The cloudy water is likely from algae starting to grow because the FC is below minimum for your CYA, [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA]
Need help with Ascorbic Acid Treatment - Water is cloudy again.. Please help
- Thread starter kfpool
- Start date
- Jan 14, 2016
- 141
- Pool Size
- 12000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
Today is the 1st time it has fallen below the min. The cloudy water started two days ago when I was maintaining FC above 4.
If we assume it is algae, what is the path? I can't or I undo everything I just did.
If we assume it is algae, what is the path? I can't or I undo everything I just did.
- Jan 14, 2016
- 141
- Pool Size
- 12000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
Just checked water again. FC at 7... I overshot a tad when adding earlier, must have lost count & added an extra beaker of chlorine. good news is CC is solidly 0.
PH is creeping up. It was at 7.2. Added acid to take it back to 7.
Sequestration test kit arrived & I am at 12 ppm (jacks pink) added 6 oz to nudge that up a tad.
My wife is home all day tomorrow so we can keep a closer eye on it to prevent fluctuations.
PH is creeping up. It was at 7.2. Added acid to take it back to 7.
Sequestration test kit arrived & I am at 12 ppm (jacks pink) added 6 oz to nudge that up a tad.
My wife is home all day tomorrow so we can keep a closer eye on it to prevent fluctuations.
- Jan 14, 2016
- 141
- Pool Size
- 12000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
Test results this morning
FC at 6
PH 7.2
Added Acid to lower PH to 7.0
Water is still cloudy.
I did call the guys at Jack' s Magic to ensure I am using their product correctly & and the proper rate. Joel is of the opinion that I seem to be following the correct path & that the filter just needs time to do it's job.
I should note they recommend the purple stuff over the pink stuff. What is the reasoning for the recommendation here to use the pink?
FC at 6
PH 7.2
Added Acid to lower PH to 7.0
Water is still cloudy.
I did call the guys at Jack' s Magic to ensure I am using their product correctly & and the proper rate. Joel is of the opinion that I seem to be following the correct path & that the filter just needs time to do it's job.
I should note they recommend the purple stuff over the pink stuff. What is the reasoning for the recommendation here to use the pink?
Im not sure why they recommended that. In this article I referenced earlier, Pool School - Pool Stains, it says this about sequestrants:
Jack's also has more details on their website.
Jack's also has more details on their website.
- Jan 14, 2016
- 141
- Pool Size
- 12000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
Re: Should I perform an ascorbic acid treatment?
His response was "In liquid chlorinated pools we recommend using the Purple, the Pink will work, but we have found that the Purple is more effective in these pools" He eluded to the salts in the liquid chlorine as the reason for the recommendation.
His response was "In liquid chlorinated pools we recommend using the Purple, the Pink will work, but we have found that the Purple is more effective in these pools" He eluded to the salts in the liquid chlorine as the reason for the recommendation.
- Jan 14, 2016
- 141
- Pool Size
- 12000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
Re: Should I perform an ascorbic acid treatment?
Seems to be clearing a bit tonight. I can see the shallow end bottom and some of the walls and from what I can see, no stains have re-appeared.
Stuffed polyfil in the skimmer to possibly catch some of the particles.
Losing about 1ppm FC per hour. PH holding at 7.
Riding this out.
Seems to be clearing a bit tonight. I can see the shallow end bottom and some of the walls and from what I can see, no stains have re-appeared.
Stuffed polyfil in the skimmer to possibly catch some of the particles.
Losing about 1ppm FC per hour. PH holding at 7.
Riding this out.
Well, all chlorine adds salt to the pool and so does acid. I don't know, I think I'd stick with pink.
^The Jacks tech is referring to the fact that Pink is not as effective in high TDS (total dissolved solids...mainly salt) pools...whereas purple was formulated specifically to work in the high TDS of saltwater for hose with swg. I understand his reasoning.
Before I switched to swg last year, the salt level in my TFP pool, given old water and no need to drain, was around 2700 salinity
That's a normal byproduct of chlorine, but people using liquid chlorine tend not to need to fiddle with or dump their water as much as "normal" pool-stored folks due to keeping a level cya, and I think maybe Jacks is realizing this
Kfpool, I used to use Pink, then switched to Metal Magic for a while. After Jack's released purple, I switched to it last year the same time I went salt.
Much of this info is kind of "emerging" -- meaning I don't think Purple existed back when the AA treatment article was written. Perhaps we should take this comment from the Jacks tech to the mods for consideration in updating he AA article.
Next time you buy sequestrant for top up, I'd follow his advice. It was actually through a TFP thread a few years back where the info about Jacks pink and less efficacy in high TDS arose I believe.
Before I switched to swg last year, the salt level in my TFP pool, given old water and no need to drain, was around 2700 salinity
That's a normal byproduct of chlorine, but people using liquid chlorine tend not to need to fiddle with or dump their water as much as "normal" pool-stored folks due to keeping a level cya, and I think maybe Jacks is realizing this Kfpool, I used to use Pink, then switched to Metal Magic for a while. After Jack's released purple, I switched to it last year the same time I went salt.
Much of this info is kind of "emerging" -- meaning I don't think Purple existed back when the AA treatment article was written. Perhaps we should take this comment from the Jacks tech to the mods for consideration in updating he AA article.
Next time you buy sequestrant for top up, I'd follow his advice. It was actually through a TFP thread a few years back where the info about Jacks pink and less efficacy in high TDS arose I believe.
If pool, sorry I wasn't around this week to see your posts.
I know it doesn't help much right now, but for future reference my own experience with AA is that if you use more than the recommended rate of 2 lbs per 10,000 gallons you will have much more difficulty oxidizing the excess AA.
A second observation from when I used to do the treatments is that coming out, I feel one should immediately dose back to TFP level per [fc/cya][/FC/cya] and continue doing so, every few hours, until it holds normally...meaning if its normal for you to lose about 2-3 ppm per day, same rate of loss. The reason the article says "slowly" is to avoid raising the ph fast or overshooting and accidentally ending up at Slam level. But by reading, dosing, reading for a few hours day after, I'd never had that problem
However, MANY people have problems coming out of the treatment...which is why ve come to hate the AA treatment, as effective as it is
The cloudiness from sequestrant usually only occurs if the ch is high, btw.
In your shoes right now I would "gently" raise the FC to a few points above your FC/Cya ratio without slamming (to avoid undoing your hard work). I would keep it a few ppm above the high end and see if that doesn't help clear.
Might help if you post a new full set of readings, including CYA and CH.
Lastly, just so you know, I've had success with "direct application methods" avoiding full treatment and th associated tinkering. If you can reach it, a dishwasher pong wand with hollow handle filled with 50% AA mixed with water, for example, will clean up stairs in a jiff. I then immediately add just a maintenance dose of sequestrant. This can also work on floor stains using a sponge in an upside down bowl with perforated Saran Wrap on it, held down with a rock, pole, etc.
The best way to avoid having to do AA again is twin effort of maintaining sequestrant and preventing as much ion from getting not or building up in the water. So prefiltering well water, for example, is usually worthwhile, even though it never gets all the iron. Where concentration is high, partial dilution helps IF you have a low or no iron source. I now fill with soft water plumbed from my softener and prefilter that water with a 10" Pentek filter using a reducing filter to 1 micron.
I know it doesn't help much right now, but for future reference my own experience with AA is that if you use more than the recommended rate of 2 lbs per 10,000 gallons you will have much more difficulty oxidizing the excess AA.
A second observation from when I used to do the treatments is that coming out, I feel one should immediately dose back to TFP level per [fc/cya][/FC/cya] and continue doing so, every few hours, until it holds normally...meaning if its normal for you to lose about 2-3 ppm per day, same rate of loss. The reason the article says "slowly" is to avoid raising the ph fast or overshooting and accidentally ending up at Slam level. But by reading, dosing, reading for a few hours day after, I'd never had that problem
However, MANY people have problems coming out of the treatment...which is why ve come to hate the AA treatment, as effective as it is
The cloudiness from sequestrant usually only occurs if the ch is high, btw.
In your shoes right now I would "gently" raise the FC to a few points above your FC/Cya ratio without slamming (to avoid undoing your hard work). I would keep it a few ppm above the high end and see if that doesn't help clear.
Might help if you post a new full set of readings, including CYA and CH.
Lastly, just so you know, I've had success with "direct application methods" avoiding full treatment and th associated tinkering. If you can reach it, a dishwasher pong wand with hollow handle filled with 50% AA mixed with water, for example, will clean up stairs in a jiff. I then immediately add just a maintenance dose of sequestrant. This can also work on floor stains using a sponge in an upside down bowl with perforated Saran Wrap on it, held down with a rock, pole, etc.
The best way to avoid having to do AA again is twin effort of maintaining sequestrant and preventing as much ion from getting not or building up in the water. So prefiltering well water, for example, is usually worthwhile, even though it never gets all the iron. Where concentration is high, partial dilution helps IF you have a low or no iron source. I now fill with soft water plumbed from my softener and prefilter that water with a 10" Pentek filter using a reducing filter to 1 micron.
- Jan 14, 2016
- 141
- Pool Size
- 12000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
Swamp woman, thanks for chiming in.
Latest test results
FC 2.5 -- lost 3.5 ppm overnight
CC 0
PH 7
TA 70
CH 225 - this dropped from 250 some time yesterday -- don't know why. No water additions
CYA 40
Borate 50
Sequestration 9 ppm
I am adding chlorine to get to 5 &. Jacks pink to get to 12.
The water is clearing & see very little staining remaining.
History... this is a pool I inherited a year 1/2 ago that was poorly maintained.
Cya was over 200, CH was over 600.
Until I did the vitamin c test a few weeks ago I thought the plaster was brown with green specks. I now know it is white with green specks. Prior to the AA treatment every filter clean the filter was full of brown granules with a few green mixed in. I no longer see this.
I am seeing some gradual clearing and am riding this out hoping to be able to swim by the end of the weekend.
My fill water is from the city but I really believe that this is from something the previous guy did or didn't do.
I do have a new filter cartridge expected to arrive today along with some Jacks fiber filter stuff to help filter this cloud out.
It is frustrating that I specifically questioned whether I should exceed the 2lbs/10k max AA dose and was advised that there is no such max.. dump it in till the stain clears... whatever it takes.
We need a clear set of directions or a dedicated section on metal staining. I was told "this is rare" yet I see hundreds of posts asking the same questions. I plan on summarizing my experience and creating a flow chart to help others.
My 1st recommendation to anyone with staining, and I will follow my own advice, is to contact Jacks Magic. Super knowledgable and helpful. Asked a lot of questions to understand my pool and maintenance regimen before offering any advice & gave me his cell # so I could reach him after hours.
I learned from him that the vitamin c test does not imperially prove that it is a metal stain. So... without positively identifying the stain I broke the primary premise of the TFP (and MY) philosophy that you never make a change without understanding the problem, why you are making the change & exactly what you expect the results to be. Had I contacted them first, I would have tested the stain with a low cost stain ID kit so I would know exactly what I was dealing with. This should be our 1st recommendation as it is with our preaching. Spend the money on the test kit so you know what you have and what you need to to.
Then & ONLY then.... add chemicals to address the problem.
I am really glad you chimed in, I have read several of your posts in this and fully respect your knowledge.
Thank You Thank You Thank You
Latest test results
FC 2.5 -- lost 3.5 ppm overnight
CC 0
PH 7
TA 70
CH 225 - this dropped from 250 some time yesterday -- don't know why. No water additions
CYA 40
Borate 50
Sequestration 9 ppm
I am adding chlorine to get to 5 &. Jacks pink to get to 12.
The water is clearing & see very little staining remaining.
History... this is a pool I inherited a year 1/2 ago that was poorly maintained.
Cya was over 200, CH was over 600.
Until I did the vitamin c test a few weeks ago I thought the plaster was brown with green specks. I now know it is white with green specks. Prior to the AA treatment every filter clean the filter was full of brown granules with a few green mixed in. I no longer see this.
I am seeing some gradual clearing and am riding this out hoping to be able to swim by the end of the weekend.
My fill water is from the city but I really believe that this is from something the previous guy did or didn't do.
I do have a new filter cartridge expected to arrive today along with some Jacks fiber filter stuff to help filter this cloud out.
It is frustrating that I specifically questioned whether I should exceed the 2lbs/10k max AA dose and was advised that there is no such max.. dump it in till the stain clears... whatever it takes.
We need a clear set of directions or a dedicated section on metal staining. I was told "this is rare" yet I see hundreds of posts asking the same questions. I plan on summarizing my experience and creating a flow chart to help others.
My 1st recommendation to anyone with staining, and I will follow my own advice, is to contact Jacks Magic. Super knowledgable and helpful. Asked a lot of questions to understand my pool and maintenance regimen before offering any advice & gave me his cell # so I could reach him after hours.
I learned from him that the vitamin c test does not imperially prove that it is a metal stain. So... without positively identifying the stain I broke the primary premise of the TFP (and MY) philosophy that you never make a change without understanding the problem, why you are making the change & exactly what you expect the results to be. Had I contacted them first, I would have tested the stain with a low cost stain ID kit so I would know exactly what I was dealing with. This should be our 1st recommendation as it is with our preaching. Spend the money on the test kit so you know what you have and what you need to to.
Then & ONLY then.... add chemicals to address the problem.
I am really glad you chimed in, I have read several of your posts in this and fully respect your knowledge.
Thank You Thank You Thank You
I think a flow chart and update summary would be great, though my own observations alone aren't necessarily reliable enough to form any kind of rule. Eg. Lots of folks use as much AA is needed to lift stain. I have no tolerance for vanishing FC and my pool environment, with lots of debris etc. is very unforgiving...so I don't In fact, i avoid AA treatments except spot type entirely now.
Jacks Tech is very good, so is Metal Magic's, and another resource I've found useful is Terry Arko, who occasionally writes guest columns for an industry pool magazine and heads research at Seaclear. Over the last few years, I've talked to them all, and tested quite a bit. My theories don't fully align with any in particular, but reasonably accord with all, and are also informed by some extensive reading I've now done for municipal water treatment plants as it applies to sequestering via technical and research documents. They are collectively valuable resources, but people's individual results seem to vary quite a bit, so taking on an kind of authorative guide can be a bit daunting But I agree that's something we should work toward!
One thing I am wondering about that's a variable in your experience is the cartridge filter. Mine s sand, which works well for filtering sequestrant and will accept filter aids. Be sure that Jack's filter aid is suitable for cartridge...we've seen others with sludgy messes
In fact, i avoid AA treatments except spot type entirely now.Jacks Tech is very good, so is Metal Magic's, and another resource I've found useful is Terry Arko, who occasionally writes guest columns for an industry pool magazine and heads research at Seaclear. Over the last few years, I've talked to them all, and tested quite a bit. My theories don't fully align with any in particular, but reasonably accord with all, and are also informed by some extensive reading I've now done for municipal water treatment plants as it applies to sequestering via technical and research documents. They are collectively valuable resources, but people's individual results seem to vary quite a bit, so taking on an kind of authorative guide can be a bit daunting
But I agree that's something we should work toward!One thing I am wondering about that's a variable in your experience is the cartridge filter. Mine s sand, which works well for filtering sequestrant and will accept filter aids. Be sure that Jack's filter aid is suitable for cartridge...we've seen others with sludgy messes
- Jan 14, 2016
- 141
- Pool Size
- 12000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
Re: Should I perform an ascorbic acid treatment?
The tech said it works great with a cartridge filter but...... there is a reason I have ordered a new cartridge [emoji848]
The tech said it works great with a cartridge filter but...... there is a reason I have ordered a new cartridge [emoji848]
- Jan 14, 2016
- 141
- Pool Size
- 12000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
installed a new filter cartridge last night and used the Fiber Filter Stuff as directed. Pool has gone from cloudy to nearly crystal clear overnight.
- Jan 14, 2016
- 141
- Pool Size
- 12000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
Been a while since I have updated this post. THe water remains extremely clear.... Guests (who own pools) have raved about how clear the water is and how the water does not affect their hair. 
I do have some staining re-appearing but is is light and the spots are rather small.... will most likely do this again this fall followed by a partial drain to get the bulk of the iron out of the water.
I have to say that installing a new filter cartridge and using the Filter Fiber Stuff from Jacks made a near immediate impact on the cloudy water. Pressures were pretty high with the old filter (14 PSI Clean) most likely reducing flow through the filter and negatively impacting filter effectiveness. PSI on the new filter with the Filter Fiber Stuff was 7 PSI. Looks like it was time for a new filter.
I am currently working on a process map of the AA process based on my experience to help others along if they choose to go this route. .
Thanks to everyone for their help through this very frustrating process!!
I do have some staining re-appearing but is is light and the spots are rather small.... will most likely do this again this fall followed by a partial drain to get the bulk of the iron out of the water.
I have to say that installing a new filter cartridge and using the Filter Fiber Stuff from Jacks made a near immediate impact on the cloudy water. Pressures were pretty high with the old filter (14 PSI Clean) most likely reducing flow through the filter and negatively impacting filter effectiveness. PSI on the new filter with the Filter Fiber Stuff was 7 PSI. Looks like it was time for a new filter.
I am currently working on a process map of the AA process based on my experience to help others along if they choose to go this route. .
Thanks to everyone for their help through this very frustrating process!!
- Jan 14, 2016
- 141
- Pool Size
- 12000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
Some stains are beginning to re-appear. I am keeping FC as low as possible, PH between 7 & 7.2 & Jack's Pink between 12 & 18Excellent news. Cheers to clear
What would you recommend to treat the returning stains?
Are the stains within reach and small areas? If so, lately I've been using a dishwasher wand with the fill-able handle, loading with a mix 50/50 ascorbic acid and water, to spot treat areas like steps, then adding my weekly top up dose of sequestrant. I don't otherwise adjust water when doing "direct application."
You might also try keeping your sequestrant level a smidge higher, eg 20, to see if that helps.
You might also try keeping your sequestrant level a smidge higher, eg 20, to see if that helps.
- Jan 14, 2016
- 141
- Pool Size
- 12000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
Re: Should I perform an ascorbic acid treatment?
Thanks, most of the stains are in 4-6 ft of water so I will have to figure out a way to spot-treat those.
Just so I know that I understand, there is no need to drop the FC to zero for the spot treatments, correct?
Thanks, most of the stains are in 4-6 ft of water so I will have to figure out a way to spot-treat those.
Just so I know that I understand, there is no need to drop the FC to zero for the spot treatments, correct?