My Stenner install and bulk bleach storage strategy
- Thread starter JayG
- Start date
Hi Jay,
I like what you are doing here. I'm wondering if you have done any research on the long term effects of bleach on your Shurflo transfer pump. I'm thinking about using that exact pump as a direct chlorine delivery pump, and it would have liquid chlorine in it 24 hours a day, instead of just doing short term transfers like you are doing. Just wondering how long it would hold up to the chorine before it starts to eat away at seal, etc.
You see, I currently have an automated chlorine feeder that monitors ORP, then fires a solenoid that releases DiChlor into a tank to chlorinate. I've been using it for 8 years, thinking it was a wonderful product. But, when I couldn't get my pool under control this year, I found my CYA was over 600 by using only DiChlor for all these years. So, my plan is to replace the solenoid with a pump that will dump in a few ounces of liquid chlorine, instead of DiChlor. This means the chlorine will always be in the pump, until the demand is needed.
I know my modification will do exactly what I want. I'm just not sure how the pump will hold up with chlorine always in it. Even if it gets eaten away in a few years, I wouldn't mind putting a $60 pump on every year or two. Right now, the DiChlor eats away the solenoid about every 3 years, and that is a $150 replacement. I know that I could use a peristaltic pump like the stenner uses, put those are low flow. The system only turns the solenoid on for 10 seconds to feed, and I want to pump in several ounces in that 10 second time. A peristaltic pump won't do that.
Sorry for the long explaination. I just wanted you to know why I was asking. Have you done any research that gives you an idea if the shurflo would hold up for me?
I like what you are doing here. I'm wondering if you have done any research on the long term effects of bleach on your Shurflo transfer pump. I'm thinking about using that exact pump as a direct chlorine delivery pump, and it would have liquid chlorine in it 24 hours a day, instead of just doing short term transfers like you are doing. Just wondering how long it would hold up to the chorine before it starts to eat away at seal, etc.
You see, I currently have an automated chlorine feeder that monitors ORP, then fires a solenoid that releases DiChlor into a tank to chlorinate. I've been using it for 8 years, thinking it was a wonderful product. But, when I couldn't get my pool under control this year, I found my CYA was over 600 by using only DiChlor for all these years. So, my plan is to replace the solenoid with a pump that will dump in a few ounces of liquid chlorine, instead of DiChlor. This means the chlorine will always be in the pump, until the demand is needed.
I know my modification will do exactly what I want. I'm just not sure how the pump will hold up with chlorine always in it. Even if it gets eaten away in a few years, I wouldn't mind putting a $60 pump on every year or two. Right now, the DiChlor eats away the solenoid about every 3 years, and that is a $150 replacement. I know that I could use a peristaltic pump like the stenner uses, put those are low flow. The system only turns the solenoid on for 10 seconds to feed, and I want to pump in several ounces in that 10 second time. A peristaltic pump won't do that.
Sorry for the long explaination. I just wanted you to know why I was asking. Have you done any research that gives you an idea if the shurflo would hold up for me?
Hi Bruce,
I have not done a bunch of research on the long-term effects of bleach. My reasoning was that the pump head was all plastic and used plastic fittings to connect--I figured it would be OK for occasional use. I worried that brass or stainless steel might be attacked by strong bleach (or so I thought), so I figured plastic would be safer. I'm sure that there are others on this forum who would be better able to answer your question. Otherwise, you might try calling Pentair as they make the Shurflo. You will need to meter your LC carefully as this pump will drain a 1-gallon container almost as fast as I can open the next one (let's call it 10-20 seconds). You might only need 5-10 seconds of operation to dose your pool FC.
The benefit of the Stenner is its slow and steady dosing. I figure on ~195 minutes a day to deliver a 2 ppm FC bump to my pool each day (I have the 3 gal/day tubing). Stenner sells larger tubing (10 gal/day) that would cut that runtime down by more than a factor of 3.
Good luck with your project.
Jay
I have not done a bunch of research on the long-term effects of bleach. My reasoning was that the pump head was all plastic and used plastic fittings to connect--I figured it would be OK for occasional use. I worried that brass or stainless steel might be attacked by strong bleach (or so I thought), so I figured plastic would be safer. I'm sure that there are others on this forum who would be better able to answer your question. Otherwise, you might try calling Pentair as they make the Shurflo. You will need to meter your LC carefully as this pump will drain a 1-gallon container almost as fast as I can open the next one (let's call it 10-20 seconds). You might only need 5-10 seconds of operation to dose your pool FC.
The benefit of the Stenner is its slow and steady dosing. I figure on ~195 minutes a day to deliver a 2 ppm FC bump to my pool each day (I have the 3 gal/day tubing). Stenner sells larger tubing (10 gal/day) that would cut that runtime down by more than a factor of 3.
Good luck with your project.
Jay
Thanks for the reply Jay,
I knew the model Shurflo you have could move about 6 GPM, which is WAY more than I need. But, that rate is using the 3/4 inch connection and hose. I was planing on coupling down to a smaller hose, and putting a flow valve on it too. My system will only turn the pump on for 10 seconds at a time, and I could adjust that lower if I want. Shurflo also has several 1 GPM pumps. But, they are all DC instead of AC powered. By the time I build up the power supply to convert to DC that pump will cost more than just restricting the $68 model unit.
I'll email Shurflo, and see what they say about long term exposure to the bleach. But, if anyone reading this knows of any pumps that can handle bleach directly, and have a flow rate of around 1 GPM, please let me know.
I knew the model Shurflo you have could move about 6 GPM, which is WAY more than I need. But, that rate is using the 3/4 inch connection and hose. I was planing on coupling down to a smaller hose, and putting a flow valve on it too. My system will only turn the pump on for 10 seconds at a time, and I could adjust that lower if I want. Shurflo also has several 1 GPM pumps. But, they are all DC instead of AC powered. By the time I build up the power supply to convert to DC that pump will cost more than just restricting the $68 model unit.
I'll email Shurflo, and see what they say about long term exposure to the bleach. But, if anyone reading this knows of any pumps that can handle bleach directly, and have a flow rate of around 1 GPM, please let me know.
I found this site, that lists chemical compatibility. It says that Viton, which is what Shurflo says in their valves are made from. They actually seem to use Viton and Santoprene interchangeably.
http://www.customadvanced.com/chemi...m+Hypochlorite+(Aqueous)+(Chlorox)&rubber=FKM
I know the 2088 series is 6 GPM, and way above the flow rate I need. Shurflo has a 8000 series pump that is 3/8 valves, and only 1 GPM, so that would be a better match. But, I can find the 2088 for only $68, where the 8000 series is $130. For the price difference, I would just throttle down the 2088.
http://www.customadvanced.com/chemi...m+Hypochlorite+(Aqueous)+(Chlorox)&rubber=FKM
I know the 2088 series is 6 GPM, and way above the flow rate I need. Shurflo has a 8000 series pump that is 3/8 valves, and only 1 GPM, so that would be a better match. But, I can find the 2088 for only $68, where the 8000 series is $130. For the price difference, I would just throttle down the 2088.
Just a quick update: we've had about 7-10 days in the high 80s/mid 90s and the cistern contents have crept up to 56°F. Not to bad, as it's still 30-40°F below ambient. I'm hoping that will stabilize at around 70°F by mid-late July. That would still keep degradation in the latter half of the season to <10% (e.g., 12.5% >>11.1%). Or I could switch to 8.25% to slow degradation a bit if it makes sense based on what I can find.
Jay,
Thanks for all the info. I hope the temps are holding steady! I am about to put in a pool roughly the size of yours and also have the space and no permitting issues that would prevent me from building a setup like yours. The area where I would bury the 55gal drum is completely shaded all day and is where my equipment pad will be.
My decision point is between this type system and a 60K SWG. I cant find anywhere to buy 12.5% bleach at anywhere close to the $3/gallon price you indicated earlier in your post. any thoughts?
-Mickey
Hi Mickey,
Did you check the best bleach price thread for 2016? Seems there are some good deals to be found at Walmart and other more local venues. Regarding the cistern approach vs SWG, I think the main advantage is that so far, other than metering in daily bleach, I have no need to fuss with anything else. pH is rock solid at 7.7, TA holds steady at 70. CYA, CH, borates are checked weekly but so far so good. Our pool is settling into a pattern of 60-70 oz per day of 12.5% (a bit less than 2 ppm/day). That should mean that another refill won't be due before mid August. That refill will be partial and should carry us for the rest of the season. On the other hand, a SWG means no schlepping of bleach at all, but requires vigilance about pH and adding MA with some regularity.
I'm guessing you'd be happy either way. It all depends on what works for you. Personally, I kinda like only having to be vigilant about one parameter (FC) rather than 2 (FC and pH). And I don't mind 2 trips to OSJL per season for that peace of mind. Plus, I am very comfortable with peristaltic pumps. I used and maintained many such pumps during my graduate school days. OTOH, with the SWG, I had many unknowns: how would I know it was working? How often would I need to clean the cell? How sensitive would it be to flow and salinity? In the end, these unknowns are probably more in my head than a real concern. Most folks here love their SWG and wouldn't ever use another method to sanitize their pool.
FWIW, last i checked a couple of days ago, the cistern temp had risen to 61°F. If your spot is completely shaded, you would probably be doing the same if not better. I'm curious to see where I'll be in a month from now. That would be the midpoint of the season (for us) and a good gauge of how efficient my strategy really is.
good luck with your new pool!
Jay
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Link to bleach price thread: http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/111189-2016-bleach-prices
regarding that transfer pump, what kind of hose are you using? Garden hose? I have a transfer pump that I want to use in this way to empty bottles into my storage container...but I'm not sure a garden hose will fit in a gallon jug very well, nor if it'll hold up to chlorine. I was thinking of getting some clear pvc hose, but finding a way to adapt garden hose thread down to a 1/2" or so ID tube is proving more difficult than I thought after looking at all the box stores for parts.
Any update on the chlorine storage temps? I am planning to do this soon and wanted to see your results/thoughts before I dig a hole.
I used a 1/2" pvc garden hose. I rinse it after each use. I used fittings made for the transfer pump that adapt to 1/2" hose (kinda pricy but they have wing-nuts and don't leak). Good luck!
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A couple of days ago, it was at 66°F. We've had temps in the 90's, so it is keeping about a 25-30°F temperature differential. Not perfect, but sufficient for keeping bleach reasonably stable.
Thanks for the update. I have my stenner pump but I need to purchase hose and the injection valve. I will probably store a 5 gallon bucket in the crawl space for this season and then dig a hole for the 55 gallon drum for next season. The drum would fit under the house but I am afraid of fumes getting released under the house. If the drum stays cool I guess I should not have an issue with fumes? We shall see, but for now I plan to follow you.
Just an update: I had to refill (alarm worked as expected, letting me know that I only had 5 inches/10 days of chlorine left in the cistern) in the last week of July. That turns out to be about 11 weeks out of the first batch. I partially refilled to allow another 10 weeks or so. Temperature of the contents as of August 28 was 68°F despite ambient temps in the mid to high 90s for the past 4-5 weeks. Overall, I'm very pleased.
That is awesome. Thanks for the update. Looking forward to getting mine all set up next spring.
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The only issue is that I thought I could get away with regular plywood on the cover if I painted it. Alas, the cover is delaminating pretty badly. I will replace with pressure-treated ply for next season.
If you want to paint it buy some sanded pine, smooth finish on both sides. It's about $30 a sheet here. Put a few coats of kilz and then paint. I have had much better luck with this wood than pressure treated. My pressure treated plywood separated in one winter where the pine has lasted 4 years and looks as good as new.
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I will try that. I painted the cover with a couple coats of Rust-Oleum that was rated for wood. As an aside, I painted a plywood shelf near the equipment pad with several coats of plastiDip and that is faring much better. No delamination at all.
Nice,
I was looking inside of my 5gal storage tank yesterday and noticed a fair amount of particles floating around what I assume is salt I have never let it get completely empty my plan is to let it run down to empty or near it and flush the tank you may have to consider doing the same at some point.
I was looking inside of my 5gal storage tank yesterday and noticed a fair amount of particles floating around what I assume is salt I have never let it get completely empty my plan is to let it run down to empty or near it and flush the tank you may have to consider doing the same at some point.
Did your clorine percentage seem to stay the same all season?
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I've been wondering about this after I saw how salt built up around the injection point of another poster's Stenner injection port. I was planning on rinsing the cistern and filling with some water for the winter. Hopefully that will take care of the problem. Thanks for the suggestion.
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I didn't measure it, so it is hard to say. That said, I didn't have to change the dosing to compensate for any degradation over the 11 week life of my first batch. Based on this observation, I assume that the concentration stayed stable. Figuring that the temp was very low at the beginning of the season and never got above 70°F, I figure that the percentage should have stayed pretty close to 12%.