New tub recommendations

I used to be into high end (OK maybe upper middle end) audio gear. McIntosh amps, Sennheiser headphones, etc. I used to be one of those people that read the reviews in Stereo Magazine and Audiophile, A/B test different components in the store, both with the same and different items in the mix, concern myself about the room acoustics and differences in listening distances causing out of phase effects, and all sorts of stuff like that (and it eventually extended to car audio, with calculating, engineering, and building sealed and ported subwoofer enclosures, full speaker swap outs, custom tweeter mounts, separate amps and head ends, power filters, etc).

Now I use an Alexa to stream music, or my hot tub speakers, or an old pair of dry rotted Advent speakers in the shop, or over 3 sets of dual drive in movie theater speakers in the yard (OK, those are pretty cool, but they are not even close to audiophile grade, I just cut out the built in potentiometers, and threw Mylar speakers in them - but they do get a good amount of attention when people see them for the first time)

What I have learned is that unless I am in a listening room, actively listening to music, a middle of the road set up is just fine. I no longer worry about bit rates, uncompressed streams, sound pressure levels, etc. If I can hear it, and hear it clearly, it's all good for me.
Yeah I’m no audiophile myself, but I have my first decent pair of speakers connected to our TV and it makes a HUGE difference vs the built in speakers. I’ve got plans to build my own set of good quality surround sound speakers for the TV. And I’d like something nice for chilling in the pool. For the hot tub, pretty much anything works. Currently we just use a portable Bluetooth battery speaker, and eventually when I hook up a Bluetooth radio connected to the built in hot tub speakers. Otherwise the few other times I listen to music is generally at work with a pair of Bluetooth Bose QC headphones streaming from YouTube Music on my phone.

Speakers make the biggest difference IMO, you’d need a quite place and active listening to make a higher quality source worth something other than streaming. For a hot tub with the loud jets almost anything will work cause you just won’t get close to any sort of ideal listening condition to make it worth the effort of something else.
 
We got a pair of Bluetooth rock speakers from Bjs/Costco for the pool. (They both sell them every summer) With all the commotion of a swim day with guests, it was a similar non need of quality sound and they are amazing for $150.

The cool part was anybody could link to them, fire up their playlist and toss their phone on the table while we all had tunes.
 
I'm thinking a picture is in order..
Set one (and for those who ask, that blue cigar looking thing in the background is how my solar cover gets stored for the winter. The hot tub is the brown cover in the foreground.

2021-10-21_12-54-51.jpg

Set 2 -slightly different make than the first set. I put these in about 2 years before I built the fire pit area. I may relocate these over to that area. The hot tub from the first picture is behind where I am standing to take this pitcure
2021-10-21_12-55-14.jpg

Set 3 - On the deck, almost directly above picture 2
2021-10-21_12-55-53.jpg

When people first see them, they ask "are those drive in movie speakers?" When I say yes, the next question is "do they work". Then I take out my phone and fire them up, and then the questions around how I got them, how did I hook them up, etc. start

The housings are original, the speakers inside them are new. The feed comes up the center of the pole, and then out to the speakers. They can still be removed from the pole and hung on a car window (or anything else) if you drove into my backyard.
 
Set one (and for those who ask, that blue cigar looking thing in the background is how my solar cover gets stored for the winter. The hot tub is the brown cover in the foreground.

View attachment 378995

Set 2 -slightly different make than the first set. I put these in about 2 years before I built the fire pit area. I may relocate these over to that area. The hot tub from the first picture is behind where I am standing to take this pitcure
View attachment 378997

Set 3 - On the deck, almost directly above picture 2
View attachment 378999

When people first see them, they ask "are those drive in movie speakers?" When I say yes, the next question is "do they work". Then I take out my phone and fire them up, and then the questions around how I got them, how did I hook them up, etc. start

The housings are original, the speakers inside them are new. The feed comes up the center of the pole, and then out to the speakers. They can still be removed from the pole and hung on a car window (or anything else) if you drove into my backyard.
HA!! those bring back some old memories!
 
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Here is the tub by the way the salt works great

The tub speakers are tiny things if I’d known would not have even mentioned I put up an a/b switch on the existing Sonis amp I have
 

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I disagree with a lot of what you are saying about 24/7 circ pumps. The one on my Hot Spring runs 24/7/365 whether the heater is on or not. It is NOT less efficient from a system that uses a jet pump part time for circulating. It is, in fact, much more efficient.

Trying to make a large electric motor turn a high output pump at low rpms when they are not designed to do that and to make them constantly shut down and start up is highly inefficient and uses FAR more electricity running part time than running a small electric motor turning a low-flow pump full time. The new circ pump that Watkins is using only uses 35 Watts. That's only a little more Wattage than those tiny little incandescent bulbs they use or used in your refrigerator. It's dead silent and they last for years and years. As an engineer, I would never buy a hot tub that uses a large jet-pump as a part-time on-again / off-again circ pump. Large electric motors draw a TON of juice when starting up and still draw a lot when running, even when running at low rpm. That is a very poor and inefficient design IMO and if you do the math on it you will see that's true.

Personally, and as an engineer, I like Watkins Hot Springs tubs a lot because I think they are well designed/engineered. I know that getting parts for them can sometimes be expensive because they don't use standard off-the-shelf Balboa spa packs and their systems are unique to Watkins but the quality of their product is high. My tub is 27 years old and is working perfectly. Yes, I've had to replace the control system on it as well as a heater (the original one had the audacity to fail after 25 years) but the plumbing is 100% sound and I expect to be running that tub for years and years to come. I think that speaks pretty well to the quality and good design of the product.
 
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I disagree with a lot of what you are saying about 24/7 circ pumps. The one on my Hot Spring runs 24/7/365 whether the heater is on or not. It is NOT less efficient from a system that uses a jet pump part time for circulating. It is, in fact, much more efficient.

Trying to make a large electric motor turn a high output pump at low rpms when they are not designed to do that and to make them constantly shut down and start up is highly inefficient and uses FAR more electricity running part time than running a small electric motor turning a low-flow pump full time. The new circ pump that Watkins is using only uses 35 Watts. That's only a little more Wattage than those tiny little incandescent bulbs they use or used in your refrigerator. It's dead silent and they last for years and years. As an engineer, I would never buy a hot tub that uses a large jet-pump as a part-time on-again / off-again circ pump. Large electric motors draw a TON of juice when starting up and still draw a lot when running, even when running at low rpm. That is a very poor and inefficient design IMO and if you do the math on it you will see that's true.

Personally, and as an engineer, I like Watkins Hot Springs tubs a lot because I think they are well designed/engineered. I know that getting parts for them can sometimes be expensive because they don't use standard off-the-shelf Balboa spa packs and their systems are unique to Watkins but the quality of their product is high. My tub is 27 years old and is working perfectly. Yes, I've had to replace the control system on it as well as a heater (the original one had the audacity to fail after 25 years) but the plumbing is 100% sound and I expect to be running that tub for years and years to come. I think that speaks pretty well to the quality and good design of the product.
agree the small circulation pump is better suited to the job
 
I disagree with a lot of what you are saying about 24/7 circ pumps. The one on my Hot Spring runs 24/7/365 whether the heater is on or not. It is NOT less efficient from a system that uses a jet pump part time for circulating. It is, in fact, much more efficient.

Trying to make a large electric motor turn a high output pump at low rpms when they are not designed to do that and to make them constantly shut down and start up is highly inefficient and uses FAR more electricity running part time than running a small electric motor turning a low-flow pump full time. The new circ pump that Watkins is using only uses 35 Watts. That's only a little more Wattage than those tiny little incandescent bulbs they use or used in your refrigerator. It's dead silent and they last for years and years. As an engineer, I would never buy a hot tub that uses a large jet-pump as a part-time on-again / off-again circ pump. Large electric motors draw a TON of juice when starting up and still draw a lot when running, even when running at low rpm. That is a very poor and inefficient design IMO and if you do the math on it you will see that's true.

Personally, and as an engineer, I like Watkins Hot Springs tubs a lot because I think they are well designed/engineered. I know that getting parts for them can sometimes be expensive because they don't use standard off-the-shelf Balboa spa packs and their systems are unique to Watkins but the quality of their product is high. My tub is 27 years old and is working perfectly. Yes, I've had to replace the control system on it as well as a heater (the original one had the audacity to fail after 25 years) but the plumbing is 100% sound and I expect to be running that tub for years and years to come. I think that speaks pretty well to the quality and good design of the product.
Well, as an engineer, this intrigues me. I'm actually not certain how much more efficient it is. My two speed pump uses a (rated) 2.7 A at 240 V, or 648 watts. Considerably more power, but how much does it run?

First off, start up energy usage of a pump can effectively be neglected. There is a large current surge when a motor is started but only for an extremely brief period, like a couple seconds at best. So when you're talking about running a pump for minutes or more, it's effectively nothing.

Now, from a pump wattage perspective, things don't look good. If no heat is needed, the pump runs about 2 minutes every 20 minutes to circulate the water. That's 144 minutes a day, or 1600 Wh/day. This is almost double the 840 Wh/day a 35 watt pump would use running 24/7. So, it doesn't look great.

But the real question is...how much is wasted? Hot tubs need heat 24/7. Motors are 80-90% efficient. So 10-20% is wasted as heat in the motor. The rest of the energy? It all becomes heat in the hot tub. Basic thermodynamics. Energy in = energy out. All energy going into the motor has to go somewhere, so some is wasted as heat in the motor, but anything that gets put into the pump moves the water, which has friction, and ultimately all that energy ends up as heat. So if we say in both cases the motor is 80% efficient, and hot tubs always need heat, than the only wasted energy is that lost in heat in the motor, since 80% of the energy the motor is drawing is actually heating the water. So considering this, in my case I waste 320 Wh/day, and you waste 168 Wh/day. At my rates of $0.12/kWh, that's an extra $6/year. Not a lot at all.

However the issue is when you need heat, my pump needs to run on low speed the entire time the heater is on. I don't know how much this is. Say in winter my tub uses 500 kWh/month to heat. My low speed pump is adding that 520 watts of heat to the water, plus the 5.5 kW heater, so I need to run the pump an extra 83 hours a month for heating, or an extra 10.7 kWh/month, which is an extra $1.29/month at my electric rates. Not great, but certainly not terrible, and is dwarfed by the $60/month I'm spending in electricity per month. Really not something you'd notice on your electric bill, and this is worst case, winter month effect, so you wouldn't have an extra $1.29 every month.

Of course there's other factors in this if you are trying to consider all factors. By using the low speed pump, you are regularily mixing in the water in the pumps to the large pumps, which are uninsulated in the equipment bay, so each time the pump kicks on to check the water temp and circulate you loose a bit of heat from this. The 24/7 circ pump also will have some uninsulated sections, but presumably much less uninsulated pipe length and much smaller pipes, so overall less heat loss would be my guess. You'll have some extra bearing and pump seal wear on the two speed pump. You have other factors like my pump runs an extra few hours per day to run an ozone cycle, but it can heat during this so calculating this is a bit tricky. Not all spas have ozone, and my ozone is long broke and I want to disable the cycles entirely so the pump doesn't run, but I haven't bothered to figure out if that's possible yet.

In summary, yeah, it's less efficient, but compared to the massive energy usage of a spa in general, not that much less efficient. In round numbers, it's like saying the 24/7 circ pump is twice as efficient, which it certainly is, but twice as efficient on 2% of the overall energy usage of the spa (again in worst case scenario, so ultimately it's not quite as big an effect to use a two speed jet pump for circulation and heating as it initially seems once you start considering all the factors.
 
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A 24/7 circ pump is just another component that can fail in the system. We had to replace circ pumps all the time when we carried spas that used them. Using P1 low speed to filter, circulate, and heat the water is the best way to keep the system clean and functioning.

The Dimension One spas are the only ones who utilize an ozone mixing chamber along with their mineral cartridge to maintain a low chlorine system. They are the only brand I know of that, if you follow the directions, the ozone is actually helping. Any other system will not hold ozone in contact long enough so it is just used for marketing. The AquaNova system will actually do more than ozone alone, but in my experience, no one notices any change with or without the system in daily usage. They never notice a change in chemical usage after the unit fails and needs to be replaced.

The first thing you want to do when buying a new hot tub is to ask to speak with the service tech or the service manager for the company. Most retail stores will have their own technicians to make any repairs on the spa. You want to make sure that the tech is professional and knows about the spa. You will be stuck with that tech for the life of your spa as most retail stores will not touch a spa they did not sell. With the demand for mechanically inclined people in the job market, you will have a very hard time finding anyone else to work on your hot tub. Unless you want to learn and make all repairs yourself, find a good tech then ask them what tub they would buy with your amount of bathers.

As for the big differences to look for in spas, they are fairly simple. Find one that you are comfortable sitting in that has room for everyone's feet. Most hot tubs are using equipment they buy from another company whether it be Balboa or Gecko. That makes the replacement parts not only cheaper but easier to buy. You don't need to worry about the manufacturer deciding to end of life your display panel just to push you into buying a new spa. That is why you want to avoid anyone like Hotsprings, Caldera, and Dimension One, they all make their systems proprietary so that you can't get the parts yourself. You also need to consider finding a spa that isn't still filling the cavity with spray foam. Find one that uses perimeter insulation with a thermal barrier. This will provide both ease of repair of plumbing over the long term and it will regain the heat produced by the pump motor into the spa water. This also provides more time in freezing weather before the plumbing is frozen.

As far as the SWG in the spa, we avoid them at all costs, the same goes for any floating dispenser in the spa. Bather load on a spa fluctuates too frequently for any homeowner to keep up on adjusting the levels properly to maintain them. Anything that provides constant release of sanitizing is also going to destroy your cover and pillows, anything above the waterline. That is why you are told to keep your cover open 15 minutes after adding any oxidizer or sanitizer to your system. The hard part with this is that it is very hard to find any granular chlorine or bromine that has no CYA in it. We have had CYA levels so high that it required 2 water changes to get them back down. You can find the charts here that show the effectiveness of FC to CYA levels. An easy rule of thumb is that with a CYA over 60 the level you hold of FC is completely ineffective at killing any bacteria in the water. It will die of old age before the FC can destroy it. Until someone makes a granular version with no CYA, we are all stuck with frequent water changes or replacing expensive covers every 3 years.
 
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A 24/7 circ pump is just another component that can fail in the system. We had to replace circ pumps all the time when we carried spas that used them. Using P1 low speed to filter, circulate, and heat the water is the best way to keep the system clean and functioning.

The Dimension One spas are the only ones who utilize an ozone mixing chamber along with their mineral cartridge to maintain a low chlorine system. They are the only brand I know of that, if you follow the directions, the ozone is actually helping. Any other system will not hold ozone in contact long enough so it is just used for marketing. The AquaNova system will actually do more than ozone alone, but in my experience, no one notices any change with or without the system in daily usage. They never notice a change in chemical usage after the unit fails and needs to be replaced.

The first thing you want to do when buying a new hot tub is to ask to speak with the service tech or the service manager for the company. Most retail stores will have their own technicians to make any repairs on the spa. You want to make sure that the tech is professional and knows about the spa. You will be stuck with that tech for the life of your spa as most retail stores will not touch a spa they did not sell. With the demand for mechanically inclined people in the job market, you will have a very hard time finding anyone else to work on your hot tub. Unless you want to learn and make all repairs yourself, find a good tech then ask them what tub they would buy with your amount of bathers.

As for the big differences to look for in spas, they are fairly simple. Find one that you are comfortable sitting in that has room for everyone's feet. Most hot tubs are using equipment they buy from another company whether it be Balboa or Gecko. That makes the replacement parts not only cheaper but easier to buy. You don't need to worry about the manufacturer deciding to end of life your display panel just to push you into buying a new spa. That is why you want to avoid anyone like Hotsprings, Caldera, and Dimension One, they all make their systems proprietary so that you can't get the parts yourself. You also need to consider finding a spa that isn't still filling the cavity with spray foam. Find one that uses perimeter insulation with a thermal barrier. This will provide both ease of repair of plumbing over the long term and it will regain the heat produced by the pump motor into the spa water. This also provides more time in freezing weather before the plumbing is frozen.

As far as the SWG in the spa, we avoid them at all costs, the same goes for any floating dispenser in the spa. Bather load on a spa fluctuates too frequently for any homeowner to keep up on adjusting the levels properly to maintain them. Anything that provides constant release of sanitizing is also going to destroy your cover and pillows, anything above the waterline. That is why you are told to keep your cover open 15 minutes after adding any oxidizer or sanitizer to your system. The hard part with this is that it is very hard to find any granular chlorine or bromine that has no CYA in it. We have had CYA levels so high that it required 2 water changes to get them back down. You can find the charts here that show the effectiveness of FC to CYA levels. An easy rule of thumb is that with a CYA over 60 the level you hold of FC is completely ineffective at killing any bacteria in the water. It will die of old age before the FC can destroy it. Until someone makes a granular version with no CYA, we are all stuck with frequent water changes or replacing expensive covers every 3 years.

Bullfrog also uses a mixing chamber -

Minerals - bah

UV - It cant hurt

Totally agree about finding out who will be servicing your spa if service is needed

Why use granular chlorine - good old bleach or chlorinating liquid works just dandy
 
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Bullfrog also uses a mixing chamber -

Minerals - bah

UV - It cant hurt

Totally agree about finding out who will be servicing your spa if service is needed

Why use granular chlorine - good old bleach or chlorinating liquid works just dandy
Haven't seen that bullfrog mixing chamber yet, it almost makes up for the gimmicky "moveable jet packs" on their tubs. It would be a bit better with an increased surface area to slow the water down and help dissolve the 03 better into the water. This might not work well on a spa as it would turn into a mini-filter and need to be cleaned regularly so maybe that is why they don't do that.

Bleach has a lower amount of chlorine in it along with other products not intended for a hot tub. Chlorinating liquid has a ph of 11 so you'd be fighting that every time you add any. Not that it would be a huge issue to deal with, SG pools and spas deal with it all the time as it is producing liquid chlorine.
 
Bleach has a lower amount of chlorine in it along with other products not intended for a hot tub. Chlorinating liquid has a ph of 11 so you'd be fighting that every time you add any. Not that it would be a huge issue to deal with, SG pools and spas deal with it all the time as it is producing liquid chlorine.
For clarification.
Plain bleach is fine for pools or spas.
The pH of bleach or any chlorinating liquid is moot as the process of using it in a pool or spa is pH neutral.
A SG (I assume that means SaltWater Chlorine Generator) does not raise the pH of pool water when the entire process is analyzed.
 
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