Need help in decision on new pump and filter to power Paramount PCC2000 cleaner

[drobins9]

Hi, I purchased ahome a couple years ago with a pool estimated at 30,000 gallons. I have a spa and a waterfall. The pool has a Paramount PCC2000 in-groundfloor cleaner system. It used to staypretty clean, but the jets don't cycle and clean appropriately (apparentlycaused by low pressure), and there is a lot of dirt build-up on the floor. I believe I need a new pump and filter basedon lots of research and conversations, and would greatly appreciate any inputand advice you can provide before I pull the trigger in purchasing andinstalling this equipment. Thank you in advance for any help or wisdom you can provide!!

Current Equipment/Setup

• Water comes in from one skimmer and the main drain (or the spa main drain, when the spa is on) to a Flopro 1.5hp FHPM1.5, then goes to a Triton II FLT TR50 sand filter. The water goes out (when the spa is not on) to a Jandy valve that splits pressure between the Paramount PCC2000 floor cleaner system that rotates jets around the pool and two fixed pop-up jets that spray toward the main drain. I understand that is how the PCC2000 systems generally work- most jets rotate, but two jets always stay on and shoot toward the main drain.
• The Flopro pump works, but probably not well. About 1.5 years ago, it ran dry for a long time due to a problem. It is very noisy and seems to get a little noisier as time goes on.
• The sand filter has probably never been changed. I'm guessing it is about 7 years old. When I backwash, lots of dirty water comes out, so I am assuming it works, at least to some degree.
• My sand filter registers about 8psi whether it is on or off. I'm guessing the pressure gauge is broken.
• The Paramount PCC2000 only registers as much as about 12psi, and that is if I use the valve to send all water to it. It requires 18-28psi to operate properly, with 20psi being the optimal pressure. There was a time when funneling all water to it would get it to the 20-24psi level.
• Separately, I have a second skimmer that goes in to a Hayward SP2605X7 pump and outputs to the waterfall.

Recommendations I havereceived

• The pool builder said the pump and filter are not what they installed (apparently a prior homeowner replaced them with lower-cost options), and are not appropriate for the PCC2000 system. They recommend replacing the pump with a 2HP Hayward Tri-Star pump, and the filter with a Jandy CV340 cartridge filter.
• A different pool builder that installs Paramount systems recommends that the PCC2000 system utilize its own pump. He said I should make sure I get a "whisper flow" pump, as a "super flow" pump would not provide enough water for the PCC2000 system.
• The Paramount (PCC2000) engineer said my sand filter is "absolutely too small," and I need a minimum 100gpm filter. He said there should not be a dial valve- if it has a valve, it should be mounted on a pipe separately (it is.) He said a 1.5hp pump is "iffy", especially with a spa, and I would generally require a 2hp pump with a spa. He said a cartridge filter is probably better, and it should be a good size- 400 to 450.

What I am thinking

• I have read a lot about filters. Internet articles seem to recommend cartridge filters. Internet people seem to lean heavily toward sand filters. I like the lower long-term maintenance of the sand filter, but am leaning toward the cartridge filter based on (1) the high flow I require, (2) the better filtration (understanding sand must be "just fine"), and (3) the recommendation of Paramount. If I go with a cartridge filter, what I read is "bigger is always better". Thus, instead of the CV340 recommended by my pool builder or the CV460 that would fit more closely with Paramount's recommendation of "400 to 450", I think I would pay the extra couple hundred dollars for the CV580, which theoretically would give more filtration capacity and allow a little longer between filter washes.
• I am planning to get the Hayward Tristar 2HP motor, since I understand "bigger is not necessarily better," and it seems like 2HP is the size I need. I haven't seen any reason to look for alternative brands or pumps.

What I am wondering

• Instead of leaving it configured like it is now, should I put the Paramount PCC2000 on its own pump? If I did that, perhaps I would hook it up to the pump that runs the waterfall and have a motorized Jandy valve to choose between the two. But, I'm not sure if the pump needed by the PCC2000 would be too much for the waterfall. Or even if this is necessary or helpful. If I can get it to run properly with the existing plumbing, that probably makes the most sense. (I’m assuming the dedicated jets that shoot into the main drain should be running while the PCC2000 is running…)
• It looks like "WhisperFlo" is a Pentair model. Would the Hayward Tristar be equivalent to the "Whisper flow, not Super flow" direction I was given?
• Would there be any reason to consider a 2-speed or variable pump?
• I see different model numbers for Hayward Tristar 2HP pumps. Are there differences in what I could/should choose, or are the model numbers simply differences like variable speed, etc.?
• Do I need to buy a new pump? I understand in some cases, it is possible to simply get a new motor and impeller. I wonder if I could upgrade the current pump to what I need instead. I'm not sure how much money this would save or if it would make sense from a durability standpoint either, though.
• I've never worked on pool equipment. I assume it is no different than fixing a sprinkler system as far as the PVC fittings and glue?
• I think what I am reading and inferring is I don’t need to mount the pump or the new filter to the concrete pad? If I just set everything down, line it up, and connect it, it should all stay put and work fine?
• I have seen some references to "flexible PVC" that seem to say they work fine in above-ground plumbing applications.. Is there any reason I shouldn't use flexible PVC in connection of the new system?

 

[Jimrahbe]

D,

Welcome to TFP... A Great resource for all your pool related questions...

I do not have an in-floor system, but do think that the only way to go would be with a large variable speed pump. This would allow you to run at a low speed when just circulating water and at a much higher speed when running your in-floor system.

Do you have some type of automation that controls the Pool/Spa/In-Floor operation?

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.

 

[proavia]

Welcome to TFP!

My responses are in Blue within the context of your initial post

Hi, I purchased ahome a couple years ago with a pool estimated at 30,000 gallons. I have a spa and a waterfall. The pool has a Paramount PCC2000 in-groundfloor cleaner system. It used to staypretty clean, but the jets don't cycle and clean appropriately (apparentlycaused by low pressure), and there is a lot of dirt build-up on the floor. I believe I need a new pump and filter basedon lots of research and conversations, and would greatly appreciate any inputand advice you can provide before I pull the trigger in purchasing andinstalling this equipment. Thank you in advance for any help or wisdom you can provide!!

Current Equipment/Setup

• Water comes in from one skimmer and the main drain (or the spa main drain, when the spa is on) to a Flopro 1.5hp FHPM1.5, then goes to a Triton II FLT TR50 sand filter. The water goes out (when the spa is not on) to a Jandy valve that splits pressure between the Paramount PCC2000 floor cleaner system that rotates jets around the pool and two fixed pop-up jets that spray toward the main drain. I understand that is how the PCC2000 systems generally work- most jets rotate, but two jets always stay on and shoot toward the main drain. While I have a different brand of infloor, they all work about the same
• The Flopro pump works, but probably not well. About 1.5 years ago, it ran dry for a long time due to a problem. It is very noisy and seems to get a little noisier as time goes on. It may be that the motor bearings need replaced. I can't speak to whether it would be worth it or not as I'm not familiar with that brand of pump
• The sand filter has probably never been changed. I'm guessing it is about 7 years old. When I backwash, lots of dirty water comes out, so I am assuming it works, at least to some degree. Sand doesn't wear out - so no need to change. A good cleaning of the sand in the filter may be in order. See this post: Deep Cleaning a Sand Filter
• My sand filter registers about 8psi whether it is on or off. I'm guessing the pressure gauge is broken. Time to replace that faulty gauge. I have a nice glycerin filled gauge I got here: TFTestkits.net
• The Paramount PCC2000 only registers as much as about 12psi, and that is if I use the valve to send all water to it. It requires 18-28psi to operate properly, with 20psi being the optimal pressure. There was a time when funneling all water to it would get it to the 20-24psi level. How confident are you that the gauge is correct? Have you opened the water valve and inspected the inside (gears, etc.)? Is there some type of strainer or filter inside that may be block ( I know there's a brand out there that has one, but can't remember which one)?
• Separately, I have a second skimmer that goes in to a Hayward SP2605X7 pump and outputs to the waterfall.

Recommendations I havereceived

• The pool builder said the pump and filter are not what they installed (apparently a prior homeowner replaced them with lower-cost options), and are not appropriate for the PCC2000 system. They recommend replacing the pump with a 2HP Hayward Tri-Star pump, and the filter with a Jandy CV340 cartridge filter. Did the pool builder say what they did initial install on the pool when it was new? You may want to consider a variable speed pump. This will allow you to fine tune the system. Running at a higher rpm when using the infloor for cleaning and a lower rpm to save money on electricity when not needing the infloor to clean.
• A different pool builder that installs Paramount systems recommends that the PCC2000 system utilize its own pump. He said I should make sure I get a "whisper flow" pump, as a "super flow" pump would not provide enough water for the PCC2000 system. I personally wouldn't put the infloor on it's own pump - cause then you'd need another filter to clean the water before it gets to the water valve - you don't want to pump unfiltered water through the water valve. And why use the extra electricity to run a second pump? You may want to consider the Hayward EcoStar SP3400 VSP (3HP I think) or the Pentair equivalent. I am able to run my SP3400 at 2800 rpm for satisfactory infloor cleaning and 1100 rpm at other times. It uses about 1500 watts at 2800 rpm and 110 watts at 1100 rpm.
• The Paramount (PCC2000) engineer said my sand filter is "absolutely too small," and I need a minimum 100gpm filter. He said there should not be a dial valve- if it has a valve, it should be mounted on a pipe separately (it is.) He said a 1.5hp pump is "iffy", especially with a spa, and I would generally require a 2hp pump with a spa. He said a cartridge filter is probably better, and it should be a good size- 400 to 450.

What I am thinking

• I have read a lot about filters. Internet articles seem to recommend cartridge filters. Internet people seem to lean heavily toward sand filters. I like the lower long-term maintenance of the sand filter, but am leaning toward the cartridge filter based on (1) the high flow I require, (2) the better filtration (understanding sand must be "just fine"), and (3) the recommendation of Paramount. If I go with a cartridge filter, what I read is "bigger is always better". Thus, instead of the CV340 recommended by my pool builder or the CV460 that would fit more closely with Paramount's recommendation of "400 to 450", I think I would pay the extra couple hundred dollars for the CV580, which theoretically would give more filtration capacity and allow a little longer between filter washes. I have a Hayward 36" sand filter and love it. I'm personally not a big fan of DE, but others here swear by them. Same can be said for cartridge filters. It basically comes down to what you like. That being said, bigger is usually always better with a filter - regardless of media type. Bigger requires less maintenance in general.
• I am planning to get the Hayward Tristar 2HP motor, since I understand "bigger is not necessarily better," and it seems like 2HP is the size I need. I haven't seen any reason to look for alternative brands or pumps. Does your pool presently have any automation or do you plan to add any at a future time? It's always better to stick with one manufacturer if you have or will have automation. Many here lean toward Pentair for pumps, SWCG and automation. It's really a Chevy vs. Ford kind of thing. One exception is heater brand - the fav among members is Raypak - do to less moving parts and easier service - and the heater will integrate into most automation systems, regardless of heater brand..

What I am wondering

• Instead of leaving it configured like it is now, should I put the Paramount PCC2000 on its own pump? If I did that, perhaps I would hook it up to the pump that runs the waterfall and have a motorized Jandy valve to choose between the two. But, I'm not sure if the pump needed by the PCC2000 would be too much for the waterfall. Or even if this is necessary or helpful. If I can get it to run properly with the existing plumbing, that probably makes the most sense. (I’m assuming the dedicated jets that shoot into the main drain should be running while the PCC2000 is running…) Again, I would NOT put the PCC200 on it's own pump - unless you also add a filter for it.
• It looks like "WhisperFlo" is a Pentair model. Would the Hayward Tristar be equivalent to the "Whisper flow, not Super flow" direction I was given? I'm hoping the mas985 see this thread - as he's one of our pump experts.
• Would there be any reason to consider a 2-speed or variable pump?
• I see different model numbers for Hayward Tristar 2HP pumps. Are there differences in what I could/should choose, or are the model numbers simply differences like variable speed, etc.?
• Do I need to buy a new pump? I understand in some cases, it is possible to simply get a new motor and impeller. I wonder if I could upgrade the current pump to what I need instead. I'm not sure how much money this would save or if it would make sense from a durability standpoint either, though.
• I've never worked on pool equipment. I assume it is no different than fixing a sprinkler system as far as the PVC fittings and glue? Yup - pretty much - except larger diameter fittings and a more confined work space usually.
• I think what I am reading and inferring is I don’t need to mount the pump or the new filter to the concrete pad? If I just set everything down, line it up, and connect it, it should all stay put and work fine? Neither of mine are bolted down. And if my filter with 700# of sand in it moves, I have bigger problems.
• I have seen some references to "flexible PVC" that seem to say they work fine in above-ground plumbing applications.. Is there any reason I shouldn't use flexible PVC in connection of the new system?

You may want to do the deep clean of your sand filter first - that I linked to above. And also inspect the PCC2000 water valve for correct function. You definitely need a new pressure gauge for the filter - Even if you ultimately end up replacing the filter, you will have a high quality pressure gauge to use with it.. As for the pump - if you keep the one you have, you will eventually need a new motor for it - and it seems you may already have some bearing issues with your present motor.

Another option you have in the way of cleaning is going to a robot and abandoning your infloor for cleaning purposes. They are self powered and don't rely on the pump running for power. I think they run on 12 or 24 volt current supplied from the included power receptacle. They seem to do a better, more consistent job of cleaning too. I'd already be using a robot, but I'm the original owner of my pool and have a lifetime warranty on the moving parts of my infloor system (and have an energy efficient pump).

So, you can see - there's a lot to think about before you jump into anything you mentioned. Hopefully you start with the filter deep clean and go from there. Feel free to ask an other questions you may have. Others will be along to offer their opinions.

How are you testing your water? What testkit are you using? How are you chlorinating?

One more thing - a bit of house keeping. Please fill out your signature so we know your pool size, filter and pump model numbers, etc. This will help you in not needing to type it again and help us to assist you without having to ask you for this info.

 

[drobins9]

Hi- Thank you very much for the responses. I thought the forum would e-mail me when there was a response (I now figured out how to do that), but I was pleasantly surprised to see your thorough replies when I searched for the thread. In response to your questions and thoughts:

• I know the sand can be changed, but the in-floor cleaner has never worked great (it was broken when I moved in, and I had it fixed), although it previously worked better. My thought was since the builder said the specs are too low and the manufacturer of the system said the filter is "absolutely too small," (and half the gpm capacity of what they say I need) I should probably replace it.
• I am not confident the pool cleaner pressure gauge is accurate, but I am confident there is nothing in it. I have opened it. That doesn't mean the gauge isn't simply faulty, of course. I am confident the pressure is low, as it does not have the force it once did, and the rotation cycle is not working properly. There is not a strainer in the module, but there isn't any debris or anything in there, either.
• My main question: I am curious about your reference to a variable speed pump. The way my pool is currently set up (and I assumed the way it is designed) is that the in-floor cleaner would run any time the pump is on. The pump that runs the filter has three outlets- the dedicated jets to the main drain, the cleaner that alternates the other jets, and the spa. The spa is the only one with an automatic jandy valve, and it is either in full spa or spillover mode. But, a manual jandy valve splits water between the dedicated floor jets and the rotating cleaner system. Is that not normal? Is that bad? I thought having the cleaner on was just the way the pool gets water. The pool doesn't have another water source... My thought is if the PCC2000 was on its own pump, though, it would not need a filter since it just sprays water into the main drain, which would have the filter. However, you're probably saying it needs a filter because I don't want debris making it into the PCC2000 system?
• I'm not sure what you mean by automation, but you'd probably say my pool has it. I have a Hayward Prologic control module and a few automated jandy valves. I bought the Aqualogic remote control module and upgraded my main board to support it, but the Aqualogic hardly ever works. The control module obviously is programmed to run the pool, waterfall, etc., at different times.

Thank you again for your help and knowledge!

 

[drobins9]

I just saw your notes at the bottom. My pool does not have anything to attach a robot cleaning system, so I would have to rig something up, which I'd rather not do if I can get the in-floor cleaner working. I have attached a manual vacuum to the skimmer and it quickly loses suction and the circular disc floats off, which is something else that suggests to me my pump is not as strong as it should be.

For testing my water, I was bringing it to a local pool store or Leslie's. Both have seemed to be good, and have not seemed to recommend anything I don't need. However, I just bought a K2006C test kit after reading recommendations, which I have used once so far. I notice that it doesn't have a few of the tests the other places run, so I may look at adding those. Also, I bought the non-salt kit, apparently, so I need to buy the salt mixture separately. I am generally using salt for chlorine, although I have used chlorine directly in the winter (the pool store says it is a waste to keep the salt level up when it is cold out since the salt won't make chlorine in the cold) or if it gets out of balance and needs a shock. I have seen the articles about using common household materials like bleach, and I think that will be my next venture.

I've never used a signature on a forum before, but I'll figure out how to add those details.

Thank you again!

 

[proavia]

My responses in blue again

I just saw your notes at the bottom. My pool does not have anything to attach a robot cleaning system, so I would have to rig something up, which I'd rather not do if I can get the in-floor cleaner working. I have attached a manual vacuum to the skimmer and it quickly loses suction and the circular disc floats off, which is something else that suggests to me my pump is not as strong as it should be. Robot needs a 110v outlet within a reasonable distance from the pool. I think most robots have a 50' cord. You plug it in and drop it in the water to clean. Just tossed out the robot idea in case repair of infloor cost is high.

For testing my water, I was bringing it to a local pool store or Leslie's. Both have seemed to be good, and have not seemed to recommend anything I don't need. However, I just bought a K2006C test kit after reading recommendations, which I have used once so far. I notice that it doesn't have a few of the tests the other places run, so I may look at adding those. Also, I bought the non-salt kit, apparently, so I need to buy the salt mixture separately. I am generally using salt for chlorine, although I have used chlorine directly in the winter (the pool store says it is a waste to keep the salt level up when it is cold out since the salt won't make chlorine in the cold) or if it gets out of balance and needs a shock. I have seen the articles about using common household materials like bleach, and I think that will be my next venture. We don't have a lot of faith in pool store testing. You can take a sample to 3 different pool stores and get three different results. And, no one is going to be as particular about your pool as you are. I see you have the K2006C. It has all the tests you need - except the salt test. You don't need any additional tests for TDS or any of the other stuff the PS lists on their printout that isn't already in the K2006C (and a salt test). Once the pool temp gets below about 60°, the SWCG usually won't work too well - that's why most with a SWCG use liquid bleach in the winter. Liquid bleach is also a great way to boost the chlorine level up just before and just after a heavy pool usage event.

I've never used a signature on a forum before, but I'll figure out how to add those details. Signature - click 'Settings' in upper right corner, then 'Edit Signature' on left side about half way down. Have a look at mine and a few other signatures to see how we did ours.

Thank you again!

Hi- Thank you very much for the responses. I thought the forum would e-mail me when there was a response (I now figured out how to do that), but I was pleasantly surprised to see your thorough replies when I searched for the thread. In response to your questions and thoughts:

• I know the sand can be changed, but the in-floor cleaner has never worked great (it was broken when I moved in, and I had it fixed), although it previously worked better. My thought was since the builder said the specs are too low and the manufacturer of the system said the filter is "absolutely too small," (and half the gpm capacity of what they say I need) I should probably replace it. I would try the deep clean I mentioned above - no need to change the sand. Once you list exactly what equipment you have (in your signature), we can probably make some further recommendations. Don't forget to list your Goldline Controls you mentioned in one of your other threads. The more info we have the better we can assist.
  
• I am not confident the pool cleaner pressure gauge is accurate, but I am confident there is nothing in it. I have opened it. That doesn't mean the gauge isn't simply faulty, of course. I am confident the pressure is low, as it does not have the force it once did, and the rotation cycle is not working properly. There is not a strainer in the module, but there isn't any debris or anything in there, either. Cool - as long as you opened it and checked it out. Many overlook opening to see if the internals are as they should be.
  
• My main question: I am curious about your reference to a variable speed pump. The way my pool is currently set up (and I assumed the way it is designed) is that the in-floor cleaner would run any time the pump is on. The pump that runs the filter has three outlets- the dedicated jets to the main drain, the cleaner that alternates the other jets, and the spa. The spa is the only one with an automatic jandy valve, and it is either in full spa or spillover mode. But, a manual jandy valve splits water between the dedicated floor jets and the rotating cleaner system. Is that not normal? Is that bad? I thought having the cleaner on was just the way the pool gets water. The pool doesn't have another water source... My thought is if the PCC2000 was on its own pump, though, it would not need a filter since it just sprays water into the main drain, which would have the filter. However, you're probably saying it needs a filter because I don't want debris making it into the PCC2000 system? Yes, you only want filtered water returning to the pool - regardless of how it gets returned. Here's how I have my VS pump set up - all water returned via infloor..... 2 hours AM and 2 hours PM at 2800 rpm. Allows infloor to actually clean the floor (about 1500 watts). -- 8 additional hours at 1100 rpm for filtering and circulation (108 watts). Water still returns via infloor, but heads don't pop all the way up. So, you need to have a higher rpm when needing to use the infloor cleaning and then can use a lower rpm the rest of the pump on time. This saves a good deal of electricity and helps keep the water better circulated.
  
• I'm not sure what you mean by automation, but you'd probably say my pool has it. I have a Hayward Prologic control module and a few automated jandy valves. I bought the Aqualogic remote control module and upgraded my main board to support it, but the Aqualogic hardly ever works. The control module obviously is programmed to run the pool, waterfall, etc., at different times. Yup, that's what I meant. Anything that 'automates' the pool (and spa). If you're having issues with your Aqualogic, there are several members who are more than willing to help you sort those out. BUT - for now, I'd recommend working on the filter deep clean first.

Thank you again for your help and knowledge!

Additionally, please post a full set of test results from your K2006C, your present water temp and the salt reading from your cell (maybe the PS salt test results too).

FC
CC
TA
CH
CYA
Temp
Salt

Hang with us and keep asking questions!