New Pool Owner in Mesa, AZ

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I certainly would NOT use it. Intentionally putting copper in the water - or any other metal for that matter - will lead to issues down the road. And those issues will cause additional costs and headaches. Who was it that told Rusty this?

As a reference, my pool is approximately the same capacity as yours. I lose +/- 2 ppm chlorine a day without anyone using the pool - even in our present 105* heat. Pool get full sun until mid afternoon, then partial sun.

Something is still causing your large daytime differences. May be time to have a look around and in the pool to see if anything looks out of place. Clean the back of the weir plate (skimmer flapper door) - stuff can hide back there too. Open the strainer baskets and clean out any little debris - even though there might not be anything in there, open them. Open any and all covers in the deck around the poll and look in there too.

Double check you are correctly doing the chlorine drop tests. The quantity of the water is very important, even being 1 ml off can muck things up. Read the extended testing instructions to verify your testing methods.

In a post early on, you stated the CYA was 58. Where did that number come from? Could have been a mis-type. And, if it was between 50 and 60 - always round up. The test has an error ratio of +/- 10 I believe - and the outcome is quite subjective. It's the most difficult test for most people.

Lots of variables here - and a small number of inconsistencies. Just hang in there and be as consistent in your testing as possible.
 
Does your pool have one of these? It's like a leaf canister hooked to your main drains and works in conjuction with your in-floor system.

Debris Containment Canister - Paramount Pool and Spas

If so, be sure it is cleaned out too.

Just trying to think of anything that could be causing these continued issues.
 
Okay, Rusty estimates that the lemon tree is about 15 feet away from the pool (from the trunk and the branches probably hang out about 4 feet closer) behind the two palm trees. Then there are the two palm trees and I don't know exactly what type of Palm tree they are. The one palm tree has something that looks like dates growing on it, but Rusty keeps those cut off and keeps most of the branches cut back, however, some do overhang the pool. The entire area on that side of the pool is dirt covered with some type of rocks/gravel. Someday, when we can afford it, we'd like to change that to some kind of concrete, pavers, or flagstone and get rid of the trees which are too close to the pool (maybe 2 feet from the edge). We'd like to be able to walk around the entire pool and have some lounge chairs over there, so if the consensus of the experts comes back to say the trees have to go, at least the palms, we would dig them up. We don't really think anything from the lemon tree is getting in the pool. At least we don't ever see any leaves or evidence of that happening. Also, I don't know if this would affect it, but there are always ants crawling around the edge of the pool. If anyone has a solution for that problem, let us know.

What really seems to bother Rusty is the fact that the areas that we cleaned out, like the light niche and water supply area didn't even have anything obvious looking like algae, just basically brown dirt has been coming out of those areas. We don't see anything looking like algae in the pool anymore. We saw quite a bit of it when we started, but that was gone a long time ago. Rusty just asked, Could it be in the filter, because it's the only thing he can't see into? The vacuum is brand new. The hose is old and he hoses it out every time he uses it, inside and outside, and has even left it in the pool overnight the last time he used it so it should be clean. The only thing he hasn't been able to check is inside the filter which is only about two years old. We had a leak in our pipes a few months ago. When the guy repaired them, the old pipes were clean inside.

We will take a water sample to the pool store tomorrow and have them run every test they can run on it and report those results on here tomorrow.

Something has to be going on. This thing has been eating chlorine since May. Before we found this website rusty was checking the chlorine level morning and night. Almost every check came up zero no matter how much he added. He was using the powdered shock back then, many different brands, all the same zero results until we put in the pool Rx. And the floater with tablets was in there.

Well, you guys have a wonderful night! Hopefully someone can come up with some answers for us. I haven't asked in a while, I'm wondering how your recovery from the surgery is going? Hope all is well!
 
Thanks for the info. I agree something has to be going on for sure, and we will continue to try to find out what that something is. The stuff that's been coming from behind the light, supply area etc. with the high rises in CC levels, and drastic drops in FC immediately after the clean outs tells us it is algae/organics that is being removed.

The Pool RX adds copper, silver, and zinc to your water, none of which are needed in there at all, and they can cause you more problems down the line as mentioned in my above comment.
Here's a good thread about it, and there are several more threads on here in regards to it, none that speak favorably about it though. http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/17858-Is-Poolrx-for-real

To answer your question, I'm doing fine recovering from the big #35, but lol I'm seriously getting way to old for too many more for sure. :) You guys have a good night. :)
 
10:00pm FC 20, down only 1 in 4 hours 15 minutes CC 1.5

Glad to hear you are doing fine.

The 58 CYA level was probably because we didn't round up. It was done a while ago and was our first time so I'm guessing that we didn't know to round up. Rusty said he's already checked everything he can check in the pool other than the sand filter inside. We do not have one of those debris containment cannisters from the link you gave us.
 
Ok thank you guys. Yeah I rounded up for you on the start but then the recheck you were a little lower on the CYA so we adjusted the shock level to compensate from the change. Those levels are just crazy, the FC is down just 1 again, but now the CC is up higher uggg lol. Now in the morn it will be down like 5, 7 , 9 overnight, and the CC will be 1 or .5 again, LOL If we could get both levels to cooperate at the same time we might get er done. LOL you guys have a good one.
 
I highly doubt the citrus tree is causing you any issues right now. I have a few that are a bit further away - they do drop a couple leaves now and then, but nothing else this tiime of year. Of course, in the spring they will drop spent blooms/flowers - but I haven't found that to be much of an issue as long as you keep the pool fairly clean and the baskets emptied.

The palm I can see in one of your pics might be a pineapple palm. As long as you make an effort to keep most of the fruit/date shoots trimmed off it shouldn't be a problem either.

As for the ants, try to find out where they are coming from - and treat at the source, if possible. Most of the insecticide Rusty can get at "the depot" will work as a spot killer. Try not to get any in the pool though (not sure if it will affect the pool, but I'd rather not find out).
 
Good morning everyone. Not good on our numbers!

FC 15, down 5 overnight, bumping back up to 23.
CC 2

Rusty has been treating for ants ever since we moved in. They are everywhere in our yard. Only in the last couple of weeks has he not treated with any chemicals because we haven't had the money to buy the insecticide, spending it all on chlorine...lol, but not really funny anymore! He works at Home Depot and came home with something recommended by a coworker that was supposed to treat the yard and keep them away for six months. It did work , but just for a few weeks. He has followed the ant trail and it leads to a hole at the bottom of our concrete block fence and they come from our neighbors yard. He treated that hole and they started coming in at another spot, he treated that spot, and so on and so on until they started coming up and over the wall. They are determined little pests! He has even taken chlorine and poured it down some of the anthills. They just keep on coming!

We are going to take in water samples for testing today and will report the results when we get back.
 
Dang - you do have a persistent issue with chlorine usage. Has Rusty checked the back side of the weir plate at the skimmer. Usually it's a plastic piece with a slot for some styrofoam for floatation. My daughters had nasty green stuff back there when she had her algae problem.

As for the ants, if there aren't any plants/trees within a few feet of where the ants are coming from, dump a little bleach on the spot - just make sure its on the rocks (granite) or bare dirt and not on the concrete, pavers, wall, etc. The chlorine will dissipate in a few days. And maybe ask the neighbor to treat for ants too.
 
Hi Bonnie, What exactly was he treating the ants with if you can give me the name I'll look up the ingredients to see if that might have been affecting you guys being able to resolve this issue in anyway because there is something not right. You guys should have been done Slamming, and been able to pass OCLT fairly quickly a long time ago, but for some reason we are still battling this roller coaster, and I'm at an exact loss as to why? Aside from testing errors, calculation/add errors, etc. something just isn't panning out like it should. Just when we start to see the numbers doing like we would expect them too then BAM the high FC drops start again, and the CC also increases, not a little but a significant amount too which appears to tell us more algae or organics was again located in there. So like I said I'm going to consult the Experts on this one, and see if they can find what is being missed. I'm going to wait until after you get the metals results, so we can have a full picture of everything that is in there right now to go off of. Have a wonderful day. :)

EDIT: Bonnie one more thing you guys can do if you want to try it to help rule out the testing errors issue would be to get a 5ml syringe or something with a 5 ml measurement on it from the pharmacy, and use 5ml water samples, instead of 10ml, you will add 1 scoop of powder to 5 ml of pool water, and then EACH drop will count as 1, instead of .5.

If you do it this way though Be Sure and use a syringe or something to ensure you are testing with the same amount of water each time. We've attempted to rule out Everything over and over again and yet still an issue remains, so we've got to get it figured out so you guys can hopefully get done soon, and be able to enjoy your pool without all the hassles. I hope this helps, and you guys have a wonderful day. :)
 
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He hasn't treated the ants for a couple of months other than pouring chlorine in a couple of ant hills. If you walk around our yard, you can see ants crawling around everywhere. When we get paid at the end of this week we are going to get some more stuff to spray around the perimeter of the house and yard and treat the yard again with the stuff that was supposed to last for six months but only lasted a few weeks. I won't know the name of it until we buy some more.

okay, now for the pool store results. We went to both Leslie's and NPS with samples and I'll post their results below along with telling you their recommendations.

Leslies:

FAC 6
TAC 6
CH 560
CYA 150
TA 120
pH. 8
Acid. 4
Copper 0
Iron 0
TDS 3300
Pho 200

They recommended draining half of the pool because of calcium hardness. Because of the hardness they said we could drain and use, or even just use without draining a product by Natural Energy called Purge. It is supposed to circulate through the lines and get rid of enzyme build up in there. He said the enzyme build up will cause chlorine loss. He said purge can be used with or without draining the pool. He said there are no metals in the pool.

NPS:

TC 10
FC 9.7
pH 8.3
TA 95
CH 600
Stabilizer 75
TDS 4700
Pho 500

he said to get the Pool Rx back in there right away, that it will get rid of algae and help prevent chlorine loss. Add 4 cups acid and 1/4 bottle of Phos Free. He recommended draining the pool and after refill, bringing in a water sample to test before adding anything back into the pool. He recommended draining at the end of the season. He went on and on about how we have to have tablets in the pool and the pool Rx to keep the pool from losing chlorine. He said liquid chlorine will disappear quickly every time you add it. He kept saying that liquid chlorine alone is not enough.
 
Gene, Rusty looked behind the weir plate this morning and it was totally clean.

if we get a syringe to do the test with 5 ml, do we put in 1 heaping spoon of powder like we do for the 10 ml test, or is it a level scoop? Then, we count the drops, but don't divide by 2 like we do for the 10 ml test, correct?

it seems crazy that all of a sudden there might be errors in testing when the numbers seemed to be making sense in the beginning of the slam, especially since all but two or three of the tests (about a week ago) have been done by the same person. I guess anything is possible though. Also, you don't realize that for us nothing ever works out the same as it does for other people... Remember, we have Murphy for our guardian angel...lol

1:15 pm FC 20, down 3 in 5 hours 15 minutes.

Do any of the pool store tests give any clues to what might be going on?
 
Hi Bonnie,

The change in testing was just a suggestion. (I suspect, in your comment above, you meant multiply the drops by 0.5, Not divide by 2 on the 10ml testing, didn't you? The drops on the 10ml water sample are to be multiplied by 0.5, not divided by 2 (have you all been doing this correctly?) By your numbers it appears that you have, and perhaps just stated it incorrectly in your comment, but I want to be certain.

Here is a link for all the Extended test directions The Fas DPD directions are in comment #4 of this link. http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/24188-Extended-Test-Kit-Directions

But to answer your questions, If you decide to try to use the 5ml water sample test instead of the 10ml, which you don't have to as long as you are sure there are no discrepancies in the testing (Like dividing, instead of multiplying etc.)that could explain the drastic changes in the numbers. You would use a level scoop of the powder- as long as the color is a nice med pink color the test will be fine. I agree the testing may not be the issue, but I thought this might in fact rule that aspect out too because something is causing you guys to not achieve your goal, and we need to figure out what exactly that is.

One thing I see on their test that could be an issue for sure (If it is accurate, which I suspect it is not). I trust them for testing the metals fairly well, but the other levels not so much. (As you can see the differences between the 2 stores readings using the same pool water).
The CYA in one test is 150, the other 75. But I would trust Your testing with your test kit over their testing on that any day. So please recheck the CYA levels you've reported to us to ensure they are correct because If your CYA is high like 150 then there is no way you will be able to maintain your pool, and yes if that is the case and it is 150 a partial drain and refill would in fact be needed to lower the CH and the CYA level too. Odds are you're CH is high because the powder you were adding was calcium Hypo, but I have seen CH levels higher without incidence. The thing with the CH that you must watch for is scaling on your pool walls, and in your equipment.

I disagree that you can't manage your pool using liquid bleach, as the PS claims, and that you'll need pucks, or the Pool Rx being in there in order to do it. We have people living in your area who does it on a daily basis, and has no issues with using chlorine bleach, or pool management, or recurring algae issues. The same people have, however, had a lot of issues with the powdered shocks, pucks, etc. because of the bad stuff they add to their pools. I suspect Gene is probably one of them who maintains his pool with liquid bleach too, so perhaps he can elaborate more on that aspect as well.

I will post all this for our Experts to look over and see what they have to say. I'm glad to hear there are no metals in there that can cause you additional issues, but now we've got to determine what it is that continues to cause you your current issue. Have a wonderful day, and I'll report back on what I find out. :)
 
@ CJ
Uhmmm... dividing by 2 is the same as multiplying by 0.5 (1/2). Just sayin'....
That high relative humidity in KY or too much partying is starting to affect your math a bit there CJ. :p:p:p

@ Bonnie
The margin of error probably goes UP with a smaller sample size. Personally, I'd stay with the 10 ml sample size for the FAS-DPD chlorine test. Extended directions in post #4 of the link in CJ's post above. If you do choose to use only a 5 ml sample, just don't make the heap as large on the spoon - but it should be well rounded - and no multiplication or division is necessary (in 5ml FAS-DPD one drop of R-0871 equals one ppm). The syringe is a great idea - and you can use it for the 10 ml sample as well. Just check the reading on the vial after adding the water from the syringe to see if they match. Pay special attention to the "meniscus" that is mentioned in the extended test instructions.

Two things that the pool store tests do show: 1) BOTH stores were inconsistent to one another, 2) They were also way off from your testing.
So, the point here is - BELIEVE IN YOUR TESTING. Give yourselves a pat on the back for being way more consistent in your results than two different pool stores.
What a major failure on their part.... :drown: And the one store's insistence that you have to use chlorine tablets and the Pool RX are ridiculous at best. As you well know, your FC is well above the test results from either store - their testing probably only goes up to 10 ppm.

:testkit::testkit::testkit:

Our water here in AZ is pretty hard. Mine comes out of the tap at around 250 ppm CH (some times of the year it's higher than that). Do to the evaporation in our dry climate, CH will continue to rise as the water evaporates. Mine is over 400 right now and I started with fresh water in February (my CYA was over 120 - I hadn't started using the TFP method yet - :crazy:). Several folks on this site are managing their pools with CH around 800 or more with no major issues. It's all about water and chemical balance. But don't worry about that right now - first thing is to get past this SLAM.

Good that there are no metals in the pool water and that Rusty verified the weir plate is clean!

Hopefully the experts that CJ is summoning will be able to shed some light on your situation.
 
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LOL Bonnie and Gene you are correct on them being the same. LOL OH what a day sorry, someone kill me Please. LOL. :hammer:

I am writing them the Thread now so I'll get back to you in a bit. You both have a nice day and yes please do try to keep me straight on the Nots and Gazentas sp? as Jethro on the Beverly Hillbillies calls them LOL.
 
Rusty is wondering if he needs to do anything about the PH levels? Both stores said it was high. He just tested it with our basic kit. The color doesn't match any of the colors on the strip but looks like a darker shade of the 7.5 (quit a bit darker, but not at all similar in color to the next number up), so maybe 7.7?
 
Chlorine levels above 10 will give you a false PH reading. I'd leave it alone until CJ has more info from the experts. A day or two more shouldn't hurt anything.
 
No Bonnie no need to adjust it. Gene is correct, With the Fc higher than 10ppm it will read as high, that's why we have you adjust the pH level prior to beginning because of the false high reading you get once the FC gets above 10ppm. We will have you retest it once you get below 10ppm and adjust then if needed. Not to worry. Let Rusty know about the false high readings too so he's not worried about it. :) I did get my message in to the Experts for their advice on this too, so as soon as I hear something back I'll let you know what they say. Have a wonderful day.
 
Just briefly skimmed this thread and would like to start with some simple items to catch us all back up. Can you please post a full set of test results from your tf100 as well as a photo of the water. From there we can start to catch everybody up and figure out why this is occurring.
 

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