New Pool Plaster Issues (Cracking)

[ajw22]

Separate the facts that you know from speculation and determine what additional facts will help you will your decision making.

If you take a sample of the gunite and don't like the test results what can you do about it? At what cost?

Right now you do not know how deep the cracks are and if they are in the gunite and bond beam. To me that needs to be determined and I would not accept any plan until we know if we are dealing only with surface plaster and coping cracks or cracks in the shell and bond beam.

Once you know that then you either investigate further or develop a remediation and monitoring plan.

To fix settling may require piers like have done with this pool....

Need urgent help with cracking/leaking pool on a hillside in Austin, TX!

We did hire an engineer and he wants us to make a hole from the center of the pool to the bottom of the outside wall but I am not sure who I hire to do that?!? He said this will give us a good cross section of the construction thru the crack. ... Any ideas on who I would hire to make the hole...

www.troublefreepool.com

Or concrete staples may be required to repair. You only know once you dig into it and see the size and depth of the cracking.

Take things one step at a time. At this time you do not have a full understanding of the problem or the fix.

 

[JamesW]

It is 100% certain that the crack goes through the gunite and bond beam because a crack in the plaster won't travel through the tile and coping; that only happens if the gunite is cracked.

I would take a core sample through the crack and at several other places and have the core samples tested for strength.

I would also have an elevation survey done to establish a baseline reference for future elevation surveys.

If more cracks develop or the existing cracks propagate, I would get a professional evaluation from a structural or geotechnical engineer to see what they recommend.

 

[JamesW]

In my opinion, staples won't do anything worthwhile.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

All you can do at this point is work with the builder and hold them accountable. You are absolutely spot-on at this point to request EVERYTHING in writing and to start logging as much data as you can. The more accurate a timeline you can keep, the more power to you. Make sure everything is in writing and even on site visits you should follow up with an email transcript of everything that was discussed and send copies to the builder. Try to make sure they acknowledge receipt of anything you send to them either via email or postal mail. Certified mail with a return receipt is a standard way of ensuring that written communications are sent and received.

The builder can propose any solution they like so it’s up to you to do your homework and make sure that anything they do is documented and there are a set of agreed upon outcomes, “ie, wait one month to see what happens.” Is too open ended. There needs to be specifics of why you’re looking for.

Definitely take your time and hold them accountable. If this should turn into a legal action, and I’m not saying it should, then documentation is key.

Also you’re in Nevada so local contractor and consumer protection laws are important. @Dirk had to take some legal action associates with his pool so he may be able to offer a brief outline of how he handled it. It was in CA so the laws are different there but he may be able to briefly offer you some tips and pitfalls to avoid.

 

[MAPR-Austin]

In my opinion, staples won't do anything worthwhile.

This has always been my opinion as well, but I have very little first hand experience with them.

Do you think there are any crack repair methods that are worthwhile?

 

[JamesW]

Do you think there are any crack repair methods that are worthwhile?

Assuming no settling induced tension, maybe epoxy injection to stabilize the crack.

If there is settling induced tension, then there is no simple or inexpensive repair that will work.

You have to address the source of tension, which is usually settling.

There is always some stress in the concrete due to the weight of concrete, water and earth as well as thermal expansion and contraction.

If the pool is cracking with no settling, the concrete is defective in some way like strength, placement, mix, thickness, rebar coverage etc.

Most concrete strength is given in psi compressive strength, but it is tensile strength that matters for most cracking.

Tensile strength is always lower than compressive strength, but tensile strength typically follows compressive strength.

Higher compressive strength typically means higher tensile strength.

 

[ajw22]

This has always been my opinion as well, but I have very little first hand experience with them.

Do you think there are any crack repair methods that are worthwhile?

Not to hijack this thread with a deep dive into repair methods but I think the repair method depends on the root cause of the cracking.

Staples may stabilize the structure where insufficient rebar was used. Or where cracks were caused by earthquakes.

Staples are not going to fix the root cause of cracking from unstable or shifting ground and settling.

 

[Dirk]

All you can do at this point is work with the builder and hold them accountable. You are absolutely spot-on at this point to request EVERYTHING in writing and to start logging as much data as you can. The more accurate a timeline you can keep, the more power to you. Make sure everything is in writing and even on site visits you should follow up with an email transcript of everything that was discussed and send copies to the builder. Try to make sure they acknowledge receipt of anything you send to them either via email or postal mail. Certified mail with a return receipt is a standard way of ensuring that written communications are sent and received.

The builder can propose any solution they like so it’s up to you to do your homework and make sure that anything they do is documented and there are a set of agreed upon outcomes, “ie, wait one month to see what happens.” Is too open ended. There needs to be specifics of why you’re looking for.

Definitely take your time and hold them accountable. If this should turn into a legal action, and I’m not saying it should, then documentation is key.

Also you’re in Nevada so local contractor and consumer protection laws are important. @Dirk had to take some legal action associates with his pool so he may be able to offer a brief outline of how he handled it. It was in CA so the laws are different there but he may be able to briefly offer you some tips and pitfalls to avoid.

Matt has given you all the pertinent steps at this point. Follow that advice to the letter. At the same time, do what you can to stay on good terms with the builder. And by that I don't mean playing too nice, just don't go ballistic just yet. Be firm. Be very clear on your expectations. Just don't get emotional. That can be hard to do, but it's imperative. When you write him, finish the letter, then sit on it for hours or a day. Reread it, edit out anything that isn't matter of fact, then send it. These letters are not the vehicle by which you express concern, or fairness, or disappointment, or anger, or anything of that nature (and believe me, it will be tempting to do any and all of that at times). My MO was to hand my letters to a friend, who happened to be a CA contractor, and he would edit out all that crud for me. They usually came back about 30% of what I wrote! Anyway, you get the idea.

Document everything, communicate in writing exclusively if you can, or follow up verbal conversations with emails, as Matt describes. Verify receipt of everything. The FIRST time he doesn't respond to an email verifying receipt, is the LAST email you send. Nothing but certified mail after that.

Don't play the "I'll sue you!" card yet. The letters will send that message loud and clear. Again, stay on his good side if you can, if he has one. Sometimes the best solution is the original builder making things right, and you don't want to get his hackles up. I will just add: I followed all my own advice, but I was very much hoping the original contractor would flake. He destroyed my pool via incompetence, why would I want him to come back and "fix" it. That's something to consider as you work through your options. The time I gave him to comply expired, I had the pool repaired by someone else, then started the legal process. We never made it to court, he actually ponied up the cost of the repair (more on how I did that some other time).

If a legal solution is all that remains at some point, then I can offer some advice, or at least relay what worked for me. But it took me a long time, so be patient, prepare for a long haul and some stress, and just hope that neither is too much.

 

[meow_meow]

The builder can propose any solution they like so it’s up to you to do your homework and make sure that anything they do is documented and there are a set of agreed upon outcomes, “ie, wait one month to see what happens.” Is too open ended. There needs to be specifics of why you’re looking for.

Just a couple of clarifying questions: hypothetically, let’s say the builder takes (or wants to take) an easy course of action for this issue and doesn’t make a determination that there are cracks to the shell and beam. Does that leave me to their mercy then? What recourse could I have?

With respect to the last sentence, did you mean to say “what” vs “why”? And are you saying I need to be specific in my requests to the builder about what I am looking for?

Thank you.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Just a couple of clarifying questions: hypothetically, let’s say the builder takes (or wants to take) an easy course of action for this issue and doesn’t make a determination that there are cracks to the shell and beam. Does that leave me to their mercy then? What recourse could I have?

With respect to the last sentence, did you mean to say “what” vs “why”? And are you saying I need to be specific in my requests to the builder about what I am looking for?

Thank you.

I did mean to type "what" instead of "why" ... fat fingers and mobile app keyboards are a bad combo ...

If the builder wants to take the "keep pushing them off until they get frustrated and go away" route and you can't convince him to get to the bottom of the cracking then, in writing, I would say you should propose bringing in a neutral 3rd party inspector to look at the pool. I'm not sure what's available in Nevada but, here in Arizona, one could request that the Arizona Registry of Contractors sends out an expert to look at the situation. You could also ask to have the gunite and plaster subcontractors come out and look at it as well. Then you can propose that the coping, tile and plaster should be removed in the area to determine if the crack has gone through the shell (which I think a lot of us would say that it has). Ultimately the gunite subcontractor who shot the shell is on the hook for warranty repairs and he's not going to be happy. He's going to want to get to the bottom of it to limit his exposure and the sooner he can say that he did his part in the process to fix the situation, the happier he will be. Nothing would be more of nightmare than having a job come back years later with a wrecked pool shell and being in the line of fire for fixing it. The plaster sub can easily remove and replace the plaster but you need to understand that it will look ugly because plaster patching is never perfect. Tile and coping isn't a technically challenging fix.

But definitely do not propose any fixes of your own. Your job in all of this is to get to the bottom of the failure and let the so-called "experts" figure out how they are going to make it right. Because, if it ever comes to a legal battle, and I hope it doesn't, you don't want to be in a court room where the contractor is saying that you forced him to do all these repairs that wouldn't work. You want him on the defensive by saying that you gave the contractor ample time and space to fix the problem but he was incompetent and did not make it right. Then the judgement is all on him.

 

[Dirk]

Matt's advice dovetails with some good advice I got from my contractor buddy who was coaching me during my ordeal. He warned me to say (or write) as little as possible. And if I needed to communicate something, do so only in the form of a question. This eliminates the possibility that any action taken can be turned back on you (which is why you want everything in writing). Like instead of saying "We need to remove the coping to check for structural damage!" You'd ask "Gee, what's the best way to determine if the shell is cracked underneath?" or if you want a little more steerage you could go as far as "Do we need to remove some coping to inspect the shell?" There's little difference in the message, but a substantial difference in the liability. Just let them talk. Or just ask questions. This also gives the contractor the illusion that he is in control, and that you still respect him as the expert. Setting aside your emotions and your ego, and playing to his, will get you better results than trying to bully or control him.

If that happens in a conversation at the pool, you'd then write a followup email or letter:

"On March 15, 2023, we met at the pool to discuss options for repair of blah, blah, blah. I asked you what is the best way to determine if the shell is cracked underneath, and you replied that you'd need to remove three linear feet of the coping and inspect the shell directly underneath. You set the appointment to do so on March 18, 2023.

Like that.

Being prepared with at least some of the questions will help you stay on track. Don't wing it if you don't have to. Having someone else present to take notes can go a long way, because the conversations will be fast and furious. And they'll double as a witness. If things heat up, or you get a little flustered with the direction the conversation is going, just excuse yourself and take a quick break to regroup: "Hang on, I gotta check on my blah, blah. Sorry. Be back in a sec. Come back when you're ready to proceed.

Little tricks to keep you in charge without them knowing you are.

 

[wireform]

Update: Our rep from the pool company came out (same guy we’ve dealt with thru plans to now) this morning.

Doing a bucket leak test. Will go from there.

I'll just throw this in as as I haven't seen any mention of it. I hope the bucket test was performed with the auto fill shut off if you have one otherwise you may be losing water and never know it. Your water consumption via the meter may also tell the story.

 

[meow_meow]

I'll just throw this in as as I haven't seen any mention of it. I hope the bucket test was performed with the auto fill shut off if you have one otherwise you may be losing water and never know it. Your water consumption via the meter may also tell the story.

It was done with the auto fill off. But thank u for mentioning it.

 

[kimkats]

I am following along to learn and see what ends up happening. Hoping it goes the right way for you!

 

[meow_meow]

@JoyfulNoise & @JamesW, I sent you both PM’s - I’d appreciate if you could take a peek at them some time. Thx.

 

[meow_meow]

Some updates:

I feel we are at a bit of a stalemate. Builder is proposing to chip out the plaster and repair the crack. They have stated they are not worried about further issues due to the depth of the crack (we obviously are). They have stated that if there is a crack to the shell, it will be apparent went they go to do the repair and expose the shell at the plaster area. Also, they stated they will fix the grout at the same time as the plaster.

They are not committing right now removing the tiling and the coping as they can’t tell us what further repairs will be needed until the plaster is inspected and repaired.

Unsure where to go from here.

 

[ajw22]

Let the builder chip out around the crack and then assess what is found.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I would insist that you want the plaster chipped out and the shell inspected and no repair work will be conducted without your approval and the work will not be performed until you visually see evidence of the condition of the shell. In other words - trust them to do the work but verify everything.

 

[meow_meow]

I would insist that you want the plaster chipped out and the shell inspected and no repair work will be conducted without your approval and the work will not be performed until you visually see evidence of the condition of the shell. In other words - trust them to do the work but verify everything.

Should we let go having the tile remove and the coping at this juncture and just allow them to move forward with chipping out the plaster? What are the chances there would NOT be a crack at the plaster area where that crack is but there would be at the top (bond beam area where tile and underneath coping is)?

And yes, we will be there for the repairs. Going to take photo and video as well.

 

[kimkats]

One step at a time............first step being taking the plaster out. Now to make sure of this. They are chipping out ALL of the plaster correct? NOT just where the crack is?