Need electrical help - new pool install

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mylostclub

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Jan 20, 2022
8
Texas
We are almost finished with a new pool install. To say the least, things have not gone well, hence the reason I am here. We have a 15K gallon inground pool that has been installed with complete Hayward equipment and the Omni system. The pool is completely installed, and despite a couple issues, it is almost complete. The couple issues have been drug out by the contractor, as well as subs who either don't show up, or don't want to put the time and effort in to troubleshooting the issue. Therefore, I am left at the point that I am trying to resolve these issues myself.
My concern today is the electrical for the pool. I will get into a complete setup in a minute, but in short, the GFCI breaker keeps tripping and will not stay on. The builder installed a 20amp GFCI which started tripping upon startup. To rule out the breaker being the issue, I went and bought a 30amp GFCI and installed, which trips the same as well. If the system is left off for a period of time, it usually takes about 15-20min before the gfci will trip. If you then reset it, it will trip immediately. However, if I place a standard 30amp double pole breaker in, the entire system runs fine, and will run forever without tripping.
I am pretty knowledgeable and handy when it comes to electrical, including knowing loads, limits, wiring capability, etc. I ran, installed, and wired the subpanel for the pool myself, from the main panel on one side of the house, to where the equipment would be located on the other side. I have a 200amp GE main panel with a 60amp breaker allocated for the subpanel, as well as a 125amp GE subpanel (exterior rated). The only items in the subpanel at this time are the breaker for the pool, and a separate stand-alone breaker for an individual exterior outlet. The subpanel came with a ground and neutral bar, both of which are run back to the main panel. The main panel has a grounding rod installed.
I know that the breaker is not tripping due to load, which is obvious. I know that the GFCI is tripping due to neutral/ground issue, but cannot figure out why. I have gone through ALL of the wiring and connections and cannot find any wiring that is loose, improperly installed, shorting out on something, wet, or taking the wrong path. There are also no wires that are left open, or at a "dead end". I have also reviewed all of the wiring recommendations and diagrams for each of the pieces of equipment, and can find no issues. At this point, I am at a loss, and am hoping that some electrical genius can chime in with some advice, or at least something to check out.
My equipment:
 - Hayward OmniHub
- Hayward Relay (1)
- 2 Hayward VSP pumps (1 for pool, 1 for waterwall)
- Hayward Chlorinator and cell
- Lights on waterwall and in pool
The wiring is as follows - Main panel to subpanel. Power runs from subpanel 30amp disconnect. Power then runs to a junction box where both pumps, chlorinator, OmniHub, and relay are all pigtailed together, and then power is run out to each device. The relay supplies power to a converter box, which runs power to the lights. Low voltage wires are run from lights, pumps, sensors - and are run to the OmniHub main box to control each device. The control panel/touchscreen is wired in to the OmniHub and powered by same.
 
mylostclub said:
power then runs to a junction box where both pumps, chlorinator, OmniHub, and relay are all pigtailed together, and then power is run out to each device.
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My,

VS pumps do not like to be tied directly into other pumps or equipment. They will often pop a GFCI breaker when they are. This is just due to the electrical noise they generate and not because of any real GFCI issue.

It makes zero sense to me to have a bunch of stuff tied together and running off of one GFCI.. Cost less but not a wise investment.

I suggest that each pump have its own GFCI breaker and an addition breaker for everything else. This way, if the problem continues, at least you will know which piece of equipment is popping the breaker.

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
Maybe post pics of the main panel, sub-panel and Omni panel - along with your equipment pad. Having a visual of what you have might help in identifying a possible solution.
 
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mylostclub said:
Power runs from subpanel 30amp disconnect. Power then runs to a junction box where both pumps, chlorinator, OmniHub, and relay are all pigtailed together, and then power is run out to each device.
Click to expand...

This is your issue. Each device needs it's own GFCI breaker providing power to it. They are each rated for a specific breaker and wire size and 100 % need to be wired independently in the sub-panel. It sounds as if you have the power supply and grounding/neutral to the sub panel wired correctly.
 
With a GFCI breaker you have to make sure the neutral wire off the breaker goes to the neutral bar and the neutral from the device it connect to goes into the back of the breaker. I made the mistake once of connecting both the device and the breaker neutral to the bar and it kept tripping.
 
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duckcmmndr said:
This is your issue. Each device needs it's own GFCI breaker providing power to it. They are each rated for a specific breaker and wire size and 100 % need to be wired independently in the sub-panel. It sounds as if you have the power supply and grounding/neutral to the sub panel wired correctly.
Click to expand...
That’s not necessarily true. That’s not how a gfci works.
 

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Wire4money said:
That’s not necessarily true. That’s not how a gfci works.
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I was not speaking as to how GFCI breakers work.

He said "Power then runs to a junction box where both pumps, chlorinator, OmniHub, and relay are all pigtailed together"

Everything is wired to a single breaker. So what size GFCI breaker is running all of this stuff? The purpose of a breaker is to trip if the load exceeds it's rating, thus protecting the wiring between the breaker and device. So for example, the pumps should each have like a 20 amp breaker with 12 ga wiring, etc... So if you have a breaker large enough to not trip with all that stuff running at the same time, if one item fails the wire from the Junction box to the failed item will likely smoke and catch fire before the breaker trips.

Lets use your logic and apply it correctly, put each device on it's own breaker and when you find one that trips its own GFCI breaker make sure there are no ground and neutral tied together anywhere in that circuit. <- That's 100% the correct way to do it.
 
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Thanks for all the input from everyone.
To answer a few of the questions noted:
- I understand that the 60amp breaker in the main panel, which supplies power to the subpanel that has a 125amp main breaker is not matching - however, this should not be a GFCI tripping issue, and is acceptable as the 60amp breaker at the main panel will be the load limit, and also plenty to power all pool equipment.
- The GFCI breaker for pool equipment that is in the sub panel, is wired correctly. It is a 20amp GFCI that has the black, red and neutral wires running to the 30amp disconnect straight from breaker - and then the neutral pigtail from breaker is run in to the neutral bus bar in subpanel.
- The 2 VSP pumps, along with the Chlorinator have all wiring run to a junction box, where they are tied together, and fed power from the disconnect. This also has been noted as acceptable by Hayward in their installation manual as it is powered by a "constant" power source.
- We have recently separated the wiring for the relay box (and the lights) from the junction box and ran this separately to its own breaker to reduce or eliminate the chance of any nuisance tripping. However, the installed snubber in the light's converter box should take care of any of that issue as well.
- We also recently changed the supply power going in to the OmniHub box from 230 to 120. However, after going back and looking at the Hayward manual, it says that it can be run either way by running L1 and L2 to the 2 wire connector for box for 230, or running L1 and Neutral to the 2 wire connector for 120.
-After recent changes - installed 20amp GFCI breaker, which to my surprise ran for about 3 hours, and the tripped again. Problem still exists!! Getting frustrating!!!
- I agree and understand that the GFCI tripping is directly related to a neutral/ground issue, and not an overload issue - but am unable to find where it is leaking power or shorting out on something.

hosseisemi - could you show me a picture of how your box/items are wired??​

Wire4money - that was my next step as well. Disconnect each item, one at a time in an attempt to determine which item is causing the issue.​

 
Also, just for note - electricians came out the other day in attempt to locate issue as well.
The 2 changes noted in last post were made, which did not resolve the issue.
In response to DuckCmmndr - we placed meter on each line going out of the 20amp GFCI with ALL equipment running at full speed. Each side of the breaker was putting out roughly 14.67 amps - Therefore, pulling 14.67 amps from the right leg, and 14.67 amps from the left leg, which is well within the 20amps provided by breaker.
 
Post a picture of your setup. At this point it makes 0 sense not to put each device on a GFCI. You can combine your lights and an outlet if you want. Let each device run for as long as it can and then see which breaker trips.
I have 2 pumps on a 30A, lights and outlet on a 20A along with the heater starter for a gas heater. The panel computer on its own 15A breaker (nonGFCI), and my shed on its own 20A GFCI. The main panel has 1 50A Breaker that runs this all fine.
 
mylostclub said:
Also, just for note - electricians came out the other day in attempt to locate issue as well.
The 2 changes noted in last post were made, which did not resolve the issue.
In response to DuckCmmndr - we placed meter on each line going out of the 2
Click to expand...
Just curious why the electrician you are using is resistant to putting the pumps on individual breakers? 3 people on this discussion have recommended that as a possible fix and I assume the electrician has countered this advice with some reasoning. Is it the cost of the breakers or running additional wiring?
 
mylostclub said:
we placed meter on each line going out of the 20amp GFCI with ALL equipment running at full speed. Each side of the breaker was putting out roughly 14.67 amps - Therefore, pulling 14.67 amps from the right leg, and 14.67 amps from the left leg, which is well within the 20amps provided by breaker.
Click to expand...

Actually no, NEC specifies no breaker shall be loaded at more then 80% of its rating. A 20 amp breaker should not have more then 16 amps of load. You are within 10% of maximum load on that circuit.

I can’t follow all the verbal description of your wiring and while it may sort of work it is no where near best practice for a pool electrical setup.
 

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