New (to me) Pool Owner

[dcsmith]

I am a 74 year old retiree. I recently purchased a house with a 11 year old pool (~23,000 gallons). I have completely replaced ALL the equipment, pumps (5), filters (2), heaters (2). and Chlorine generator. All are Pentair.
I was getting mixed results getting pool water tested by one Pinch-a-Penny, so I went to another one. Same inconsistent results.
I purchased a German photometric pool water tester (PoolLab 1.0) and started getting consistent results.
My big issue is with achieving a balance of pH & Alkalinity. I understand it is a typical problem. I have been alternately adding Muriatic acid and Sodium Bicarb (Arm & Hammer). I am very close. Current pH: 7.7, Alkalinity:90. I have read Robert Lowry's booklet on pool chemistry. This led to the discovery of adding Boric acid to stabilize pH. However, I understand the EU is dead set against this chemical and the local pool supply stores don't even test for it. I purchased a 55# bucket of Boric acid granules and added about half yesterday. Borate level today is between 20-30 ppm (test strip). According to Lowry's booklet the target borate level should be 50 and not exceeded. I added about another 10# today. I'll test tomorrow.
Looking for experience.

 

[mknauss]

Welcome to the forum!

I suggest you read ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry.

 

[duade]

Baller.... Good lookin pool man

 

[needsajet]

Welcome to TFP! Good to have you here Sounds like a very nice pool.

Just the right advice from Marty above. You'll eventually find a level of TA that works for you, probably down around 50 to 70.

Adding your own "signature" will help you get the best answers. One question I had from your description is what sort of chlorine generator you have.

 

[Mdragger88]

Welcome
Glad u found TFP!
It sounds kinda like maybe you were on a little bit of a ph/ta merry go round
Just so u understand it’s not necessary -
Here’s some info on lowering TA safely & easily for future reference

Lower Total Alkalinity

A lower Total Alkalinity level can help a pool owner stabalize their pH increase. We'll explain how to lower TA with a little help from muriatic acid.

www.google.com

I’m sure the pool lab is simple to use & seems precise but digital results should always be confirmed every so often with a proper drop kit like the Taylor k2006 or tf100 as well as the k1766 for salt levels (the swg alone should not be relied upon for salt levels)
Many here add borates (Myself included)
Generally you should get ta where u want it before adding borates.
I add enough to get to 50ppm at the beginning of the season after getting my ta in the 60/70 range & then I leave it alone for the season.
I have not really noticed much difference in ph (it never moves) when my level of borates is below 30ppm vs 50ppm - this leads me to believe that my lowered ta is doing the bulk of the work (at least in my vinyl lined pool) I add them in the pool hoping to have all the help i can get w/ bugs here in the south
In my stand alone spa there’s a noticeable difference with -vs - without (I assume due to the large amount of aeration)
Here’s some good & handy info on borates as well

Borates in pool - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Happy Pooling!

 

[dcsmith]

Welcome to TFP! Good to have you here Sounds like a very nice pool.

Just the right advice from Marty above. You'll eventually find a level of TA that works for you, probably down around 50 to 70.

Adding your own "signature" will help you get the best answers. One question I had from your description is what sort of chlorine generator you have.

Pentair IC-60

 

[dcsmith]

Welcome
Glad u found TFP!
It sounds kinda like maybe you were on a little bit of a ph/ta merry go round
Just so u understand it’s not necessary -
Here’s some info on lowering TA safely & easily for future reference

Lower Total Alkalinity

A lower Total Alkalinity level can help a pool owner stabalize their pH increase. We'll explain how to lower TA with a little help from muriatic acid.

www.google.com

I’m sure the pool lab is simple to use & seems precise but digital results should always be confirmed every so often with a proper drop kit like the Taylor k2006 or tf100 as well as the k1766 for salt levels (the swg alone should not be relied upon for salt levels)
Many here add borates (Myself included)
Generally you should get ta where u want it before adding borates.
I add enough to get to 50ppm at the beginning of the season after getting my ta in the 60/70 range & then I leave it alone for the season.
I have not really noticed much difference in ph (it never moves) when my level of borates is below 30ppm vs 50ppm - this leads me to believe that my lowered ta is doing the bulk of the work (at least in my vinyl lined pool) I add them in the pool hoping to have all the help i can get w/ bugs here in the south
In my stand alone spa there’s a noticeable difference with -vs - without (I assume due to the large amount of aeration)
Here’s some good & handy info on borates as well

Borates in pool - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Happy Pooling!

My problem is not in "lowering" TA. It's the seesaw effect. Add baking soda to raise TA and it raises pH. Add Muriatic acid to lower pH and it lowers TA.

 

[mknauss]

Why are you raising TA?
See Recommended Levels

 

[Mdragger88]

My problem is not in "lowering" TA. It's the seesaw effect. Add baking soda to raise TA and it raises pH. Add Muriatic acid to lower pH and it lowers TA.

In the article it explains that you lower ph (& subsequently TA) with Muriatic acid & then you aerate to raise ph without raising ta. Then you can do it again & again until u get ta where u want it.
No baking soda, no see saw.
Baking soda = big ta change,small ph change
Borax= big ph change, small ta change
Washing soda= big ph change, big ta change
Aeration = ph change , no ta change

 

[dcsmith]

I have been struggling with getting both pH & TA in range. I understand that aeration (spillways (2)) will raise pH. If I add Muriatic acid to bring pH back in range, it also lowers my TA. This is what I have been "fighting".

 

[dcsmith]

Why are you raising TA?
See Recommended Levels

TA is currently 90 ppm. Recommended (Pinch-a-Penny) is pH: 7.4-7.6, TA: 80-120. My pH is currently 7.75. I need to add acid to bring it back in range.

 

[mknauss]

I understand that aeration (spillways (2)) will raise pH.

I suspect you have automation - though it is not shown in your signature. You can reduce the amount of spillway action dramatically using your automation.

 

[mknauss]

Recommended (Pinch-a-Penny)

If you wish to follow TFP - see Recommended Levels

 

[dcsmith]

I suspect you have automation - though it is not shown in your signature. You can reduce the amount of spillway action dramatically using your automation.

I'll update my signature.
As I am in central Florida and we are heading into Winter, I am running the filtration system for 6 hours per day. Of that 6 hours, 2 spillways run 3 hours and one runs 6 hours. During the time that one spillway is shut off, the water is re-directed to the floor cleaning system.
During the Summer months, I will run the system for 10 hours using the same 50/50 split. My objective is to filter the full 23,000 gallons twice during the Summer.

 

[mknauss]

With the Intellitouch, you can schedule a Spillover time such that you only run water through the spa for 20 or 30 minutes once or twice a day, just enough to exchange that water with the pool. If you have in floor cleaning in the spa, then only really need to run it for that each day, and no other.

Your pump run time is not needed to be based on 'turnover'. That is a myth. First you need to run the pump long enough to generate your chlorine, then if needed, longer for skimming or cleaning purposes.

 

[dcsmith]

I have been thinking of reprogramming the automation system to reduce the spillways runtime. I will research that process.
Are you saying a two times pool water turnover is not necessary during the Summer? This is what Pinch-a-Penny recommended and "I think" I have read somewhere.

 

[mknauss]

Are you saying a two times pool water turnover is not necessary during the Summer?

Turnover is a myth. Run the pump long enough to generate your chlorine and keep your pool skimmed.

Determine Pump Run Time

To figure out how many hours you need to run your pump, you need to know how fast your pump works. You can find this here.

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[dcsmith]

Turnover is a myth. Run the pump long enough to generate your chlorine and keep your pool skimmed.

Determine Pump Run Time

To figure out how many hours you need to run your pump, you need to know how fast your pump works. You can find this here.

www.troublefreepool.com

The Pentair pumps and Intellitouch system give me RPM, GPM, & Watts for each pump when they are running. This is how I have arrived at the total "Filtered" Gallons per Day results. I am currently running my SWCG at 10% to maintain FC during the Winter.

 

[dcsmith]

In the article it explains that you lower ph (& subsequently TA) with Muriatic acid & then you aerate to raise ph without raising ta. Then you can do it again & again until u get ta where u want it.
No baking soda, no see saw.
Baking soda = big ta change,small ph change
Borax= big ph change, small ta change
Washing soda= big ph change, big ta change
Aeration = ph change , no ta change

If my TA isn't within range (60-80), I have to add baking soda. This raises my pH above 7.8. What am I missing here?
I'm adding 3.5 lbs. of baking soda at a time after testing. A day later, I retest and add 2 qts. of Muriatic acid at a time after testing.
The TFP recommended levels are different than Pinch-a-Penny and Robert Lowry's book.
Pinch-a-Penny: pH 7.4-7.6, TA 80-120, Calcium Hardness 250-400.
The TFP level of Calcium Hardness also seems quite high for the SWCG and scaling.
Appreciate feedback.

 

[mknauss]

What am I missing here?

TA does not need to be controlled that closely. A minimum of 50 ppm TA is our recommendation.
If you wish to follow a pool store or other recommendations, it will be difficult to discuss things with you on this forum. This forum is for the TroubleFree Pool process. Not the others.