water.

Taylor Comparator
Since I felt the Taylor block is a better color match, I looked at that first and determined my pool pH is 7.7. It seemed very close to 7.8 but I thought it had a touch more orange tint to it.
View attachment 562712

TF Comparator
I than used the TF block and I came up with a pH of 7.9. It didn’t seem to match 7.8 and seemed a little more purplish.
View attachment 562713

Side by side (Taylor on left, TF on right)
View attachment 562714

Using the Apera meter I got 7.77.
View attachment 562715

After all that, what did I learn?

1. For me I’ll be using the Taylor comparator test block. It just seemed to match the color better. As I continue to learn and play around with the meter from time to time things could change, who knows.
2. My newb results were separated by 0.2 pH between the two test blocks and the actual pH was pretty close to the center between the two.

How much does this matter? Experienced folks on here can chime in, but I expect being off by ~0.1 pH probably doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.

When you are within the 6.8 to 8.2 limits of the test block at least you have a lower and upper color bounds. When you are outside those ranges, like I probably was early on, it’s a gray area. I’ll use the meter a number of times and maybe I’ll have a time when I accidentally end up with a pH above 8.2 so I can run through the same test.

As @ajw22 said a few posts earlier

I fully acknowledge I was doing exactly what @ajw22 said was unnecessary, it’s a character flaw! While it may seem like I just wasted $80, at least now I’ll feel more comfortable with my testing and there is a little peace of mind that comes with that.

As stated in various other threads using the pH meter comes with its own set of things to be dealt with. It has to be stored properly, should be calibrated periodically (this one says if not used in >1 month), and the calibration solutions are good for one year and have only so many calibrations they can perform. You may find this one on eBay when the calibration solution has expired!

That's quite a comparison! Thanks.

This is what works for me. I don't try to match the color. I usually can't. And you're discovering why. The color of the liquid sample rarely, if ever, matches the colors on the vial. And to make things worse, the tints of the two colors rarely match either. One color is always lighter or darker than the other. So I compare hue. Color and tint and hue are terms I use for work, but you don't even have to know what those each mean to try this. But for reference: using four drops instead of five alters the tint, not the hue. It's slightly easier to judge hue when the tint matches. I use four drops, for that reason.

The color swatches range from yellow to magenta. But don't look at all the swatches at once, and try to figure out which is closest. Instead, pick just one swatch and compare it to the test sample. And then ask: is the sample more magenta than the swatch, or more yellow? If you can't answer that question, then that's the match. But say it's more magenta. You would then move to the next swatch up and repeat the question, until you can't answer it. And then that's the match. If more yellow, then move down the swatches.

Remember, ignore the tint (lighter or darker), just focus on "more magenta" or "more yellow." If the sample is more magenta than the swatch, but more yellow than the swatch above it, then your pH is a value in between. My comporator is finer than yours. It graduates in pH values of 0.2, not 0.3 and 0.4 like yours does. I can read pH to within 0.05, using the method I described, but even within 0.1 is not really necessary. Close enough is close enough.

The other thing I do is control the lighting. I don't test outdoors (that's crazy talk, IMO). I test in a windowless room under very even and very neutral LED light (not too orange, not too blue). I hold the comparator, in one hand, a few inches below a strip of LED lights (under-counter lights), and a white card in the other hand. I hold the white card behind the comparator and tilt it just so, so the light from the LEDs bounces off the card and through the comparator. That MO (especially without the variables that sun and clouds produce) creates a very repeatable and consistent testing environment.

That's how I do, anyway...

PS. Good luck with the pH meter. I would have tried to talk you out of that. But maybe you'll find it useful. And I've never used one, but now wouldn't. I have pH down now, and it's so fast and easy (and repeatable), that I wouldn't want to deal with a gizmo that requires batteries and callibration. The accuracy necessary for pool pH just doesn't justify the bother (to me).

 

[ajw22]

I have not yet felt comfortable with determining the pH with the TF comparator block.

So (after doing a lot of reading on TFP about digital testers) I decided to get a digital pH tester to make sure I am reading the comparator correctly. I bought the Apera PH60 and calibrated it with the 3 test solutions.

I tested cold tap water with the apera meter and got 7.81. I then used the same water with the TF comparator and used 4 drops (as I had in the past) of R-0014 and it didn’t seem to match 7.8. So I added one more drop (test instructions say to use 5) and it didn’t help syncing up with the test block. I happened to have a new Taylor comparator test block and did a side by side. The color matching for me worked much better on the Taylor comparator block (left block in picture below). What do you think?
View attachment 562703
While both test blocks are stated to work with the R-0014 reagent, when looking side by side the colors are different between the two test blocks. In my view the colors seemed a little washed out on the TF block. It also seemed like the test solution was also a little lighter on the TF block. At least for me the Taylor one gets closer to a match than the TF one, especially when covering the section above and below 7.8 with my fingers.

Next was a test of my pool water.

Taylor Comparator
Since I felt the Taylor block is a better color match, I looked at that first and determined my pool pH is 7.7. It seemed very close to 7.8 but I thought it had a touch more orange tint to it.
View attachment 562712

TF Comparator
I than used the TF block and I came up with a pH of 7.9. It didn’t seem to match 7.8 and seemed a little more purplish.
View attachment 562713

Side by side (Taylor on left, TF on right)
View attachment 562714

Using the Apera meter I got 7.77.
View attachment 562715

After all that, what did I learn?

1. For me I’ll be using the Taylor comparator test block. It just seemed to match the color better. As I continue to learn and play around with the meter from time to time things could change, who knows.
2. My newb results were separated by 0.2 pH between the two test blocks and the actual pH was pretty close to the center between the two.

How much does this matter? Experienced folks on here can chime in, but I expect being off by ~0.1 pH probably doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.

When you are within the 6.8 to 8.2 limits of the test block at least you have a lower and upper color bounds. When you are outside those ranges, like I probably was early on, it’s a gray area. I’ll use the meter a number of times and maybe I’ll have a time when I accidentally end up with a pH above 8.2 so I can run through the same test.

As @ajw22 said a few posts earlier

I fully acknowledge I was doing exactly what @ajw22 said was unnecessary, it’s a character flaw! While it may seem like I just wasted $80, at least now I’ll feel more comfortable with my testing and there is a little peace of mind that comes with that.

As stated in various other threads using the pH meter comes with its own set of things to be dealt with. It has to be stored properly, should be calibrated periodically (this one says if not used in >1 month), and the calibration solutions are good for one year and have only so many calibrations they can perform. You may find this one on eBay when the calibration solution has expired!

@Sarah and Nate should look at the difference in color between the comparison blocks.

Is the TFT comparator supplied by Taylor?

 

[Schwimmbad]

That's quite a comparison! Thanks.

This is what works for me. I don't try to match the color. I usually can't. And you're discovering why. The color of the liquid sample rarely, if ever, matches the colors on the vial. And to make things worse, the tints of the two colors rarely match either. One color is always lighter or darker than the other. So I compare hue. Color and tint and hue are terms I use for work, but you don't even have to know what those each mean to try this. But for reference: using four drops instead of five alters the tint, not the hue. It's slightly easier to judge hue when the tint matches. I use four drops, for that reason.

The color swatches range from yellow to magenta. But don't look at all the swatches at once, and try to figure out which is closest. Instead, pick just one swatch and compare it to the test sample. And then ask: is the sample more magenta than the swatch, or more yellow? If you can't answer that question, then that's the match. But say it's more magenta. You would then move to the next swatch up and repeat the question, until you can't answer it. And then that's the match. If more yellow, then move down the swatches.

Remember, ignore the tint (lighter or darker), just focus on "more magenta" or "more yellow." If the sample is more magenta than the swatch, but more yellow than the swatch above it, then your pH is a value in between. My comporator is finer than yours. It graduates in pH values of 0.2, not 0.3 and 0.4 like yours does. I can read pH to within 0.05, using the method I described, but even within 0.1 is not really necessary. Close enough is close enough.

The other thing I do is control the lighting. I don't test outdoors (that's crazy talk, IMO). I test in a windowless room under very even and very neutral LED light (not too orange, not too blue). I hold the comparator, in one hand, a few inches below a strip of LED lights (under-counter lights), and a white card in the other hand. I hold the white card behind the comparator and tilt it just so, so the light from the LEDs bounces off the card and through the comparator. That MO (especially without the variables that sun and clouds produce) creates a very repeatable and consistent testing environment.

That's how I do, anyway...

PS. Good luck with the pH meter. I would have tried to talk you out of that. But maybe you'll find it useful. And I've never used one, but now wouldn't. I have pH down now, and it's so fast and easy (and repeatable), that I wouldn't want to deal with a gizmo that requires batteries and callibration. The accuracy necessary for pool pH just doesn't justify the bother (to me).

I knew before buying the meter it wasn’t what I would use long term. I don’t want to mess with the calibration and batteries either. I just wanted to have something to see what a confirmed pH would look like on the comparator. I expected after using it a little while and simultaneously doing the test with the comparator I’ll start to feel good about my results and the meter is going to collect dust.

I like the idea on doing the test under the same consistent light. I’ll try doing the tests in one of our guest bathrooms. My wife will appreciate getting that stuff out off the kitchen island where I usually do it all.

@Sarah and Nate should look at the difference in color between the comparison blocks.

Is the TFT comparator supplied by Taylor?

TFTestkits provided it, listed as the Taylor one.

I’m sure the lighting and phone camera doesn’t produce an exact representation, but they do look different.

 

[Sarah and Nate]

@Sarah and Nate should look at the difference in color between the comparison blocks.

Is the TFT comparator supplied by Taylor?

No, we use a different supplier. We also sell the 9781 comparator that’s included in the K-1000 and the like.

 

[kimkats]

I do the same as Dirk. I bring water in and do the pH test under my stove light as it is very bright. I have a white plastic plate I use as a backdrop. That really helped me dial in my pH testing.