Newb OB with BYOP in Buckeye AZ - pebble and tile touch up suggestions

[Newdude]

Did pH again with 4 drops. Looks much more like 8.2.

It does to me too.

Curious why the need to deviate from the test instructions. I might be sorry I asked, but curious nonetheless.

@JamesW and @JoyfulNoise always have an explanation above my pay grade that goes in one eye and out the other.

Somethin somethin somethin somethin 4 drops might help. GOT IT !!! Thanks.

Anecdotally, mine gets that red shade or even darker red when my FC is above 8 or so.

 

[duraleigh]

Curious why the need to deviate from the test instructions. I might be sorry I asked, but curious nonetheless.

Most don't need to.......probably less than 2-3%. You'll get used to seeing the same hue each time and that's what you want.......consistency.

 

[bdavis466]

You’re planning on raising your TA to 200?

 

[Schwimmbad]

You’re planning on raising your TA to 200?

Hmmm..... now for some reason I'm questioning what I thought I read in @onBalance bicarb start up guide and your comments a little earlier in this thread. I guess I'm confusing myself between just focusing on CSI of +0.4 to +0.6 (which seems to be what you are trying to drill into my head) and what I read in the bicarb start up guide that TA should be a minimum of 200 ppm.

In order to protect and help new plaster cure properly, the CSI of the tap water should be about +0.5 for about 2 to 3 weeks. This can be accomplished by adding sufficient alkalinity (in this case, sodium bicarbonate, also known as baking soda or Bicarb) to the tap water so that the water is not aggressive to new plaster. A minimum of 200 ppm of total alkalinity (TA) is required, but a higher TA amount may be needed based on the calcium content of the tap water.

If I'm on the right track I'll just focus on any chemicals to keep CSI in the target range and forget about the TA minimum. Assuming so, I just keep pH high like you said (8.0-8.2) and will be adding acid if getting above that and possibly bicarb if the new pH reading after acid pushes CSI down below +0.4 to bring it back up (using pool math to simulate what TA needs to be to get in range.

A word of caution, with high TA the pH will want to rise very quickly so staying on top of it will be needed.

Are you suggesting testing more frequently than once a day?

By the way I have some trichlor pucks floating around the pool now. I opened it up for the most flow. Do I just keep it full and wide open for the first 30 days?

 

[bdavis466]

Hmmm..... now for some reason I'm questioning what I thought I read in @onBalance bicarb start up guide and your comments a little earlier in this thread. I guess I'm confusing myself between just focusing on CSI of +0.4 to +0.6 (which seems to be what you are trying to drill into my head) and what I read in the bicarb start up guide that TA should be a minimum of 200 ppm.


If I'm on the right track I'll just focus on any chemicals to keep CSI in the target range and forget about the TA minimum. Assuming so, I just keep pH high like you said (8.0-8.2) and will be adding acid if getting above that and possibly bicarb if the new pH reading after acid pushes CSI down below +0.4 to bring it back up (using pool math to simulate what TA needs to be to get in range.


Are you suggesting testing more frequently than once a day?

By the way I have some trichlor pucks floating around the pool now. I opened it up for the most flow. Do I just keep it full and wide open for the first 30 days?

The CH +TA recommendation was made for people that don’t have a CSI calculator. While it works as a general guideline, it doesn’t take all the variables into account that CSI does. What you’re trying to do is maintain a level of carbonate that is over saturated in regards to what the plaster needs so that you build a more dense and robust Plaster surface. The trouble with this though is that you don’t want to start forming scale which might be a little unlikely for you right now but is not something you’d want to occur.

I don’t see any reason to test more than once a day, and even that is probably a little excessive but I assume that since you chose this method of startup that you’re happy to do so.

You are on the right track. The pucks in the floater should be fine as you have it set.

 

[onBalance]

I came up with the Bicarb startup concept 40 years ago and the 200 ppm alkalinity minimum . In recent years, Orenda began promoting a "Calcium" startup program. Unfortunately, some tap water only has about 80 ppm of alkalinity which does not have enough buffering ability and needs to be higher. There have been some problems under those low alkalinity conditions. I have determined now that if the calcium level of the tap water is already high or raised to at least 250 ppm, then the alkalinity only needs to be about 150 ppm which will provide just enough buffering of the pH.

The combined total of TA and CH at 400 ppm is the minimum number (500 ppm is the Ideal), with the alkalinity at an absolute minimum of 125 ppm as the most important parameter to achieve. I do prefer a minimum of at least 150 ppm of alkalinity, but some people don't like dealing with an initial high alkalinity and having to lower it to common range of 80 to 100 ppm.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Thanks again @bdavis466. That really helps me understand what I’m going after.

Todays test
Water temp 65
pH 8.3? (used 4 drops of R-0014)
TA 140
CSI + 0.82

While I’m still not confident in my reading of the test block, pH seems clearly around 8.2 or higher. So I need to add some acid to drop CSI down to around + 0.5. Pool Math shows a pH of 8.1 gives me CSI of + 0.62. So I’d like to actually be at a pH of 8. To hopefully get down to that I need to add 3 cups 5 oz of Muriatic acid.

 

[Newdude]

So I’d like to actually be at a pH of 8. To hopefully get down to that I need to add 3 cups 5 oz of Muriatic acid.

Does the color get more on scale after adding ?

 

[Schwimmbad]

Seems it moved a little. To me it seems a shade darker than 8.2, but very close.

@ 1:30pm, about 1.5 hrs after adding acid. Seems closer to 8.2. What do you think?
@ 11:20am


It still feels like more acid is needed. Thoughts?

 

[Newdude]

What do you think?

I'm seeing it lighter in pic 2, but still high. Add again and check after 15 mins with good circulation. It might appear as more of a dent before it rises again.

 

[Schwimmbad]

I've been trying to check against sunlight backdrop but I think the test block isn't always the same distance from the white background. It seems I need to try to be consistent with the lighting and backdrop. I have a nice LED stand light that I’ll start using. I believe I read somewhere that using a LED light is a good practice.

Added another add 3 cups 5 oz of Muriatic acid. Had pump running at 3400 rpms when pouring in the acid and dropped to 2500 rpms for circulation with all returns open, including the floor return (future chiller). Was getting 86 gpm at 2500.

I think the latest result is a little below 8.2. What would you say?

 

[Newdude]

I think the latest result is a little below 8.2. What would you say?

Definitely lighter than it was and almost, but not quite 8.2.

What's the FC been ? I just see the 0 now and 1 last week.

 

[bdavis466]

I would say your pH readings are accurate, and would align with what I would expect you to be seeing. I wouldn’t fixate on it too much, just grab your reading and add some acid if needed.

The trouble with using CSI is that it is very accurate based on the numbers you provide but the testing is not nearly that accurate. A 0.1 difference in a PH reading can have a drastic effect on the CSI but that could just be standard deviation or a variation in testing.

The bottom line is that it’s not exact and you’re not going to do any harm to Pool if your CSI is a little out of range from where you want it. You should probably be adding some amount of acid every day and I would expect you to need to raise the TA soon from the those additions.

 

[Schwimmbad]

First time testing FC with pool water. Just finished filling yesterday. I have the pucks floating around as suggested by @bdavis466. Are you suggesting to add some liquid chlorine?

I added a 2 cups 3 oz more acid per pool math by entering 8.2 as actual and target 8.0. Did that and the last test looks between 7.8 and 8.2, but much closer to 8.2, so I'll call it 8.1 and call it a day. Thanks again @Newdude and @bdavis466. You guys are awesome.

The trouble with using CSI is that it is very accurate based on the numbers you provide but the testing is not nearly that accurate. A 0.1 difference in a PH reading can have a drastic effect on the CSI but that could just be standard deviation or a variation in testing.

Especially my testing!!!

 

[bdavis466]

…. Are you suggesting to add some liquid chlorine?

No, you don’t have any CYA in the pool so any amount of chlorine is plenty right now. This is one of the few times you can use pucks and just let them do their thing.

 

[Newdude]

+1 I was just curious

 

[Schwimmbad]

A quick diversion from chem management. I got the microbrites working but not sure it is set up correctly. I didn’t see a selection for microbrites in the circuit set up so I selected intellibrites. I know I updated the firmware before I got the intellicenter up and running on my network. This just seems strange to me that there isn’t a selection for microbrites.

So they work but when I change colors they will shut off for a few seconds, flash a few seconds the last color they were on, shut off for a few seconds, and come back on with the selected color.

Here are all the solid colors.

 

[bdavis466]

That's the correct setup for the lights. Its not the type of lights specifically but the "intellibrite" color pattern.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Thank you sir! I searched and couldn’t find an answer. TFP and the experts here rock!

 

[Schwimmbad]

Today’s update.

Water temp 66
pH 8.3?
TA 130
CSI + 0.75
Using a pH of 8.0 gets CSI of +0.49 so pool math says I need 3 cups 3 oz muriatic acid to go from 8.3 to 8.0. So in it went.

Retested pH 20 min later and got what looks more like 8.2 (possibly even a bit higher) which had CSI of +0.69. Given that pH has been climbing I wanted a little lower. Using 8.2 with target of 8.0 pool math said 2 cups 2 oz acid. In it went and 15 min later got something that looks under 8.2 that I’m calling 8.1 which has CSI at +0.59 so done for today.

Here are pictures of my comparator and my guess of pH. Please correct me if you see something different.

8.3 (maybe higher since the acid didn’t drop it as much as pool math said)



8.2



8.1


I’ve been brushing. That is actually a good arm workout, especially for someone who had rotator cuff surgery about 16 weeks ago. Glad I waited a bit to fill the pool. Anyway, the first time I brushed I saw a lot of clouds in the water, second time a little, third time didn’t really see anything. When I brush I turn up the pump to 2,500 rpm’s to hopefully filter out more of the plaster dust.