My SLAM w/ Duda Bags & Fiber Clear

[kellyfair]

I wouldn’t think increased pressure because of the bag would indicate that you should backwash.

Curious as to why you are using the bags - your water looks great!

 

[Texas Splash]

So am I doing the wrong thing by waiting until its 10psi over 15psi????

In your case (Mendy48), 25% over 15 would be 18.75. If you wait until 25 psi (more like 60%) you are impeding efficient water flow. Remember that here at TFP, those experts and scientists in various fields put this theory to the test in various pool configurations (type of pool, different filters, etc) which ultimately resulted in the 25% recommendation. Just like TFP recommendations about chemistry based on pool type and chlorination, our recommendations won't always look like the pool store or manufacture "standard".

The psi rule would be in effect for the filter restriction only. Adding devices after the filter skews your reading.

 

[RobertScalchi]

Has the sand been changed or deep cleaned as of yet? Any improvements on water clarity in the last 48 hrs?

 

[funandsun]

Have you had your filter open recently, Fun?

Yes kellyfair, I did open to deep clean last year and it was so nasty (2 years of Floc to filter [who knew you should go to waste? ] and clarifier to filter [who knew] ) all those memories came rushing back to me, so I dumped it, inspected laterals and replaced the sand. And the pool did go clear.

I replaced sand on 6/12/2017 and my notes say Pool went "clear" & passing OCLT on 6/22/2017, so 10 days. This was after starting pump 24/7 on 5/30/2017. So what happened (you know I have the pics lol), my clearing hit a wall, I knew my SLAM was right but much like madyogi, I could not get to the next level on color or clarity. Once I replaced the sand, it still took 10 days for the clearing to succeed.

Just seems like a very very long time.

Now this year

Can see my pics of cloudy blue on 5/9/2018 and now we are 5/20/2018 and the water is still not clear. It is clear"ing" and I am satisfied with my SLAM results, but this filtration system of mine is highly suspect and I can't help but wonder 2 things.. I have either still not "learned" how properly run it or it will never live up to my apparently high expectations of 4-5 days to clear 13,000 gallons of dead algae and (debris) out of the water.

I mentioned we replaced a single cartridge system, I have no idea what brand or model it was. While our water would never have passed OCLT, the water did clear and it cleared within 5-6 days as best as I recall. I have no notes to back that claim up, (I do remember that I never felt that it was taking too long) what I do know is the filter was never replaced (only cleaned and we did not have a backup) in the 3 seasons that it was used while I was here and my wife says/recalls she replaced it once in her years of ownership. So the Filter itself was 3-5 years old when we replaced that and converted to a sand filter.

My frustration is quite simply that, the filter does not know if the algae is dead or alive, it should be filtering the water. With the pump running 24/7, I would expect it to be able to do this in less than 20 days.

I would just like to make sure that I am not getting too far ahead of myself because it is 100% possible that I do not know how to properly run/manage a sand filter.

Can't be that hard right? Backwash at 20-25%, my clean psi is 8, backwash at 10, water is never very dirty, if I let it go to 13-14, then I will "typically" get a decent but I would not say Great dirty backwash. In both cases no appreciable decline in flow out of returns, maybe I should let the flow be more of a guide for me?

So that's why I asked, am I doing this right.

Today starts day 21 with the filter running 24/7, it's a 13k gallon pool with a S180T w/150lbs of sand. I am either greatly undersized, mis-using the system or it's rubbish for my situation and I need to replace/upgrade it to something that is going to not take 1/5 of the swim season to clear.

A lot of venting to be sure, but who else would live with these results? 20+ days to clear 13,000 gallons of water? Is that really normal? Maybe it is and I need to adjust my expectations.

Feedback welcome.

 

[splashpad]

Feedback welcome.

okay

Yes kellyfair, I did open to deep clean last year and it was so nasty (2 years of Floc to filter [who knew you should go to waste? ] and clarifier to filter [who knew] ) all those memories came rushing back to me, so I dumped it, inspected laterals and replaced the sand. And the pool did go clear.

Floc = bad, clarifier = unless you heavy-handedly overdosed wouldn't have hurt it.

Can see my pics of cloudy blue on 5/9/2018 and now we are 5/20/2018 and the water is still not clear. It is clear"ing" and I am satisfied with my SLAM results, but this filtration system of mine is highly suspect and I can't help but wonder 2 things.. I have either still not "learned" how properly run it or it will never live up to my apparently high expectations of 4-5 days to clear 13,000 gallons of dead algae and (debris) out of the water.
So that's why I asked, am I doing this right.

In short, yes you are doing it right, BUT your sand filter is getting air introduced (the air leak somewhere on the water inlet side of your plumbing), THAT is making it almost as if you don't have a filter, the air building up in the sand filter could "falsely" raise your PSI reading (not because it's dirty, but there IS pressure, so still relieve it)

I have an off-script suggestion: Since you have those duda bags now, you could run on recirculate setting (bypass the sand for the time being), drill a PIN HOLE in the top side of the elbow (figure out which way to point them so they are at a downward angle away from the skimmer, mark that somehow (still working on that, thinking a sharp object to "scratch the elbow"), that will let your air leak out, but start catching the "cloud" in the water. This would be ONLY until you can find & repair your air leak (which is very important, you don't want to run your pump on low water and be constantly introducing air into the system)

 

[Brittk27]

Hi, first time poster, but have been following this forum since last year. I have found a lot of helpful information here and thought I would share my recent experience.

We had had the same issue of air bubbles coming through one of our return jets and in the top of our pump basket. After inspecting the lid gasket, it was warped and needed to be replaced, so we did. It seems to help somewhat, but we still had air bubbles in both return jet and basket.

After doing some research through this site, I decided to check the suction side lines by running a steady stream of water
Over the lines to see if that solved the problem....it did immediately. Turns out we had a small leak around the shut off valve and pipe connection. We fixed it temporarily using epoxy, mesh pipe tape, and electrical tape. Again, this is a temporary fix, We will replace the lines and valves but We are currently slamming the pool and I didn’t want to risk losing any progress that has been made so far.....plumping jobs never goes smoothly for us.

I hope this may may help you find the source of your problem. Good luck!

 

[splashpad]

Hi, first time poster, but have been following this forum since last year. I have found a lot of helpful information here and thought I would share my recent experience.

We had had the same issue of air bubbles coming through one of our return jets and in the top of our pump basket. After inspecting the lid gasket, it was warped and needed to be replaced, so we did. It seems to help somewhat, but we still had air bubbles in both return jet and basket.

After doing some research through this site, I decided to check the suction side lines by running a steady stream of water
Over the lines to see if that solved the problem....it did immediately. Turns out we had a small leak around the shut off valve and pipe connection. We fixed it temporarily using epoxy, mesh pipe tape, and electrical tape. Again, this is a temporary fix, We will replace the lines and valves but We are currently slamming the pool and I didn’t want to risk losing any progress that has been made so far.....plumping jobs never goes smoothly for us.

I hope this may may help you find the source of your problem. Good luck!

This is very helpful! Thank you!

 

[funandsun]

Re: My SLAM w/ Duda Bags & Fiber Clear

Thanks splashpad,

When you mentioned the air yesterday and after watching that video, I recalled that when we opened this year the "pool dude" mentioned o-ring.

So, I just sent him some of those pics from yesterday and asked him to remember where he was talking about. I do not believe that we disconnected the union from skimmer to the pump for winter but I can't remember where in the process of reconnecting everything that it came up. So lets hope he remembers. Because I do not remember 'what' we disconnected for winter at all.

Am I right that "everything" before the sand filter is suction side? So any union before or after the pump BUT BEFORE the Filter would be suspect?

I LOVE excel so =IF(AND("Union before pump", "Union after pump", "Union before sand filter"),"SUSPECT","NOT SUSPECT")

For those of you that do not Love excel, all 3 locations must be true for it to be suspect, if a union is located where any of those 3 are not true then it is not suspect.

===================

As far as the pin hole, I have drill bits and I will use them! lol

Question would be, how big would that need to be and should I slow the speed of the pump down? I would think the speed of water out of return would be pretty high and the bubbles would end up in the bag resulting in it floating.

I will wait on that until I hear back from "the dude" and see if I can get this air leak sorted, that would be best overall.

No, the pump is not running dry so that's good, but clearly want to get this air leak sorted.

2 things needed to clear a green pool... SLAM and Filtration.

I need to get my filtration working as good as my SLAM's do lol

I will report back what/when I hear from "dude".


===========

Just heard back from "dude"... verbatim "I was talking about the rubber washer to the sight glass. Put lube on lid o ring so you can tighten it all the way. The unions at the front of the pump and valves may need to be tightened."

I replaced my sightglass when I went to get my chems and I replaced the pressure gauge as well. Both were genuine parts.

Ok.. pics coming, headed downstairs to take a snap shot of the equipment/plumbing.

- - - Updated - - -

Hi, first time poster, but have been following this forum since last year. I have found a lot of helpful information here and thought I would share my recent experience.

We had had the same issue of air bubbles coming through one of our return jets and in the top of our pump basket. After inspecting the lid gasket, it was warped and needed to be replaced, so we did. It seems to help somewhat, but we still had air bubbles in both return jet and basket.

After doing some research through this site, I decided to check the suction side lines by running a steady stream of water
Over the lines to see if that solved the problem....it did immediately. Turns out we had a small leak around the shut off valve and pipe connection. We fixed it temporarily using epoxy, mesh pipe tape, and electrical tape. Again, this is a temporary fix, We will replace the lines and valves but We are currently slamming the pool and I didn’t want to risk losing any progress that has been made so far.....plumping jobs never goes smoothly for us.

I hope this may may help you find the source of your problem. Good luck!

Thank you VERY MUCH for taking the time to share your experience Brittk27!!

I sincerely appreciate that.

I will add that suggestion to my "to do list" which is happening right now!

Air leak... your time is limited! Enjoy it while you can! lol

Cheers,

 

[splashpad]

Re: My SLAM w/ Duda Bags & Fiber Clear

Thanks splashpad,

You're welcome, this is fun! lol

Am I right that "everything" before the sand filter is suction side? So any union before or after the pump BUT BEFORE the Filter would be suspect?

Anything BEFORE THE PUMP (anything before that sight glass), after the pump is no longer suction =)

I LOVE excel so =IF(AND("Union before pump", "Union after pump", "Union before sand filter"),"SUSPECT","NOT SUSPECT")
For those of you that do not Love excel, all 3 locations must be true for it to be suspect, if a union is located where any of those 3 are not true then it is not suspect.

OH BOY!! You made me open EXCEL! Now we're talking!

SO... it would actually be:
Where is Union in relation to PUMP?
=IF(Union="BEFORE","TRUE","Yes Suction Side",IF(Union="AFTER","FALSE","Not Suction Side")

As far as the pin hole, I have drill bits and I will use them! lol
Question would be, how big would that need to be and should I slow the speed of the pump down? I would think the speed of water out of return would be pretty high and the bubbles would end up in the bag resulting in it floating.

The SMALLEST bit you have, you only want the air to escape, not all the crud you are trying to capture. Yes there is high pressure, but this will allow the air to escape (air wants to go UP), if you could slow your pump down, that would make it work better!

 

[funandsun]

Re: My SLAM w/ Duda Bags & Fiber Clear

ok, added magic lube to skimmer basket lid. No improvement

Tried the trickle of water over what I suspect to be 4 unions that could be the culprit. I did not see any change but I may not have done it correctly. I can screw up changing a light bulb, so take my results with a grain of salt when it comes to anything plumbing.

here is the picture of the plumbing


AND to a prior comment from Splashpad... YES, I can hear air or disturbance coming from inside the sand filter.

The other day I mentioned to my good friend (who does not have a pool), when PSI was up at 14, it sounded like Sand hitting a window during high winds on the beach. So, that level of disturbance inside.

- - - Updated - - -

I circled the Unions that meet the Suspect Criteria.

 

[splashpad]

Re: My SLAM w/ Duda Bags & Fiber Clear

AND to a prior comment from Splashpad... YES, I can hear air or disturbance coming from inside the sand filter.

The other day I mentioned to my good friend (who does not have a pool), when PSI was up at 14, it sounded like Sand hitting a window during high winds on the beach. So, that level of disturbance inside.

YIKES that is NOT good

- - - Updated - - -

- - - Updated - - -
I circled the Unions that meet the Suspect Criteria.
View attachment 77936

The one on TOP to the sand filter is NOT suction =) it's after the pump

 

[funandsun]

Re: My SLAM w/ Duda Bags & Fiber Clear

You're welcome, this is fun! lol

OH BOY!! You made me open EXCEL! Now we're talking!

SO... it would actually be:
Where is Union in relation to PUMP?
=IF(Union="BEFORE","TRUE","Yes Suction Side",IF(Union="AFTER","FALSE","Not Suction Side")

Yes, I had a different set of cells for reference ;o)))))

The SMALLEST bit you have, you only want the air to escape, not all the crud you are trying to capture. Yes there is high pressure, but this will allow the air to escape (air wants to go UP), if you could slow your pump down, that would make it work better!

ok.. and here is a pic of my Stainless Steel clamps. Ugh, I mentioned early on I NEVER get these right. The package says the band is stainless steel... omits the working part of course... and that is what rusted.

I moved to zip ties and they worked great. Clear non colored zip ties. Yes, some of us have multi-colored zip ties. I know, I know... wife says the same thing! lolol



- - - Updated - - -

YIKES that is NOT good

- - - Updated - - -



The one on TOP to the sand filter is NOT suction =) it's after the pump

Ok, going to grab my HUGE RED plumbers pipe wrench.

Let's see what we find out.

Dear Lord, Please don't let me screw this up. Amen.

 

[splashpad]

Re: My SLAM w/ Duda Bags & Fiber Clear

Yes, I had a different set of cells for reference ;o)))))

And I messed mine up too, rofl
If Union="AFTER", "TRUE", "Not suction side"

ok.. and here is a pic of my Stainless Steel clamps. Ugh, I mentioned early on I NEVER get these right. The package says the band is stainless steel... omits the working part of course... and that is what rusted.

Oh bum! That would explain why the plastic key ones are better, it "protects" the metal screw/bolt from the chlorine

I moved to zip ties and they worked great. Clear non colored zip ties. Yes, some of us have multi-colored zip ties. I know, I know... wife says the same thing! lolol

My DH is the king of zip-tie (mis)use. ROFL. He prefers the black, I prefer the white (yup dye issues! lol)

Ok, going to grab my HUGE RED plumbers pipe wrench.
Let's see what we find out.
Dear Lord, Please don't let me screw this up. Amen.

:cop::::study: (heehee)

 

[funandsun]

Re: My SLAM w/ Duda Bags & Fiber Clear

Ok

So, I checked all 3. Before I start, I would like to take this moment to reiterate that I HATE MY PLUMBING SET UP ON MY PAD.. ok. I feel sooo much better.

All 3 could be turned in either direction with no improvement or degradation.

That said, I thought.. I will shut off the pump and close the valves and inspect the o rings myself. Went to turn the handle aaaaand the handle cracked. Of course it did. Why wouldn't it. This is a perfect time for that .02 cent part to blow the whole op.



Ok. No problem.. but I did want to point out 1 observation.

When I turned off the pump, the water did not leave the basket. All year, whenever I would turn off the pump to backwash, the water would drain out back toward the pool or where ever it went. I never lost prime, sure it may take a few seconds for water to fully return into that whirlwind of air in the pump basket window but this time, the water just stayed there.

But, when I turned the pump back on, the whirlwind of air returned.

So, now I am going to shop for this valve handle and while I wait for it, I will dream of a day when I have better plumbing with proper heavy duty valves and better access vs whatever someone wants to call this set up I have now.

Oh, and it's Gray, not Red.. my apologies :calm: :batman:

 

[splashpad]

Re: My SLAM w/ Duda Bags & Fiber Clear

oh... no...

So.... is your pump "dead in the water"?? (without water supply?)


SO SORRY!

 

[funandsun]

Re: My SLAM w/ Duda Bags & Fiber Clear

oh... no...

So.... is your pump "dead in the water"?? (without water supply?)


SO SORRY!

Oh no... I never got the water turned off, so all good there.

I could use channel locks to turn the valve if I had to, this hayward plastic knob just fits over this square knot that points up.

All good.

Reality, when we replaced the pump last year, the valves are garbage, they do not fully stop the water even when they are closed.

That whole section needs to be corrected with much heavier duty grade in my opinion.

I am funny that way, when I turn a handle to off, I expect things to STOP. lol i know i know, me and my demands of things. lol

 

[funandsun]

Re: My SLAM w/ Duda Bags & Fiber Clear

So, where I am now.

Until I get a new handle to turn water off (to its best ability), I can report that the everything is basically as it was before. Pump running, filter noise did quiet down.

A full inspection of the Unions is in order and that operation will be carried out in the coming days.

Till then, I will just let things do what they do and start my shopping list of all the things I want that I may or may not get approval on.

 

[splashpad]

Re: My SLAM w/ Duda Bags & Fiber Clear

So, I checked all 3. Before I start, I would like to take this moment to reiterate that I HATE MY PLUMBING SET UP ON MY PAD.. ok. I feel sooo much better.

I can feel your pain just from the pics!

All 3 could be turned in either direction with no improvement or degradation.

Just clarifying what you mean by this? (If referring to the NUT, if the gasket or o-rings are out of place, it wouldn't improve with adjustment)
The air cavitation is already pretty bad, not sure it could be made (noticeably) worse :/

That said, I thought.. I will shut off the pump and close the valves and inspect the o rings myself. Went to turn the handle aaaaand the handle cracked. Of course it did. Why wouldn't it. This is a perfect time for that .02 cent part to blow the whole op.

Oh boy....

Ok. No problem.. but I did want to point out 1 observation.

When I turned off the pump, the water did not leave the basket. All year, whenever I would turn off the pump to backwash, the water would drain out back toward the pool or where ever it went. I never lost prime, sure it may take a few seconds for water to fully return into that whirlwind of air in the pump basket window but this time, the water just stayed there.

But, when I turned the pump back on, the whirlwind of air returned.

What was the sand filter switched to?

So, now I am going to shop for this valve handle and while I wait for it, I will dream of a day when I have better plumbing with proper heavy duty valves and better access vs whatever someone wants to call this set up I have now.
Oh, and it's Gray, not Red.. my apologies :calm: :batman:

LOL, Happy (Quick) Shopping I hope!

- - - Updated - - -

Until I get a new handle to turn water off (to its best ability), I can report that the everything is basically as it was before. Pump running, filter noise did quiet down.

Is there a way to "bleed" that air from the view skimmer? (with the pump off)

I know "cheapo" intex pumps have an air bleed cap (since AGP owners like (have) to mess with our equipment WAY more then IG owners)

 

[funandsun]

Re: My SLAM w/ Duda Bags & Fiber Clear

Well, that is one thing I could do right?

Put sand filter on recirculate and reinstall the duda bags and let them carry the load.

=====
When the water did not leave the pump basket, the filter was on Filter. Every other time it was also on filter and the water would leave and push my skimmer basket up and send whatever debris was in it floating. Not terrible and did not seem unusual. Just noticed this time that the water stayed in the pump basket.

 

[splashpad]

Re: My SLAM w/ Duda Bags & Fiber Clear

Well, that is one thing I could do right?

Put sand filter on recirculate and reinstall the duda bags and let them carry the load.

Yes you know that works!

When the water did not leave the pump basket, the filter was on Filter. Every other time it was also on filter and the water would leave and push my skimmer basket up and send whatever debris was in it floating. Not terrible and did not seem unusual. Just noticed this time that the water stayed in the pump basket.

I'm thinking there has been a slow air leak all along, that's a GOOD sign! (the pump view pot shouldn't empty until you release the "prime/pressure", at least ours doesn't)