New Construction- Eastern PA

[aaa7477]

Hi,

I have been lurking in here for sometime. Finally we have decided to build our new pool. Looked at lot of options and finally decided to go with fiber glass pool. The PB works with both Riviera and Life time pools. We are trying to keep it simple. It was a hard decision to decide between free form and rectangle. Finally decided on a rectangular pool as i would like to add a automatic pool cover in the future and we really liked the pool features.

This is what we are getting

Life Time Fiber Glass Pool : Hollywood Model 18 x 44 in the color 'Admiral' with a tanning ledge and a 8' deep end diving end.
Hayward SWG with Omnilogic controls
Catridge Filter- Hayward C5030
Hayward Color Logic LED lights- 2
2 in plumbing
Hayward VS Pump
Most likely would add 4 deck jets. PB is quoting $1000 to add them

Contemplating between Heat Pump and Gas Heater. Looks like i could buy the Hayward 140k BTU Heat Pump for $2750- $2950 from various online retailers. PB would install them for $200. PB quote is more than double for the same pump. PB is quoting Hayward 400k BTU Gas Heater for around $3500 with the gas line included. I am worried about the operational cost for the gas heater. Appreciate anyone with similar exp, could chime in.

Let me know if we need to consider anything else at this point.

 

[rob.mwpropane]

Hi,

I have been lurking in here for sometime. Finally we have decided to build our new pool. Looked at lot of options and finally decided to go with fiber glass pool. The PB works with both Riviera and Life time pools. We are trying to keep it simple. It was a hard decision to decide between free form and rectangle. Finally decided on a rectangular pool as i would like to add a automatic pool cover in the future and we really liked the pool features.

This is what we are getting

Life Time Fiber Glass Pool : Hollywood Model 18 x 44 in the color 'Admiral' with a tanning ledge and a 8' deep end diving end.
Hayward SWG with Omnilogic controls
Catridge Filter- Hayward C5030
Hayward Color Logic LED lights- 2
2 in plumbing
Most likely would add 4 deck jets. PB is quoting $1000 to add them

Contemplating between Heat Pump and Gas Heater. Looks like i could buy the Hayward 140k BTU Heat Pump for $2750- $2950 from various online retailers. PB would install them for $200. PB quote is more than double for the same pump. PB is quoting Hayward 400k BTU Gas Heater for around $3500 with the gas line included. I am worried about the operational cost for the gas heater. Appreciate anyone with similar exp, could chime in.

Let me know if we need to consider anything else at this point.

I'm a gas guy, so here's what I know;

My propane gas heater (400K BTU) can increase my pool temp ~ 8 degrees an hour. It does so very fast. It's bath water coming out of the returns. We don't use it all the time (only when the wife wants to get in the pool , the kids nor I care so much). Last year I used a total of 140 gallons. A current gallon of propane cost $1.30, so it would have been around $180.60 for all of last year, or $5.68/hr to run.

NG rates vary by area, but MD is right around $1.30/therm this year. At that rate, to heat the same pool would have cost about ~ $182 for the same usage.

Heat pumps, as far as I'm told, have to stay on for quite a while longer. Let's say your heat pump uses 7.2Kilowatts / hr. for the 140K unit (I looked it up). At my current rate of .14 cents per kilowatt, that would be $1.00/hour, but for the pool to reach temp would take much longer. If we were to compare the 140K btu heat pump to the above gas heaters, it would take 2.85 hrs to equal one of there hrs. (400btu divided by 140btu). So 2.85 hrs x $1.00 would be $2.85 to equal the same amount of heat from a gas heater. ~ $140 for the same usage last year

Lets break this down;

Propane - 91,500 BTU's per gallon, so 4.37 gallons/hr for the 400K heater or $5.68/hr (based on the going rate today of $1.30/gallon)

Natural Gas - 100,003 BTU's per therm, so 4 therms/hr for the 400K heater or $5.20/hr (based on going rate today of $1.30/therm)

Electric Heat Pump - 7.2KW for 140K BTU's or 20.5KW for 400K BTU's or $2.87/400K BTU's (will take 2.85 hrs to get there) (based on the going rate of .14 cents/kilowatt)


Electricity will take a good bit longer, and none of my numbers for heat pumps take into account real world experience with heat pumps. I know I've changed out quite a few because people just aren't happy with the wait times. The last one I traded out, he said it would take 2 days for his heat pump to get his pool where he wanted it (It was a larger pool). To top it off, he said that he had to keep in running quite a bit.

My gas heater get's me where I want in about an hour, and I can shop heavily for gas because I own my tank. I'd never pay $1.30/gallon. I got propane @ .66/gallon last year, so my bill for last year was $92.40. I usually only have to heat in spring / fall.

Whichever you choose, a solar blanket will save a good chunk of heat/money.


Honestly, it all depends on your rates, your pockets, and your patience....

 

[rob.mwpropane]

Here's a thread about the same dilemma;

Gas heater vs. Heat pump

I've never met anyone who didn't love their gas heater.

 

[PoolGate]

I'm a gas guy, so here's what I know;

My propane gas heater (400K BTU) can increase my pool temp ~ 8 degrees an hour. It does so very fast. It's bath water coming out of the returns. We don't use it all the time (only when the wife wants to get in the pool , the kids nor I care so much). Last year I used a total of 140 gallons. A current gallon of propane cost $1.30, so it would have been around $180.60 for all of last year, or $5.68/hr to run.

NG rates vary by area, but MD is right around $1.30/therm this year. At that rate, to heat the same pool would have cost about ~ $182 for the same usage.

Heat pumps, as far as I'm told, have to stay on for quite a while longer. Let's say your heat pump uses 7.2Kilowatts / hr. for the 140K unit (I looked it up). At my current rate of .14 cents per kilowatt, that would be $1.00/hour, but for the pool to reach temp would take much longer. If we were to compare the 140K btu heat pump to the above gas heaters, it would take 2.85 hrs to equal one of there hrs. (400btu divided by 140btu). So 2.85 hrs x $1.00 would be $2.85 to equal the same amount of heat from a gas heater. ~ $140 for the same usage last year

Lets break this down;

Propane - 91,500 BTU's per gallon, so 4.37 gallons/hr for the 400K heater or $5.68/hr (based on the going rate today of $1.30/gallon)

Natural Gas - 100,003 BTU's per therm, so 4 therms/hr for the 400K heater or $5.20/hr (based on going rate today of $1.30/therm)

Electric Heat Pump - 7.2KW for 140K BTU's or 20.5KW for 400K BTU's or $2.87/400K BTU's (will take 2.85 hrs to get there) (based on the going rate of .14 cents/kilowatt)


Electricity will take a good bit longer, and none of my numbers for heat pumps take into account real world experience with heat pumps. I know I've changed out quite a few because people just aren't happy with the wait times. The last one I traded out, he said it would take 2 days for his heat pump to get his pool where he wanted it (It was a larger pool). To top it off, he said that he had to keep in running quite a bit.

My gas heater get's me where I want in about an hour, and I can shop heavily for gas because I own my tank. I'd never pay $1.30/gallon. I got propane @ .66/gallon last year, so my bill for last year was $92.40. I usually only have to heat in spring / fall.

Whichever you choose, a solar blanket will save a good chunk of heat/money.


Honestly, it all depends on your rates, your pockets, and your patience....

Wow great post thanks! Now I am second guessing my choice of a heat pump. I plan on keeping my pool around 88 in MD where the summer temps are 90-100 all summer with nighttime temps in the 80s. I have natural gas available to me and when we looked at gas vs heat pump installation was a wash. So it really is a question of monthly costs to operate and heater replacement when it dies. My initial thoughts were with our average temps the heat pump would not work very hard, if at all during the season. That means the heater is more for the off-months like April/May and September/October. With temps being much lower the gas would make it so much better to swim and extend my season. I sure wish I had an extra $5k to install both. Also I did read that HP lasts 15 years with no maintenance and Gas lasts under 10 and requires maintenance.

 

[rob.mwpropane]

Wow great post thanks! Now I am second guessing my choice of a heat pump. I plan on keeping my pool around 88 in MD where the summer temps are 90-100 all summer with nighttime temps in the 80s. I have natural gas available to me and when we looked at gas vs heat pump installation was a wash. So it really is a question of monthly costs to operate and heater replacement when it dies. My initial thoughts were with our average temps the heat pump would not work very hard, if at all during the season. That means the heater is more for the off-months like April/May and September/October. With temps being much lower the gas would make it so much better to swim and extend my season. I sure wish I had an extra $5k to install both. Also I did read that HP lasts 15 years with no maintenance and Gas lasts under 10 and requires maintenance.

My heater is from 2001 and works like a champ. If your in MD, I would go with gas. If I was farther down south, I might think about a HP, but not here. The 140K that Hayward boasts is at 80 degrees with 80% humidity.... not happening most nights where I live. So that means that the 7.2Kw your dumping into it becomes more inefficient....140K Btu's becomes 120K Btu's, 80K, and so on.

While a gas heater may cost more to run, you'll just about always get the the 85% efficiency out of the unit because it doesn't care what the outside temperature is.

HP like it to be hot and humid to be efficient. Gas heaters will run @ 85% efficiency in rain, snow, sleet, or shine.

With all that said, if I planned on being in my pool 24/7 all throughout summer, I might consider a HP. We're not. I'm in maybe a few times a week, and the kids more so. If I had to have a pool be set @ 88, and planned on being in it every day for all the summers of it's life, I may think about a HP. I could also get an automation system and schedule the gas heater to only heat the pool at the times I knew I would be in it, and use a solar cover either way.

 

[aaa7477]

Thanks a lot for the info. I did look up the rates. Electric is around 12.2 cents and NG is around 90 cents that includes distribution charges as well. Like the other poster had mentioned, the main idea is to keep the pool heated up during Apr/May and Sep/ Oct season. Having said that, i would like to maintain the pool temp constant during the spring break for the kids. That is around 10 days in Apr. Rest it might only be on the weekends.

- - - Updated - - -

Have you built the pool? Also what brand is the 175k Heat Pump? I looked it up in Haywards website...looks like 140k is their max. Since i am using all Hayward equipment, does it make sense to stay with the same brand?

- - - Updated - - -

PB said the pool would be appx 21k Gallon. So, time to heat the pool would be more than yours right?

 

[aaa7477]

Pool Model:

 

[bmoreswim]

Wow great post thanks! Now I am second guessing my choice of a heat pump. I plan on keeping my pool around 88 in MD where the summer temps are 90-100 all summer with nighttime temps in the 80s. I have natural gas available to me and when we looked at gas vs heat pump installation was a wash. So it really is a question of monthly costs to operate and heater replacement when it dies. My initial thoughts were with our average temps the heat pump would not work very hard, if at all during the season. That means the heater is more for the off-months like April/May and September/October. With temps being much lower the gas would make it so much better to swim and extend my season. I sure wish I had an extra $5k to install both. Also I did read that HP lasts 15 years with no maintenance and Gas lasts under 10 and requires maintenance.

Be careful not to over estimate the MD or PA summer temps. It seems like it's hot all the time until you get a pool! The last 5 days the high has been max 83. This AM it was 48 here and it's LATE June. It's been what non pool owners call perfect weather. I prefer my dewpoints in the mid 60's not near 50. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of hot spells it's just not consistent. At least not since May 2013! Which doesn't help the heat pump cause. Though the earth's warming will help HP's over time.

 

[rob.mwpropane]

Thanks a lot for the info. I did look up the rates. Electric is around 12.2 cents and NG is around 90 cents that includes distribution charges as well. Like the other poster had mentioned, the main idea is to keep the pool heated up during Apr/May and Sep/ Oct season. Having said that, i would like to maintain the pool temp constant during the spring break for the kids. That is around 10 days in Apr. Rest it might only be on the weekends.

- - - Updated - - -

Have you built the pool? Also what brand is the 175k Heat Pump? I looked it up in Haywards website...looks like 140k is their max. Since i am using all Hayward equipment, does it make sense to stay with the same brand?

- - - Updated - - -

PB said the pool would be appx 21k Gallon. So, time to heat the pool would be more than yours right?

Yes, it would take longer to heat your pool, but not by much. Now this is from Pentair's brochure (We're using Haywards "140K" listing, so why not Pentair's brochure), but it says a a 400k unit can heat a 24k gallon pool 40 degrees in 24 hours.

Chart at the bottom right;
Dropbox - MaxEThrmDS.pdf

Now I don't believe the brochure, because I know they're all written in perfect scenarios and it's just numbers. What I do know is in my little pool, we can all feel the heater make a difference within 20-30 minutes of the unit running. I really never hear it come on for more than an hour before it reaches temp, and then just comes on and off to hold it. We like it @ 84 or so.

Even if you doubled my usage from last year (and I did NOT use a solar blanket.....just lazy), and used $.90/therm for NG, your still only looking at using 280 therms@$252 for the year.

And I agree w/Bmoreswim, our weather in MD/PA is way too unpredictable for a HP....probably why I've had so many customers get rid of them.

 

[PoolGate]

I know HPs are well regarded by the owners but realistically, when you need them most (when the temps are low) they are less than adequate and when you need them least (temps are high) you really don't need them at all. I talked to the S/O last night and she wants to switch out to a natural gas heater as well. I have gas available right on my deck above the pool installation and my gas meter is the same distance as the electric will be so I don't think running the gas line will be too expensive. The bigger issue is we spec'd the equipment pad to be under my existing deck. the pad location will be 10 feet below the deck above it. I am not sure they can (or I want them to) put a gas fired heater below a wood deck. So may need to change the whole equipment layout. I'm going to talk to my PB hopefully today and work things out.

 

[rob.mwpropane]

I know HPs are well regarded by the owners but realistically, when you need them most (when the temps are low) they are less than adequate and when you need them least (temps are high) you really don't need them at all. I talked to the S/O last night and she wants to switch out to a natural gas heater as well. I have gas available right on my deck above the pool installation and my gas meter is the same distance as the electric will be so I don't think running the gas line will be too expensive. The bigger issue is we spec'd the equipment pad to be under my existing deck. the pad location will be 10 feet below the deck above it. I am not sure they can (or I want them to) put a gas fired heater below a wood deck. So may need to change the whole equipment layout. I'm going to talk to my PB hopefully today and work things out.

Pentair manual says that you can not install exaust under a deck. The heater can be, just not the exhaust. I've seen extensions for the exhaust that can get it out from underneath a deck. You'll have to check with local code enforcement as they'll have the final say.

I've also seen them installed inside with the exaust ran outside, and that passes here.

 

[aaa7477]

Thanks a lot for all in help and information. I am certainly leaning towards the gas heater. Can you clarify if i need to run the heater continuously in Apr for a week or so to maintain the temp a constant 85-88, it would still be economical as compared to the heat pump. Another week would be the memorial day weekend, i might need the pool be at a high temp for atleast 4-5 days.

 

[Esloser]

I just got my first gas bill from running my pool in May. I have a Hayward 400k BTU heater that is used to heat a spa and pool. Now, I don't maintain the pool heat constantly, but on weekends I will start it Friday at 65-70 degrees and get it up to 85 and keep it there through Sunday. That thing sounds like a Boeing getting ready for takeoff. I think it's the sound of money burning. I also use the spa 3-4 nights a week. My 1st month bill was about $280 in Southern New Jersey. I'm at $1.10 per therm. Compared to last year without pool heater, I used about 200 more therms(?) this year. June, July, and August, I'm expecting the bill to be in the $100-200 range because I will only use it to heat the spa on cooler nights.

 

[aaa7477]

That doesn't sound promising. But your pool seems to be a monster with 36k Gallon . Mine would be 21k Gallon with no spa. Would it still be economical with the Gas Heater? Also did you use a solar blanket? If yes, did it help to retain some heat.

 

[Esloser]

oh - I thought that was pretty reasonable to heat a 36,000 gallon pool for 12 days out of the month. No, we didn't end up using a solar blanket. So, we did see drops in pool temps overnight of ~10-15 degrees. And, on some weekends we were fighting ambient temperatures in the high 70's-low 80's. On weekends the temperature got up around 85-90, it only took a couple of hours to get the pool temp up to 85.

 

[tmurphy]

Economical is a matter of perspective.
Do you want to have a pool sitting there unused because the heat pump can't keep up, or it takes to long to get it up to optimal temps and you didn't think about having people over for a swim tonight until lunch time today?
If The cost difference between the install of the heat pump and gas fired is pretty much even, but you get 400,000btu from the gas and 140btu from the pump..... go with the gas.
Yes, operating costs may be a bit higher, but, as has been said, heat pumps don't do as well when it is cool.... that is when you need them!
We love our gas heater.... I can fire it up in the morning, with the pool @ 72 and have it up to 82 by the time the kids get home from school.
We have a 200k btu and a 10,000 gallon above ground.
So a 400k with a 20,000 gallon sounds about perfect ��

 

[rob.mwpropane]

I just got my first gas bill from running my pool in May. I have a Hayward 400k BTU heater that is used to heat a spa and pool. Now, I don't maintain the pool heat constantly, but on weekends I will start it Friday at 65-70 degrees and get it up to 85 and keep it there through Sunday. That thing sounds like a Boeing getting ready for takeoff. I think it's the sound of money burning. I also use the spa 3-4 nights a week. My 1st month bill was about $280 in Southern New Jersey. I'm at $1.10 per therm. Compared to last year without pool heater, I used about 200 more therms(?) this year. June, July, and August, I'm expecting the bill to be in the $100-200 range because I will only use it to heat the spa on cooler nights.

That's a monster pool, and a great price. Basically 3 times my pool, and almost 2x the cost of gas that I paid, and still a reasonable price. Really not that bad at all for what you did with it. And to top it off without a cover. I bet the bill could of been cut by at least 1/3 if not more with the cover. Without the pool being able to evaporate the heat out, you'd save a ton..... I know they're a pain. I need to get around to setting up my reel....

 

[rob.mwpropane]

Economical is a matter of perspective.
Do you want to have a pool sitting there unused because the heat pump can't keep up, or it takes to long to get it up to optimal temps and you didn't think about having people over for a swim tonight until lunch time today?
If The cost difference between the install of the heat pump and gas fired is pretty much even, but you get 400,000btu from the gas and 140btu from the pump..... go with the gas.
Yes, operating costs may be a bit higher, but, as has been said, heat pumps don't do as well when it is cool.... that is when you need them!
We love our gas heater.... I can fire it up in the morning, with the pool @ 72 and have it up to 82 by the time the kids get home from school.
We have a 200k btu and a 10,000 gallon above ground.
So a 400k with a 20,000 gallon sounds about perfect ��

I agree that a HP can't keep up. I wish they listed the efficiency at different conditions. I wonder what it does @ 60 degrees and no humidity?

A 400K gas heater @ 85% efficiency will give you 340K BTU's of heat going in the pool, and it will do so very consistently. The HP @ best on a warm day will give you 140K of heat going in the pool, but if the humidity changes, weather, temperature, rain....that 140K goes down super fast.

Owning a pool is a money pit no matter how you look at it. Is it worth it? Yeah, I think so....it gives us a lot of enjoyment. The heater is the cherry on the cake, and really is what allows my wife to get in. Without it, she wouldn't, but now at the spur of a moment, she'll get in just knowing that the heater will have it up in no time. She usually just hangs out at the return for a few minutes, lol. A HP could not do this for us.

 

[aaa7477]

Thats my goal too and one of the reasons to go for a rectangle pool....so that i can get covers easily. No matter which direction we lean, guess i need to invest in s solar cover with a good reel system. Let me know if you guys have any suggestions on which one to buy.

 

[PoolGate]

Thats my goal too and one of the reasons to go for a rectangle pool....so that i can get covers easily. No matter which direction we lean, guess i need to invest in s solar cover with a good reel system. Let me know if you guys have any suggestions on which one to buy.

If I use a rectangular cover for a free-form pool, and the cover doesn't completely touch the water everywhere, will it still be as efficient?