Need check valve?

[Poolser]

This one has been stumping me for awhile and have tried to troubleshoot and think I may have finally gotten there but want to double check.

My pump keeps loosing prime. Most days, it will re-prime itself but I would guess about once or twice a week it fails to prime and I have to manually pour water into the basket to get it to start. At first I thought it might have been due to low water level but I've tested that theory and it didn't seem to hold.

When my pump shuts off, I can hear my filter gurgle and start to drain. This backwashes into the pump and subsequently back into the pool as my pump basket continues to drain. I also notice water on my pad where my equipment is. It is typically around the filter/pump but would assume it comes from the filter as it sits up slightly higher than the pump. I've lubed and/or inspected: pump drain plugs, multiport, filter, valves.

Today I did more testing and at first turned on just the spa intake/outflow and was able to maintain prime with little gurgling coming from the filter and did not notice any drainage from the pump basket. I was then able to turn the outflow back on to go to pool/spa and had a similar result, thus eliminating my theory that it was a pressure side leak.

That leads me to believe it is coming from the skimmer baskets/main drain side. With the pump off I switched from Spa only intake to the main pool with all 3 valves off, I got a little gurgling but then it stopped (likely air trapped in the pipes from before). However, when any of the three lines are open (2 skimmer, 1 main drain), the filter will drain and the pump loses prime. Note: this happens when I run the pump with just one valve open at a time and then shut it off so it is happening on all 3 lines together or independently.

My theory now is that I should have a check valve installed between the pump and the pool lines. My assumption is that the spa doesn't drain because the equipment is close to the water level of the spa (estimated to be around 1 foot higher), but uphill from the water level of the pool (estimated at around 3 feet). This doesn't seem to explain why I get water on my equipment pad though. Is my logic correct to start or am I chasing down the wrong hole?

 

[Texas Splash]

I think it's safe to say you have an air leak somewhere which explains the water moving and gurgling when you turn the system off. Maybe it's a check valve, but I would explore all the easy areas first. Remember that with an air leak like this you won't necessarily see a water leak while running, but air can get pulled in once off. When you turn off the system listen carefully for any hissing. Check the filter center band seal, pressure gauge/relief valve, Pump lid O-ring, etc. Process of elimination before you go into replacing parts.

 

[Poolser]

I think it's safe to say you have an air leak somewhere which explains the water moving and gurgling when you turn the system off. Maybe it's a check valve, but I would explore all the easy areas first. Remember that with an air leak like this you won't necessarily see a water leak while running, but air can get pulled in once off. When you turn off the system listen carefully for any hissing. Check the filter center band seal, pressure gauge/relief valve, Pump lid O-ring, etc. Process of elimination before you go into replacing parts.

I think I have gone through all those things so far.

Filter center band has been inspected with no signs of wear and lubed up, pressure gauge checked and lubed. Pump lid inspected and lubed. I've also eliminated those items from the aspect that if I have the system just pulling from the Spa, there is no leakage. I believe that tells me that is has to be between the 3 way valve and the intakes for those 3 lines. Since when the lines are off it holds pressure, that tells me it would be from those valve lines back to the pool. All 3 would have to have some sort of leak since just having any one of them on causes the leak. I've also done the water test over all of these areas, both with the pump running as well as when off and didn't see any difference in drainage.

I was also reading up on my pump and it seems it was likely plumbed too close to the valves as well. According to the documentation, it should be a min of 5x times the width of pipe which is 2 in. That would be a min 10in setback and my current one is maybe 6in. It also says to use a check valve when there is "significant height difference" but doesn't define that. I think I need to add a check valve and move the pump back on the pad.

I'm 100% with you that I don't want to go moving equipment and making cuts if I don't have to but I can't seem to figure out what else it might be.

 

[Poolser]

To add, this still doesn't explain why I would be getting water on my pad near the filter and pump though. Maybe 2 different issues?

 

[PoolGate]

Gas heaters create a lot of water when they run. Is the water around the heater as well?

 

[Poolser]

Gas heaters create a lot of water when they run. Is the water around the heater as well?

No, there is no water around the heater. We haven't used the heater since we moved in 8 months ago and likely won't use it often. That was another area I was researching was to essentially add a heater bypass at some point.

 

[duckcmmndr]

If your equipment is above the waterline...a check valve may help you hold prime when the pump is not running. As for the wet pad, I would start by clearing it completely of all grass and dirt. Get it 100% clean that way it will dry out and you can see where the water is coming from. As much dirt and grass as you have on the pad it might just be from that.

 

[Poolser]

If your equipment is above the waterline...a check valve may help you hold prime when the pump is not running. As for the wet pad, I would start by clearing it completely of all grass and dirt. Get it 100% clean that way it will dry out and you can see where the water is coming from. As much dirt and grass as you have on the pad it might just be from that.

I knew I should have cleaned up before picture time
I cleaned it off the pad and tried to give a little buffer to the equipment to hopefully help. Doing that I did note that there was a 'berm' on the other side of the pump which would have prevented water flow that direction so that could explain why it looked like it was pooling between the pump and filter.

 

[Poolser]

If your equipment is above the waterline...a check valve may help you hold prime when the pump is not running. As for the wet pad, I would start by clearing it completely of all grass and dirt. Get it 100% clean that way it will dry out and you can see where the water is coming from. As much dirt and grass as you have on the pad it might just be from that.

I’m definitely getting water at the bottom of my filter. The problem is I can’t tell where it is coming from. There is no visible water running down the side of the filter. I’ve checked around the drain, pressure gauge, and band clamp and all appear dry. I also checked around the multiport and nothing there either.

 

[Texas Splash]

I’m definitely getting water at the bottom of my filter.

I hope you don't have a hairline crack under the vessel itself. Maybe something residual from the Feb '21 freeze?

 

[Poolser]

I hope you don't have a hairline crack under the vessel itself. Maybe something residual from the Feb '21 freeze?

I was wondering that myself. Luckily we never lost power and my equipment was running in freeze mode the entire time. What would be the best way to diagnose that? I kind of strung some TP around the band to double check it’s not coming from there.

 

[Texas Splash]

I kind of strung some TP around the band to double check it’s not coming from there.

Ha ha. Now that would've been funny to see. But if you caught no moisture underneath, I suppose it's good.

 

[Poolser]

Ha ha. Now that would've been funny to see. But if you caught no moisture underneath, I suppose it's good.

Well I’ve learned not to take pictures so you can’t see what my setup looks like .

Good news / bad news - good news is I used clean TP, bad news is it was still dry. I thought I could see a little swirling in the water by the bottom of the filter. I’m assuming this means there is a crack somewhere in the bottom. Wonder if it’s time to try out that home warranty and see if I can get a new filter.

Side question - if that is the case, would I be best to switch to a cartridge filter? Currently have a DEV60 DE Filter. I watched the YouTube video that came up on my feed this weekend and seems like that’s what everyone recommended. Did a small amount of research and assume I would want a 300+ sq foot one? Pool is somewhere around 20-22k gallons and it seemed like they said the bigger the better.

 

[PoolGate]

Well I’ve learned not to take pictures so you can’t see what my setup looks like .

Good news / bad news - good news is I used clean TP, bad news is it was still dry. I thought I could see a little swirling in the water by the bottom of the filter. I’m assuming this means there is a crack somewhere in the bottom. Wonder if it’s time to try out that home warranty and see if I can get a new filter.

Side question - if that is the case, would I be best to switch to a cartridge filter? Currently have a DEV60 DE Filter. I watched the YouTube video that came up on my feed this weekend and seems like that’s what everyone recommended. Did a small amount of research and assume I would want a 300+ sq foot one? Pool is somewhere around 20-22k gallons and it seemed like they said the bigger the better.

IMO, DE and sand filters are obsolete. I have used both. I would only go with a cartridge filter. I clean the cartridges 1-2 times per season (beginning and end) it takes about an hour. Cartridges last 3-4 seasons, maybe more. No mess with cartridges. No backwashing. No multiport valves to fail. Any 4 cartridge system (300 sq feet) or better would work fine for you.

 

[Poolser]

IMO, DE and sand filters are obsolete. I have used both. I would only go with a cartridge filter. I clean the cartridges 1-2 times per season (beginning and end) it takes about an hour. Cartridges last 3-4 seasons, maybe more. No mess with cartridges. No backwashing. No multiport valves to fail. Any 4 cartridge system (300 sq feet) or better would work fine for you.

Thanks! Appreciate the reply.

 

[Poolser]

So my warranty was denied because they claimed it was a "manufacturing defect". Now my question is what to do next. My thoughts were:
1) See if I could find the crack and try and patch it (I would anticipate this to be a temporary fix but might buy me some time)
2) Replace the bottom of the filter housing - estimated to be around $450
3) Replace the filter with a new cartridge filter - estimated to be around $1400

I would likely DIY whichever route I go so would just have parts. #2 is obviously the cheapest but not sure how long the filter would still last. I would estimate it to be about 10 years old already. I did just recently replace all the grids inside so those are all good. #3 I would also redo all the plumbing but would also give me an excuse to redo parts of it I wanted to do already. I can afford the extra cost to just get the new filter but just want to make sure I make the best use of my dollars.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[duckcmmndr]

Did you ever locate the source of the leak?

 

[Poolser]

Did you ever locate the source of the leak?

I haven't taken the filter cartridges out to find the actual spot of the leak yet. I just haven't had time during the week. However, it seems to be getting worse. What once seemed to be just some water around the filter is now obviously coming out when the system is turned on. You can quickly see the water coming out from around the legs on the bottom.

 

[duckcmmndr]

I would not waste any money on replacing half of the filter. I don't know if you will be able to patch it and make it hold...maybe if you could do some patching from the inside. That would stand a better chance.

Cartage filters the size you need can be had for less than $1k, but the better ones are a little over that price.

You have Pentair so staying with that:
Pentair Clean & Clear Plus 320 Cartridge Filter - EC160340 - INYOPools.com

 

[Poolser]

Well my luck with this doesn’t get much better. Ordered a Waterway Cartridge filter as it was less expensive than the Pentair and I ‘should’ have gotten it sooner. Unfortunately the shipper put in the wrong phone number so there was a delay on getting the delivery scheduled. That pushed me back another week and finally got to install it yesterday.

I was going to reconfigure my pad a little but in the end, it just wouldn’t work out the way I wanted. The piping just wouldn’t work well without lots of turns. Finally got it situated and the piping done, waited for the solvent to set and turned everything on. No leaks from the pipes. Whew. But where there was a leak… I opened the air release valve on the filter and thought air was coming out odd but thought maybe this is something new. Then, the water started coming out. There was a hairline crack in the air release valve. So now I can’t run my pump at all because it’s constant water coming out of the crack. Now I’m waiting until they open tomorrow to place a warranty request hoping they will at least overnight me the part.

In the meantime, testing my water and trying to maintain my FC. Running my robot to keep water moving and will try and scrub down the pool a few times a day. Luckily my chemicals were in fairly good balance to start with so hopefully can maintain for a few days.