New tub recommendations

[phonedave]

Haven't seen that bullfrog mixing chamber yet, it almost makes up for the gimmicky "moveable jet packs" on their tubs. It would be a bit better with an increased surface area to slow the water down and help dissolve the 03 better into the water. This might not work well on a spa as it would turn into a mini-filter and need to be cleaned regularly so maybe that is why they don't do that.

Bleach has a lower amount of chlorine in it along with other products not intended for a hot tub. Chlorinating liquid has a ph of 11 so you'd be fighting that every time you add any. Not that it would be a huge issue to deal with, SG pools and spas deal with it all the time as it is producing liquid chlorine.

Not sure what you think is gimmicky about them. I liked the option of being able to pick what jets I wanted. I also like that fact that I can (and do) move my packs around. I'm much taller than my wife. If she wants to use the shoulder massager pack in the deep seats, the effect is lost on her as the jets are well above her shoulders. If I use it in the shallow seats, my shoulders are jammed up against the jets, so I move it to the deep seats. I also move my packs around depending on where I feel like sitting (which depends on the season usually)

Plain bleach, which is what we advocate on this site, does not have additives that are bad for a pool or spa. Also, who cares what the concentration is, especially with a spa. The amounts you add in a 300 - 500 gallon spa are small, so storage differences are negligible. I used standard bleach in a 17,000 gallon pool for years.

 

[jseyfert3]

As far as the SWG in the spa, we avoid them at all costs, the same goes for any floating dispenser in the spa. Bather load on a spa fluctuates too frequently for any homeowner to keep up on adjusting the levels properly to maintain them. Anything that provides constant release of sanitizing is also going to destroy your cover and pillows, anything above the waterline. That is why you are told to keep your cover open 15 minutes after adding any oxidizer or sanitizer to your system. The hard part with this is that it is very hard to find any granular chlorine or bromine that has no CYA in it. We have had CYA levels so high that it required 2 water changes to get them back down. You can find the charts here that show the effectiveness of FC to CYA levels. An easy rule of thumb is that with a CYA over 60 the level you hold of FC is completely ineffective at killing any bacteria in the water. It will die of old age before the FC can destroy it. Until someone makes a granular version with no CYA, we are all stuck with frequent water changes or replacing expensive covers every 3 years.

I politely but strongly disagree with the SWCG. Yes, spa demands change frequently. But you can easily deal with this. The primary demand changes are when the tub is used. So what do I do to make this easy?

Simple. I set my SWCG to a level that maintains FC when I'm not using the tub. Then I manually add liquid chlorine after we use the tub to take care of the sudden, but temporary increase in FC demand. This works amazingly well, and I'll never go back to a tub without a SWCG. I don't have any issues with the cover or pillows getting damaged.

Bleach has a lower amount of chlorine in it along with other products not intended for a hot tub. Chlorinating liquid has a ph of 11 so you'd be fighting that every time you add any. Not that it would be a huge issue to deal with, SG pools and spas deal with it all the time as it is producing liquid chlorine.

Yes, a lot of bleach has additives you don't want. Clorox brand somewhat recently changed to adding a splashless additive in all bleach, which is not desired. Store brands don't usually have this though, and so are find to use.

The pH thing isn't an issue. Liquid chlorine, either bleach or pool stuff, both have high pH, but that isn't what raises the pH. Adding liquid chlorine raises pH due to the reactions of the sodium hypochlorite and water. Once the FC is used up the pH drops back down. This pH change happens with any chlorine additive due to the chemistry involved. There is a very slight increase in pH over time due to the pH of the liquid, but this isn't much and is easily handled with acid. Most pH increase is due to the TA of the water. Once that's dialed down to the recommended level (~50 ppm) you don't have issues controlling pH.

One reason people think liquid chlorine raises the pH is not because it raise the pH a lot (it doesn't) but because at the "industry standard" TA levels the natural pH rise in a spa is insane. This is countered to some extent by the acidic nature of dichlor/trichlor. So when people switch from dichlor to liquid chlorine they blame the liquid chlorine, when really what they are seeing is the natural pH rise water has due to the TA that isn't being countered with the acidic dichlor/trichlor, and not due to the liquid chlorine itself. But again by getting the TA to a better level (~50) this pH rise goes away and liquid chlorine is not an issue pH wise.

 

[Fring]

I was thinking more of what part of the industry, repair, dealer, manufacturers rep... that kind of thing.

New here, sorry. I have been running the hot tub repair for my company for the last 13 years.

 

[Fring]

For clarification.
Plain bleach is fine for pools or spas.
The pH of bleach or any chlorinating liquid is moot as the process of using it in a pool or spa is pH neutral.
A SG (I assume that means SaltWater Chlorine Generator) does not raise the pH of pool water when the entire process is analyzed.

Plain bleach (Clorox I believe you mean) is 6% and liquid chlorine is 13%.
The pH of liquid chlorine is 13 and I have seen that drive up the pH both in pools and spas. Just like tablets drive the pH down.
Salt generators are generating liquid chlorine at a pH of 12-13 as well. That is why on auto covers or indoor pools you need to have an acid injection to help control the pH from climbing up.
Can you link to some articles showing that the process of chlorination is neutralizing the pH in pools and spas I would very much like to review them? This is all information that we have been trained on by our chemical manufacturers.

 

[mknauss]

Can you link to some articles showing that the process of chlorination is neutralizing the pH in pools and spas I would very much like to review them?

Pool Water Chemistry

This thread presents my findings so far on pool water chemistry including the following: More Accurate Calcite Saturation Index (CSI) to replace Langelier Saturation Index (LSI) Calculation of ppm HOCl (disinfecting chlorine) at various levels of Total Free Chlorine (FC) and Cyanuric Acid (CYA)...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Newdude]

Plain bleach (Clorox I believe you mean) is 6% and liquid chlorine is 13%.

Bleach is typically not needed to be stronger for household use. But it's the same Sodium Hyperchlorite and if the right deal comes along, it can be a good buy. Or with the shortages, it was an emergency buy for many.

The pH of liquid chlorine is 13 and I have seen that drive up the pH both in pools and spas.

Diluted somewhere between 300:1 and 500:1 it is of no concern. 500 gallons of pH 7 and 1 gallon of PH 11 raises the PH by 0.008. A smaller tub will be 'more' but just as insignificant if it raises PH by 0.013. And it takes forever to need that whole gallon. Adding 1/4 cup at a time is like spitting in the ocean.

 

[A.O.]

Bleach is typically not needed to be stronger for household use. But it's the same Sodium Hyperchlorite and if the right deal comes along, it can be a good buy. Or with the shortages, it was an emergency buy for many.

Diluted somewhere between 300:1 and 500:1 it is of no concern. 500 gallons of pH 7 and 1 gallon of PH 11 raises the PH by 0.008. A smaller tub will be 'more' but just as insignificant if it raises PH by 0.013. And it takes forever to need that whole gallon. Adding 1/4 cup at a time is like spitting in the ocean.

I add about 5-6 oz per day in my tub thats with 2 uses per day and 450 gal.. that's what , like 20 ish days per gallon? (12%)

 

[A.O.]

Plain bleach (Clorox I believe you mean) is 6% and liquid chlorine is 13%.
The pH of liquid chlorine is 13 and I have seen that drive up the pH both in pools and spas. Just like tablets drive the pH down.
Salt generators are generating liquid chlorine at a pH of 12-13 as well. That is why on auto covers or indoor pools you need to have an acid injection to help control the pH from climbing up.
Can you link to some articles showing that the process of chlorination is neutralizing the pH in pools and spas I would very much like to review them? This is all information that we have been trained on by our chemical manufacturers.

Not doubting what you are saying or your expertise but the chemical manufacturers are there to sell products.

 

[Fring]

Not doubting what you are saying or your expertise but the chemical manufacturers are there to sell products.

I totally agree, you wouldn't believe how hard they push calcium on acrylic spas. That was why I was hoping to get more information into this. As people have already pointed out, never trust a salesman.

 

[Fring]

Simple. I set my SWCG to a level that maintains FC when I'm not using the tub. Then I manually add liquid chlorine after we use the tub to take care of the sudden, but temporary increase in FC demand. This works amazingly well, and I'll never go back to a tub without a SWCG. I don't have any issues with the cover or pillows getting damaged.

How exactly are you adding bleach / liquid chlorine to the spa? Just pour the gallon into a measuring cup/spa, like you would a swimming pool?
My worry for customers would be splashback or spillage. People generally are looking for the "easiest" options.
We have also noticed recently that the @ease system tends to degrade the gaskets in the spa rather quickly if you have any insight into why this might happen. Frog seemed surprised by this and said they hadn't heard of this before.

 

[mknauss]

that the @ease system

This system is rubbish.
Please review Very Short Frog SmartChlor lifetime when Minerals expired?

 

[A.O.]

I totally agree, you wouldn't believe how hard they push calcium on acrylic spas. That was why I was hoping to get more information into this. As people have already pointed out, never trust a salesman.

Why do they push calcium on acrylic spas? Whats their reasoning?

 

[A.O.]

How exactly are you adding bleach / liquid chlorine to the spa? Just pour the gallon into a measuring cup/spa, like you would a swimming pool?
My worry for customers would be splashback or spillage. People generally are looking for the "easiest" options.
We have also noticed recently that the @ease system tends to degrade the gaskets in the spa rather quickly if you have any insight into why this might happen. Frog seemed surprised by this and said they hadn't heard of this before.

This is how I add mine, yes I have to pour it in from a gallon bottle to start , but if I cant handle that I should get a pool service to begin with!

 

[Fring]

Why do they push calcium on acrylic spas? Whats their reasoning?

Hardening the water for less foaming makes the water more "sparkling", keeping the vinyl cover from having calcium leached from it.

I personally hate it because I have had to scrub the scaling from hot tubs before. I also do not see any value in adding it to acrylic spas.

 

[Mdragger88]

I do exactly like @jseyfert3
I use a small plastic measuring cup for the bleach / liquid chlorine that i transfer to a small quart bleach container from my larger ones to keep near the spa.
Easy peasy- been doing laundry & cleaning all my life with basically no damage. All chems must be measured & respected.
I like how they act like adults who have lived enough to earn the $$$ it takes to acquire a pool or spa are too inept to accurately measure a household chemical like bleach or Muriatic acid so they need a special chem that they perceive is safer for us & solves our “idiot problem” but it actually isn’t. Dry acid will burn u - it doesn’t rinse off nearly as easily & people don’t treat it like the acid that it is which makes it even more dangerous. Dichlor & trichlor will bleach the Crud out of surfaces & u won’t know till its too late.
I have ruined many shirts & pants with trichlor/dichlor shock powder before finding tfp. The wind easily carries powder, u don’t realize it & then when u wash the clothes they have dots all over.

 

[A.O.]

Hardening the water for less foaming makes the water more "sparkling", keeping the vinyl cover from having calcium leached from it.

I personally hate it because I have had to scrub the scaling from hot tubs before. I also do not see any value in adding it to acrylic spas.

Agreed, I have very soft well water here and it has no negative effects on my fiberglass pool or acrylic hot tub. And I have no foaming problems either.

 

[phonedave]

I do exactly like @jseyfert3
I use a small plastic measuring cup for the bleach / liquid chlorine that i transfer to a small quart bleach container from my larger ones to keep near the spa.
Easy peasy- been doing laundry & cleaning all my life with basically no damage. All chems must be measured & respected.
I like how they act like adults who have lived enough to earn the $$$ it takes to acquire a pool or spa are too inept to accurately measure a household chemical like bleach or Muriatic acid so they need a special chem that they perceive is safer for us & solves our “idiot problem” but it actually isn’t. Dry acid will burn u - it doesn’t rinse off nearly as easily & people don’t treat it like the acid that it is which makes it even more dangerous. Dichlor & trichlor will bleach the Crud out of surfaces & u won’t know till its too late.
I have ruined many shirts & pants with trichlor/dichlor shock powder before finding tfp. The wind easily carries powder, u don’t realize it & then when u wash the clothes they have dots all over.

I pour mine straight from the gallon jug into a measuring cup because I am gangster like that. Sometimes if I am lazy, I pour it straight into the hot tub from the gallon jug.

"I like how they act like adults who have lived enough to earn the $$$ it takes to acquire a pool or spa are too inept to accurately measure a household chemical like bleach" - I am constantly surprised by the inability of people to perform what I consider basic tasks. On our local FB group there is a person asking for a handyman to come and hang up pictures. There many smart people that cannot handle the simplest of everyday physical tasks.

 

[Mdragger88]

I have carpal tunnel & arthritis so I save the big jugs for the pool where I can lean them on the edge for support- also my little jug fits better under the patio coffee table I am a rebel like u with the MA though, since I rarely have to use it.