New Hot Tub help needed

[Blessedwithfivekids]

Hi Friends,
I have an ingroundpool that I have been using TFP for years without any problems. Just for fun, we decided to buy a spa because the pool was so easy. The spa is not so easy.

It is three weeks old. I purged it (Aaasome) and have been using it alot for a few weeks but the chems are all over the place. Started to SLAM it yesterday.
Here are the readings:
11:00 FC 6.5
CC .5 Added 2.8 oz chlorine to get to 12 level
1:00 FC 4.0
CC 1.5 Added 4.5 oz chlorine
2:15 FC 5.5
CC 1.5 Added 3.7 oz chlorine
3:15 FC 8.0
CC 2.5 Added 2.2 oz chlorine
4:15 FC 8.0
CC 1.5 Added 2.2 oz chlorine
11:00pm FC 9.5
CC 1.0 Added 2.5 oz chlorine
6:00 am FC 8.5
CC 1.5 Added 2.0 chlorine
7:30 FC 8.5
CC 1.0 Added 2.0 oz chlorine
8:45 FC 15
CC 1.5
Did nothing...what is next?

The spa is a new A8 Bullfrog with the FROG system...550 gallons...

Thanks all...you were great helping with the pool...no problems for YEARS now.

Sandy

 

[Cfyfe3199]

Will be following, I had a party in my brand new hot tub and the next few days i just could not get the water straightened out. Did an ahh-some purge and drained. Today I'm refilling and taking my time getting it right. I admit I rushed it the first fill just to get it running for a party we had.

 

[Cfyfe3199]

Hi Friends,
I have an ingroundpool that I have been using TFP for years without any problems. Just for fun, we decided to buy a spa because the pool was so easy. The spa is not so easy.

It is three weeks old. I purged it (Aaasome) and have been using it alot for a few weeks but the chems are all over the place. Started to SLAM it yesterday.
Here are the readings:
11:00 FC 6.5
CC .5 Added 2.8 oz chlorine to get to 12 level
1:00 FC 4.0
CC 1.5 Added 4.5 oz chlorine
2:15 FC 5.5
CC 1.5 Added 3.7 oz chlorine
3:15 FC 8.0
CC 2.5 Added 2.2 oz chlorine
4:15 FC 8.0
CC 1.5 Added 2.2 oz chlorine
11:00pm FC 9.5
CC 1.0 Added 2.5 oz chlorine
6:00 am FC 8.5
CC 1.5 Added 2.0 chlorine
7:30 FC 8.5
CC 1.0 Added 2.0 oz chlorine
8:45 FC 15
CC 1.5
Did nothing...what is next?

The spa is a new A8 Bullfrog with the FROG system...550 gallons...

Thanks all...you were great helping with the pool...no problems for YEARS now.

Sandy

Any luck? I’m having the exact same problem as you. Tub is eating chlorine like crazy with almost no usage after a purge and fresh fill

 

[BravoRomeo]

The spa is a new A8 Bullfrog with the FROG system...550 gallons...

As in the Frog SmartChlor system? Bullfrog is including that with all new US tubs. King Technology (maker of Frog) warns that SmartChlor will show up as elevated Combined Chlorine on tests.

I haven’t received my new Bullfrog A5L, but have been researching this SmartChlor system they recommend.

From what I understand, if you want to stick to TFP approach, ditch the Frog. If you want to keep the Frog (or just use up the included cartridges) ignore the CC reading.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Yes. I have a new spa and can confirm this is the case with anything but the Frog strips. I will be switching to Bromine when I drain the tub. It might be sooner than three months because the water still smells like PVC glue.

 

[Blessedwithfivekids]

UGH....I wish I had read this earlier. Tub looks great but CC's kept coming up. I will stop taking that test and ditch the frog system once I finish this cartridge. What should I do then? Use pucks in a floater? I am not worried about CYA because we drain and refill every few months...I have never used pucks as I have a SWG in the pool

 

[BravoRomeo]

UGH....I wish I had read this earlier. Tub looks great but CC's kept coming up. I will stop taking that test and ditch the frog system once I finish this cartridge. What should I do then? Use pucks in a floater? I am not worried about CYA because we drain and refill every few months...I have never used pucks as I have a SWG in the pool

Wait a sec... you say the tub looks great, and the only problem is high CC's that keep coming up? There's no foul odor or cloudiness?

A false high reading of CC's is completely normal on Frog @ease SmartChlor. Mine shows CC's between 7 and 10 ppm, and that is the "SmartChlor reserve" that can release free chlorine as needed. From experience, I know that if CC's were actually that high in my tub, it would be irritating and stink.

I would suggest using up your SmartChlor cartridge supply, and stop worrying about the false high CC's.

Near the end of the included supply, consider your options going forward:

1. Dichlor-only (not recommended)
2. Dichlor-then-Bleach
3. Dichlor-then-SWG
4. Frog @ease
5. Bromine
6. Nature2+MPS.

(not in any particular order, but I have tried the first 4)

You can read about my experience and testing of Frog @ease SmartChlor system:
Jumping back in: Bullfrog A5L with SmartChlor

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

That Frog system makes it really hard to ensure it has the proper amount of chlorine in the spa, IMHO. And I also believe their recommended levels aren't enough for safety even with the "minerals". I have medical conditions that make it so I do not want to risk it, so I add about a half cup of 10% liquid chlorine every time I use the spa and and occasionally when I don't. The Frog works (because of the three month water changes) but is very expensive for what it is. But I can verify the silver whatever in it ruins the readings on the standard test kits. You have to use their strips, which for strips are actually pretty good, but are expensive. The floater is nice, needed for me since I don't want to tend to it every day.

I'm switching to Bromine and about a month when I have to refill. It's about $15 for three months from the stuff from Wal-Mart, I can sill use bleach to oxidize, and it will still have the same convenience as the $90 Frog.

 

[BravoRomeo]

That Frog system makes it really hard to ensure it has the proper amount of chlorine in the spa, IMHO. And I also believe their recommended levels aren't enough for safety even with the "minerals". I have medical conditions that make it so I do not want to risk it, so I add about a half cup of 10% liquid chlorine every time I use the spa and and occasionally when I don't.

The constant 0.5 - 1 PPM free chlorine is without much CYA buffering at all (perhaps 4 PPM CYA from the initial Jump Start packet). Every time I have tested my FC, it's been rock steady at just above 0.5, even immediately after a long, two-person soak. Based on this post I'm personally satisfied this low level of chlorine is OK, as long as it doesn't fall below that level. I suspect the silver-ion cartridge is more "fallback" insurance, but perhaps there is a synergistic effect as there is with Nature2 + MPS at hot-tub temperatures. I'm not qualified to assess that, though.

Adding extra chlorine is an interesting choice; in 245 gallons, 4 oz of 10% beach is 13 ppm FC. With no significant CYA to buffer it?

The Frog works (because of the three month water changes) but is very expensive for what it is. But I can verify the silver whatever in it ruins the readings on the standard test kits. You have to use their strips, which for strips are actually pretty good, but are expensive. The floater is nice, needed for me since I don't want to tend to it every day.

I think the Frog @ease system works more due to the unconventional (for pools/spas) source of chlorine. The slow-disolving SmartChlor active ingredient is more commonly used for certain brands of toilet tank tabs. The nature of the "SmartChlor Reserve" is what reads as false CC's. As to the mineral cartridge side, I don't think there's an affordable test to measure the silver-ion level, but would love to know of one... much like trying to test for ozone generator output.

Agree, their @ease test strips are better than some I've used in the past. The results follow along coarsely with my TF-100 kit, however instead of FC or TC, there is just one cyan patch for "SmartChlor Out" indicator. No "mineral out" indicator either.

Aside from trusting that the @ease system is working, I do find it a bit discouraging that I can't test the level of silver-ion, and that there is no easy way to distinguish between truly undesirable CC's and the desired SmartChlor Reserve. That which you cannot test for, you cannot control... so there's that trust thing.

I think their water replacement interval is conservative. Same goes for their "only have to shock once a month" recommendation... why even shock at all if you are keeping on top of everything as in the TFP method? I only ever had to shock when running dichlor/bleach/SWG if the FC had crashed to 0 for any significant time.

I'm switching to Bromine and about a month when I have to refill. It's about $15 for three months from the stuff from Wal-Mart, I can sill use bleach to oxidize, and it will still have the same convenience as the $90 Frog.

Yeah, that's my concern. Cost. Frog @ease looks to be about $80-90 for a three-month supply. On top of that, the Bullfrog version is only available through Bullfrog dealers, which is not exactly convenient. Seems like this is the Keurig of hot tub sanitization. For many, apparently the convenience is well worth the cost, even if you can make a pot of coffee / sanitize your tub for a fraction of the cost of pods / cartridges.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

The bleach the next day tends to read just slightly above the level on the Frog strips (a little darker green) if I hadn't been using it at all even when I do use a half cup. I should probably say I do no more than a half a cup... usually I do a 1/4 but since at most I've been using the tub every other day and lately, for the last couple of weeks about every fourth day then I assure you the FC level is back down again. The higher temperatures seem to nuke the chlorine fast, and in Arizona in July, even with the heater off (turned down to 90F which is off), I tend to have to let the spa cool off a bit to use it (usually 106 to 110F when I open it). And no, with the yard torn up the cover isn't going to stay off except when I am with it or in it.

I suppose I'm not afraid of the higher chlorine levels anyway, and I never have any chloramine smell. Water seems great. It's in a new tub and I think the PVC glue smell in the water is almost gone. I almost changed it early to get rid if it. I also have this issue now that we are building an in ground pool that a lot more dust is ending up in it, so running the chlorine high I think will be a thing for the next several months, or at least until I drain and switch to Bromine. I haven't attempted to measure CYA, but if you look at the chemical pack that comes with the kit, there is CYA in the starter pack (I researched it about two months ago but do not remember how much), so there is some there, and since it's the same pack for all spas, in my smaller one it might be higher than you think. I ought to look it up when I have some time and run it through a calculator...But not this weekend.

Interestingly enough this is a Frog system provided by Maax and they recommend supplementing every time it is used with a 1/4 cup of MPS and hitting it hard with MPS once a week (I think a cup), so at least that manufacturer doesn't thing the Frog @Ease by itself is adequate. MPS in our high TDS water seemed like it would become a problem fast so I decided to use bleach instead. It's a lot less expensive.

Like I said, I'm going to switch to Bromine for the spa. It should work the same way. The chlorine in the Frog is basically the chlorine shock that many companies sell for Bromine spas anyway. It's an interesting system but kind of pricey as I said. What I am doing has worked great. The only issue I have had is TA issues, but that is the Arizona water. I might partially refill with some store bought RO to see if I can keep that better in control. In a 245 gal tub, and 25 cents a gallon, I can do a few five gallon jugs...

 

[BravoRomeo]

The bleach the next day tends to read just slightly above the level on the Frog strips (a little darker green) if I hadn't been using it at all even when I do use a half cup. I should probably say I do no more than a half a cup... usually I do a 1/4 but since at most I've been using the tub every other day and lately, for the last couple of weeks about every fourth day then I assure you the FC level is back down again. The higher temperatures seem to nuke the chlorine fast, and in Arizona in July, even with the heater off (turned down to 90F which is off), I tend to have to let the spa cool off a bit to use it (usually 106 to 110F when I open it). And no, with the yard torn up the cover isn't going to stay off except when I am with it or in it.

Are you using the @ease-specific strips? It's not clear to me that the first greenish/cyan patch (SmartChlor Out Indicator) actually measures FC. I'm suspecting it's measuring the reserve somehow.

I wonder if it's possible any FC manually added via bleach or dichlor ends up combining with the SmartChlor reserve. I haven't tried increasing the FC manually, but curious now.

I suppose I'm not afraid of the higher chlorine levels anyway, and I never have any chloramine smell. Water seems great. It's in a new tub and I think the PVC glue smell in the water is almost gone. I almost changed it early to get rid if it. I also have this issue now that we are building an in ground pool that a lot more dust is ending up in it, so running the chlorine high I think will be a thing for the next several months, or at least until I drain and switch to Bromine. I haven't attempted to measure CYA, but if you look at the chemical pack that comes with the kit, there is CYA in the starter pack (I researched it about two months ago but do not remember how much), so there is some there, and since it's the same pack for all spas, in my smaller one it might be higher than you think. I ought to look it up when I have some time and run it through a calculator...But not this weekend.

Yes, I had the PVC smell on my new tub at first, too. It's mostly dissipated now.

The Frog Jump Start pack is 33.3% dichlor, and 35.5% citric acid (remainder inert). I dosed according to the label, so only added 1/3 the packet for my 243 gallon tub. Adding the full packet would have resulted in 8.4 ppm FC, and 7.7 ppm CYA according to Pool Math.

Interestingly enough this is a Frog system provided by Maax and they recommend supplementing every time it is used with a 1/4 cup of MPS and hitting it hard with MPS once a week (I think a cup), so at least that manufacturer doesn't thing the Frog @Ease by itself is adequate. MPS in our high TDS water seemed like it would become a problem fast so I decided to use bleach instead. It's a lot less expensive.

My spa dealer gave me an overwhelming box of bottles with handwritten markings of what to add and when (dry acid, metal gone, flocculant, enzymes, an MPS blend, etc, etc). When I talked to them at the showroom, it was clear they had some misconceptions about water balance and sanitation... it all seemed geared towards selling more bottles of various remedies from a massive display and trying to treat all customers as if they had the same water. Instead, I'm just following the @ease instruction sheet from Frog so as to give it a fair test.

Like I said, I'm going to switch to Bromine for the spa. It should work the same way. The chlorine in the Frog is basically the chlorine shock that many companies sell for Bromine spas anyway. It's an interesting system but kind of pricey as I said. What I am doing has worked great. The only issue I have had is TA issues, but that is the Arizona water. I might partially refill with some store bought RO to see if I can keep that better in control. In a 245 gal tub, and 25 cents a gallon, I can do a few five gallon jugs...

I have high TA (over 200). It took a few days to lower the TA using acid/aeration approach. It seems to have settled in around a TA of 50 to keep pH stable in the mid 7's.

Tell me more about the chlorine shock for bromine being the same as the SmartChlor. If I continue with @ease, it would be great to have an option to refill. The only thing I've seen that's chemically identical is 2000 Flushes original, and the pricing didn't pencil out as a significant savings.

It sounds like you and I have the same tub.