Moving.. Going to do a DIY Build.

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Dirk said:
Rain? Oh yah, I remember rain. Drops of water falling from the sky, right? 😏
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Looking at you pool build, I'm wondering how things are working out with the 250Kbtu heater and solar pre-heat. How much was the solar install, BTW?

I considered a smaller heater but just went with the 400kBTU instead. I'm also considering adding solar pre-heat in the future.
 
ShallowWater said:
Looking at you pool build, I'm wondering how things are working out with the 250Kbtu heater and solar pre-heat. How much was the solar install, BTW?

I considered a smaller heater but just went with the 400kBTU instead. I'm also considering adding solar pre-heat in the future.
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I didn't build my pool, I inherited it from the previous homeowners. I've never once turned on my gas heater, so can't offer any thoughts about it. I installed my solar heater myself, but that is my primary heater, not used as a pre-heater. I'm not even sure if it could be used as one, as I've never tried to run both heaters at the same time. Can an EasyTouch do that? (Not sure.) You might confirm how that works on an IntelliCenter before you make your plan.

The installed estimate was about $10K (3 or 4 years ago). The same company sold me a kit (panels, valves, pipe, etc, all the parts they would have used, down to the glue and the rags to wipe up the glue) for about $3K. Quite a comprehensive package, and significant savings. Installation was just labor, nothing particularly difficult (though I'm very "handy"). I had a pool guy do the connections at the pad, but I could have managed that, too. They reconfigured by pad for several reasons, including a new pump, so the solar plumbing was just part of that.

If you're thinking of installing later, do the pad plumbing now. Or at least leave room for it. I wish my plumbing had a gas heater bypass, because they cause a lot of flow resistance. I didn't have room. For some reason I can't bring myself to just disconnect the heater. I've probably mucked it up by never using it, but who knows, maybe I'll win the lottery and will be able to afford to run it someday!

I installed a FlowVis flow meter to help me optimize the flow through the panels. I suppose it could be used to do the same for a gas heater. I've also used it to adjust my cleaner and to keep an eye on my filter condition. I've gotten good return on that investment, and it's paid for itself by now (optimizing heater efficiency).

The hardest part of the install was running the pipes from the pad to where they go up the wall to the roof. I had to trench through landscaping, and go under a sidewalk. Unless your solar pipes can go vertical directly from your pad, you might consider running any underground pipes now.
 
The roof I'd install the solar on is immediately above the pad and faces due south. I'm almost considering it may be a needed thing to overnight cool the pool if it gets too hot. I believe all that is needed is two Valve Actuators and another relay which I have room for as I don't have any fancy water features to control.
 
ShallowWater said:
I believe all that is needed is two Valve Actuators and another relay
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My solar only requires one actuator, as there is only one valve that manages the flow through the solar panels. On an EasyTouch, that actuator has a dedicated connection on the motherboard, no relay needed for solar control. Same goes for the gas heater. There is no actuator or relay needed for the gas heater. And neither uses up any of the feature programming slots in the software, which offers control of the two heaters separate from running lights or water features. I'm gunna go out on a limb and say the IntelliCenter offers at least all that.

Now if you're going to try something that the IntelliCenter doesn't do "out of the box," like trying to run both heaters at the same time, or running an actuator on a gas heater bypass, then that might use up a feature relay spot or two. It just depends on what you want to be able to do.
 
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Typically, gas heaters are plumbed so that water flows through them all the time, any time the filter pump is running. You don't shut off flow through them. You just turn on the gas when you want it to heat the water. So unless you have a need for a bypass, there are no valves involved.

Solar heaters have an actuated valve to control flow through them so that you don't have to pump water through them when you don't want to heat the water. And so you're not pumping water through them when they can't actually heat the water. Their restriction would be pretty hard on the electric bill otherwise. And you don't want water running through them when a cloud passes overhead. Gas heaters don't have those considerations.

There is some restriction through a gas heater, too, but I think they are not normally bypassed because I think they're not supposed to be left to dry out. Not sure on that, but others here will know.

Study these animations to get an idea of how solar is normally plumbed. This site taught me most of what I needed to know for my install. You'll see some red-handled PVC ball valves in the drawings. Those are optional. Study what the solar valve is doing. There is both a tee and a valve on the return ("exit") side, but it only needs to be a check valve. It does its thing without any intervention necessary, manual or automated.

www.h2otsun.com

Plumbing a Solar Pool Heater | Hot Sun Solar Pool Heating

The basic concepts you must know to correctly plumb a solar pool heater.
www.h2otsun.com www.h2otsun.com

Wander around that site, there are a few pages that lay out the principles of the plumbing and the panel installation.
 
Dirk said:
Typically, gas heaters are plumbed so that water flows through them all the time, any time the filter pump is running. You don't shut off flow through them. You just turn on the gas when you want it to heat the water. So unless you have a need for a bypass, there are no valves involved.

Solar heaters have an actuated valve to control flow through them so that you don't have to pump water through them when you don't want to heat the water. And so you're not pumping water through them when they can't actually heat the water. Their restriction would be pretty hard on the electric bill otherwise. And you don't want water running through them when a cloud passes overhead. Gas heaters don't have those considerations.

There is some restriction through a gas heater, too, but I think they are not normally bypassed because I think they're not supposed to be left to dry out. Not sure on that, but others here will know.

Study these animations to get an idea of how solar is normally plumbed. This site taught me most of what I needed to know for my install. You'll see some red-handled PVC ball valves in the drawings. Those are optional. Study what the solar valve is doing. There is both a tee and a valve on the return ("exit") side, but it only needs to be a check valve. It does its thing without any intervention necessary, manual or automated.

www.h2otsun.com

Plumbing a Solar Pool Heater | Hot Sun Solar Pool Heating

The basic concepts you must know to correctly plumb a solar pool heater.
www.h2otsun.com www.h2otsun.com

Wander around that site, there are a few pages that lay out the principles of the plumbing and the panel installation.
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So what do you use for a "Sun Comes Up" Sensor? A timer or can it be set to change with the time of sunrise or sunset each day? With my home automation system I can assign triggers based on x minutes before/after sunrise/sunset. If the need arises to cool my pool at night I would like to even set a trigger based on pool water temperature and time of day.
 

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ShallowWater said:
So what do you use for a "Sun Comes Up" Sensor? A timer or can it be set to change with the time of sunrise or sunset each day? With my home automation system I can assign triggers based on x minutes before/after sunrise/sunset. If the need arises to cool my pool at night I would like to even set a trigger based on pool water temperature and time of day.
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My pool's automation controller (EasyTouch) compares the pool's water temperature to the available heat on the panels. Two dedicated temperature sensors are used for that. And the EasyTouch can schedule when the solar heater runs. So: when the pump is on, and the time of day is within the set solar heating schedule and the heat on the panels is such that they could raise the pool's water temperature, the EasyTouch operates the solar valve's actuator. Water flows through the panels and clears out all the air that they might contain, and heating commences.

That continues until either the panels aren't hot enough to affect the pool temp, or the schedule runs out, or the pool reaches the desired temperature (which is set in the EasyTouch interface). That includes even when a cloud passes overhead and temporarily renders the panels too cool. It sounds simple, but is actually fairly complicated, and I expect it would be difficult to recreate with any sort of simple circuitry or scheduling alone. Not saying it couldn't be done, but it's not just a matter of opening a valve at 8:00AM and closing it at 5:00PM.

You could do it that way, of course, and it could heat your pool, and during the right weather it might work just fine . But on "threshold days," like when the sun is hiding behind scattered clouds, or too low in spring or fall, or blaring away all day, you'd have to figure out how to account for all those varying conditions (sometimes minute to minute). No need in your case, of course, because you have an IntelliCenter and solar heating control is all built in. You'd just connect your solar valve actuator to the IntelliCenter mother board, along with the two temperature sensors (one or more of which is probably included with your IntelliCenter), set the thermostat setting, and setup your pump schedule with solar heat selected as the heat source. That's it. The IntelliCenter will do the rest.

When the panels are first filled in the morning, they remain full of water while the pump is on. The solar valve may open and close once a day, or several times a day, even every few minutes on a cloudy day, but the panels stay full of water the entire time. Even after the solar heating schedule expires or the pool reaches temp. When the filter pump stops running for the day, the panels then drain and they fill with air. This is mainly to protect the panels from freezing overnight. But also to keep a large slug of night-cooled water from emptying into the pool when the solar valve first comes on the next day.

As far as using the panels to cool the pool at night, that's beyond my experience, never having the need, and so I don't even know if an EasyTouch or an IntelliCenter can be programmed to do that. You could certainly operate the solar valve manually, so that is possible. I just don't know if the IntelliCenter can automate that based on nighttime and pool water temperatures. It may have been discussed on the forum, so you might do a TFP search for that.
 
For solar we got a quote through the builder at a good price I thought. Ours does not use solar and gas heating at the same time in the pool. I also don’t think so in the spa either. Also builder told us afterwards that we needed to get the solar pipes painted and that if we’d had the paint ready the day of install the installers would’ve painted the pipes, so it’s something to ask about when getting quotes. I don’t know if that’s true but we got it painted later.
 
Cena_sea said:
Also builder told us afterwards that we needed to get the solar pipes painted and that if we’d had the paint ready the day of install the installers would’ve painted the pipes, so it’s something to ask about when getting quotes.
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Painting PVC can be problematic in the best of conditions, add to that the harsh environment of a roof top, hot and cold and UV, and then the constant temperature swings, and painted PVC is eventually going to peel and look bad. There are three solutions that I know of:

(1) Stick with unpainted PVC and hope the UV-blasted PVC lasts at least as long as the panels. Some say the white tends to fade from your notice, and looks better than peeling PVC regardless. Or (2) paint the white PVC with a light color, for added UV protection, and it won't show as bad when it peels.

(3) Or do what I did. My solar installation kit came with UV-resistant black PVC pipes! They've faded a bit, but still look great, even as dark grey.

I did have to paint the fittings, as I couldn't find them in black, but I took special care in doing so. I sanded them thoroughly to remove the shine, then primed them, then applied several coats of paint. I expect they'll fail first, but so far so good after four years.

The pipes still match the panels:
solar panels.jpg

And the painted elbows and tee are holding up pretty well (though this pic is when they were still "young"):
vrv.jpg

I replaced all the "UV" zip ties I had used, as their "UVedness" is questionable. They fail. Outdoors, for all things that need binding, I now use stainless steel wire or stainless steel plumber's strapping. Can't get more UV-proof than that!
 
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ShallowWater said:
Still looking for input on rails
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I had galvanized and they were going strong 9 years later when we moved. Brass would fare even better.

I wouldn't use plastic because generally it doesn't do well long term in the elements.
 
What’s a good slope for pool decking? Is 1.25% too much? That equates to 1.5 “ in 10 feet. One area may need this unless I remove an existing step at my rear slider.

Bottom of existing step is 3” higher than the top of the bond beam at the pool which is 20 feet away at the closest point.


13244298-7681-480E-A548-A931ACCDF079.jpegC91E4C3D-7DE9-465D-AB98-6A5141D0EBB5.jpeg
 
Dirk said:
what about the galvanic corrosion properties involved? Should the insert be the same material as the rail? Or does brass cover that issue?
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Brass is frequently used as the buffer between 2 dissimilar metals because it's iron content is so low, it will not rust.
 

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