New Construction: Cathedral City CA

It protects the chlorine better during the slow addition of chlorine. It also allows for lower FC loss during high sun angle portions of the year. As we assume the SWCG will add the daily chlorine without fail, you can have a higher CYA. You could do the same with liquid chlorine, just don't miss a day.
 
Thanks Marty. I'll have to stew on that for a while until it sinks in...

From the 'Deep End' --

Salt Water chlorine Generation (SWG) pools seem to require a higher level of CYA, about 70-80 ppm, to operate efficiently. The theory is that the CYA is slow to "store" the chlorine as it is being generated so without enough CYA there is a build-up of chlorine that degrades the performance of the salt cell. I would prefer that the SWG manufacturers offer a larger lower-power (per length) cell that would work efficiently at lower CYA concentrations.

Not sure that helps --------
 
Some, thanks.

What I've been assuming is that, somewhere along the way, you all tried SWG pools at CYA30 and were experiencing too much chlorine loss and so kept upping CYA until a large number of pools were happiest. Which is fine by me, I don't need to reinvent the wheel. What works works.

It just doesn't align with how I think of CYA (my own personal analogy): as little sun-resistant containers that start out empty of chlorine, and then snatch it up when it becomes available. Once all the containers are full, any excess chlorine added after that just gets quickly burned off by the sun, because it has nowhere to hide. Meanwhile, when the chlorine that's available in the water for sanitizing drops below a certain amount, the CYA then releases its stored chlorine to replenish what just got used up, either by the sun or by sanitizing. But if you have too many containers floating around (when your CYA gets too high), then you have too many places for the chlorine to stay stored (locked up) and not enough floating around to do its job. Something like that. I just can't squeeze in your explanations yet into my analogy.

Yes, this is my brain on CYA! ;)
 
Some, thanks.

What I've been assuming is that, somewhere along the way, you all tried SWG pools at CYA30 and were experiencing too much chlorine loss and so kept upping CYA until a large number of pools were happiest. Which is fine by me, I don't need to reinvent the wheel. What works works.

It just doesn't align with how I think of CYA (my own personal analogy): as little sun-resistant containers that start out empty of chlorine, and then snatch it up when it becomes available. Once all the containers are full, any excess chlorine added after that just gets quickly burned off by the sun, because it has nowhere to hide. Meanwhile, when the chlorine that's available in the water for sanitizing drops below a certain amount, the CYA then releases its stored chlorine to replenish what just got used up, either by the sun or by sanitizing. But if you have too many containers floating around (when your CYA gets too high), then you have too many places for the chlorine to stay stored (locked up) and not enough floating around to do its job. Something like that. I just can't squeeze in your explanations yet into my analogy.

Yes, this is my brain on CYA! ;)

Dirk ... do I see a CYA level test in the future?
 
Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like you've done anything wrong or bad for your SWG. I only meant if you left it unplugged, then you couldn't possibly, and wouldn't have to think about that aspect. Zero output is probably fine, but as you are just learning (or re-learning) how all that works, then you could play it safe.

Follow the SWG cable away from the SWG. At the end of that cable is a connector with a twist-type lock. It's either plugged into a transformer (big tan box), or your ET (bigger tan box). I have an external transformer, so I've never seen the plug go into an ET that has a built-in transformer, but it's there somewhere. You turn off anything that's running (pump, etc), then the breaker to the SWG (or all the breakers to the pad if you're not sure what all the breakers do), and then just twist the SWG connector and pull out the plug. Alternately, if your SWG is on a dedicated breaker (and you know that breaker doesn't supply power to anything else), then all you have to do is turn off the breaker.

That is the sure fire way that nothing you turn on, or schedule or adjust within the ET or ScreenLogic interface can inadvertently energize the plates of the SWG while the salt is still mixing. You tested salt at two different times, and found that it had gone down, right? That could be tester error, or margin of error, or just that you sampled two patches of water, one with more salt in it than the other, and that's what you're guarding against: two chunks of water running through your SWG, back to back, that have two different amounts of salt in them.

1. You switch to SWG in Pool Math when your pool is getting all its chlorine from the SWG, not before.

2. Wait a few days, and confirm your salt is mixed in: no salt on the bottom, consistent salt level test results from one day to the next.

3. Yes, add the CYA. Doesn't have to be slowly, unless by that you meant creep up on your target CYA amount cautiously, not to overshoot. Use your test kit and Pool Math to calculate how much CYA to add, then add half or 3/4 of that amount. Repeat until you reach your target. You just don't want to hit 90. Remember, you allow a day between dosing and testing, for the CYA to show up. Longer is better. Since both salt and CYA need this mixing time, you can do both simultaneously and use this "patience period" for both level adjustments.

4. That one I'm not sure of. Should be OK, or wait until someone else confirms that. Water with varying amounts of salt in it should not harm your heater (not like it would an SWG).


Thanks Dirk,

This morning the (pump still running at 2700rpms), the R-1766 tested at 2600ppm and been consistent since for all three tests taken in the last 40 hrs. The 2 lights on the SWG remain green for salt and flow.

The ScreenLogic mobile app showed the salt level (36 hours ago) at 2900ppm, yesterday (24 hrs ago) it read 2850ppm, this morning it's showing 2800ppm. We'll see if that changes 12 hours later today.

I did follow the black cable from the SWG to the ET Panel. It appears to have a twist locking mechanism, however there is this warning label. "Main Power" could be considered the power to the panel, or power to the breaker. Like you said, if I shut off the power to the panel then nothing would work. If I shut off the breaker to the SWG, then I'm not sure what the purpose would be to disconnect this cable. :)
IMG_3305.jpg

In regards to salt at the bottom of the pool, after putting the salt in (and brushing it), a few hours later there was no visible signs of salt. Before swimming, I walked the entire pool floor and felt nothing, I swam along the bottom and saw nothing. I have continues to brush and swim hours later and saw/felt no salt.

Yeah, I remember that you want to creep up on the CYA as to not overshoot it. I will set my target to 70, but start with adding 1/2 pMath's recommendation.. wait a few days and go from there.

I did see your suggestion Marty about waiting until March to convert over, but for this year I'd like to see this year what month the temps get low enough to make the change back to chlorine.

Dirk, your suggestion was to wait until the pool is getting it's chlorine needs met only from the SWG before switching to a salt pool in pMath. This brings up questions:

1 - I assume that is when I stabilize the output % and FC is 5.0 (if my CYA is 70)... right?

2 - When I get the CYA to 70... then in a month or two, I set the SWG back to Zero %, and change pMath to a chlorine pool, the CYA will be too high. Ever year will I need to drain water out of the pool and replace it with fresh water to lower the CYA.... when making this change?
 
I did follow the black cable from the SWG to the ET Panel. It appears to have a twist locking mechanism, however there is this warning label. "Main Power" could be considered the power to the panel, or power to the breaker. Like you said, if I shut off the power to the panel then nothing would work. If I shut off the breaker to the SWG, then I'm not sure what the purpose would be to disconnect this cable. :)

1 - I assume that is when I stabilize the output % and FC is 5.0 (if my CYA is 70)... right?

2 - When I get the CYA to 70... then in a month or two, I set the SWG back to Zero %, and change pMath to a chlorine pool, the CYA will be too high. Ever year will I need to drain water out of the pool and replace it with fresh water to lower the CYA.... when making this change?

All sounds good.

Regarding the SWG connection, I'm not sure there is a question in there or not. The warning on the sticker is the same one I gave you, you want to be sure there is no current running through the cable when you disconnect it, or reconnect it. The sure fire way to do that is to power down the entire subpanel, which is what I would recommend if you want to disconnect the cable. I didn't explain that well enough before. If you have a dedicated breaker for the SWG, then just shut that off to disable the SWG while you wait for the salt to mix in. (Though it sounds like it has by now.) Leave the cable attached in that case. The reason I would shut down the entire box to remove the cable is because while the transformer is connected to the dedicated SWG breaker, there are other wires in the connector that are comm wires, which I believe run straight to the mother board and have current running in them whether the transformer is powered or not. So you don't want to fool with that connector if there is any power running through any of the wires, or power to the motherboard.

I was told, way back when, that setting the SWG to zero is fine for the winter months, it won't try to produce chlorine in that state. But I don't like the idea of the thing still receiving power, even if to run the LEDs, so I like to disconnect it. Pentair sells a "place holder" gizmo for the SWG, so you can remove it entirely when need be, at which point you also disconnect it. Different strokes...

1. Yes, target FC is 5, though as I must have mentioned by now, I like to use the target as my minimum, and go a little higher for my target (like 6). This ensures that if anything goes wrong that affects FC (super hot day, SWG failure, gopher in the skimmer, CYA test error, whatever), I have a little extra FC to spare before I get anywhere near the minimum of 3. All that happens if you go a little over is that you lose a little chlorine to the sun. Worth it to me. Your call.

2. No, you won't need to drain your pool. You do set your pMath to chlorine pool, and follow the recommended FC level for your CYA of 70. It will decrease over the summer (mine did), so you could leave it low until next spring (as I will do). That'll require a slightly lower FC level during "manual chlorine mode." Either way is fine. You continue to test your CYA, all seasons. You always determine your FC level based on your CYA level, all seasons. You use the "Non-SWCG Pools" chart when your SWG is not running. You use the "SWCG Pools" chart when your SWG is running.

Kim? Marty? How'd I do?
 
What I'm not super clear on yet, as this will be my first winter with an SWG pool, is what to do with the other few levels whose ranges change when you switch pMath from SWG to chlorine. This is my plan:

I'm going to track, but not adjust, CYA (not until spring).

I'm going to use the "Non-SWCG" chart for my CYA/FC ratio.

I'm going to track, but not adjust, CH for these winter months. I purposely set my CH to 350 for this reason, because 350 is within range for both a SWG and a non-SWG plaster pool. Clever, eh? Remember, I can dial in my CH as it does not accumulate.

I'm going to adjust pH to keep my CSI close to zero to accommodate how the lower water temp will affect it.

I'm going to ignore TA, as I always do, and let it live where it wants to live (as long as it doesn't go haywire).

I'm going to track, but not adjust, salt (not until spring).
 
Phew - my head hurts.

I am not as specific on all this. I do test my CYA monthly except from November to February. It does not change during that time. Whatever it is in November I keep my FC between 7 and 10% of that value, either using the SWCG (until water temp hits ~55F) or bleach.

pH I monitor once a week or so during November to February. It also does not change much as our fill water volume reduces dramatically.

You can just let the SWCG turn off due to low temp and let it ride. Or, what I do, is delete the POOL schedule and use a Feature Circuit to schedule the pump for skimming. That takes the power away from the SWCG. Normally, here in Laughlin, that occurs from early December to mid February.

If I leave for more than a few days I use a floater with tablets. Even doing that during the summer to keep the pH down a bit (I parted ways with my pool service). Is working well. And I always need CYA added during the summer anyway.
 
Just want to point out: Marty has a fiberglass pool. My new pebble tortured me with pH-rise all through the winter, no hiatus, so the OP and I will have to keep a close eye on that in the coming months.

I tried Marty's idea about the feature circuit and powering down the SWG that way, which certainly works, and works without having to mess with breakers and cables, etc, but that also defeats the temperature readout I get from my solar panel sensors, so I went another way. If you don't get temp readings like that, his method is a good one.
 

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So much great information the last day (or two) that raises more questions. Before I ask those questions here I'm searching TFP first to see what more I can glean from those posts.

This morning here is what is new here. We heated the spa last night (100°) for a couple hours. That's when I realized if we set SL to Spa Mode, the lights on the IC40 come on (It's still set to zero % output in both Pool and Spa Modes).

At midnight, I turned off Spa Mode and returned to using the 2700rpm Feature to continue circulating the water. This morning I glanced at the Salt Level in SL and saw 3200ppm.... WHAT!?

I turned off the 2700rpm Feature (which BTW does not turn on the IC40, and turned on Pool Mode (which DOES turn on the IC40). A minute or two later SL showed the Salt Level to be 2850ppm (the same level it was before heating and using the spa last night).

Could the spa's heated water or two people in the spa cause the spa waters salt level to increase like that?

Also, the R-1766 test this morning gave me a salt reading of 2400ppm (I did the test twice) so I assume that the salt is truly still diluting 4 days later, OR ... I saw I was running low on R-0718 and happened to look at the very faded exp date - it was 05/10!! The R-0630 bottle in the kit is dated 12/20. I purchased these in April 2018. - Someone will be getting an angry call!

And believe me ... I'm going to have a serious discussion with myself for not checking those dates when purchasing!
 
The IC uses water temperature as a factor to determine salinity. When the water temperature is low, it is known to report a lower than actual salinity. So circulating the heated spa water through it will show a higher salinity.

When in Spa mode your IC output is set for ~10% of the Pool mode setting.
 
The IC uses water temperature as a factor to determine salinity. When the water temperature is low, it is known to report a lower than actual salinity. So circulating the heated spa water through it will show a higher salinity.

When in Spa mode your IC output is set for ~10% of the Pool mode setting.

Yet another great pearl of wisdom Marty... TY.

As for your comment that Spa Mode. I have always set Spa Mode at 0%. Are you saying there is an internal override that does the 10% of what pool Mode is set to?

PS another ty ... After all these years, I just learned that the tilde ~ sign means .... approximate. That put a big smile on my face.



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I think you can change the setting in Spa mode. But mine just uses the 10% of Pool Mode. It is not a bad idea to add a touch of chlorine while using the spa.
 
Just to be clear, the Spa mode SWCG setting is 10% of the Pool mode setting. So if in Pool the SWCG is set at 50%, then in Spa mode it is 5%.
 
My ET and SL can set SWG separately for pool or spa, there is no default 5%. Curious about why that's different for you, Marty.

In my ET: the SWG only fires in two modes: Pool or Spa. It will not produce chlorine when in one of my other feature modes. Though I think if I have both Pool mode and a feature mode on, the higher RPM will override, but the SWG will be on because Pool mode is on. Easy enough to experiment to verify if your ET 8 works that way, too.

I don't have a spa, but still use Spa mode. My solar heater comes on with my Pool mode. As does my SWG run. When I want my solar heater on for more of the day, I turn on Spa mode, which is set to use solar, but has an SWG output of zero. That way, I get the extra heat, but no extra chlorine! The ET doesn't know I don't have a spa, so it happily does my bidding! Not that you can use that trick, the point was: there are creative ways to use automation, like that trick, or the feature trick Marty described, that are not immediately obvious. As you get comfortable with programming your ET, you can start to explore ways to eek out more "automation goodness."
 
OK, gotcha, I've since used it, so it could have been preset before I did...

Wait, if you raise your pool output setting, does the spa output track that, and raise automatically to maintain the ~10%.

And say you had 50% pool and 25% spa, and then set pool to 100%, does the spa go to 50%? In other words, does it maintain the ratio, whatever it is?
 
The Spa mode SWCG setting does rise when you raise the Pool Mode setting.

Not sure about the ratio thing. I have never changed it.
 

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