Metal problems and Sulphur water source😞

[Patti]

You have zero chlorine? Must have some, ideally 4-8 ppm based on your CYA level as noted here:

View attachment 362941
Your pH is too low, should be 7.6-7.8. To raise PH use borax or soda ash (aka sodium carbonate).
Your Total Alkalinity is WAY too high, should be 60-80. Refer to this thread on how to lower it. Lower Total Alkalinity - Trouble Free Pool

Refer to What Are My Ideal Pool Levels? - Trouble Free Pool

This is really strange…I responded to you and others, and my responses aren’t here. Magbe they’re somewhere else, But in case you haven’t seen them I’ll recap.
I know- the zero chlorine was throwing me too! (I just retested after shocking yesterday so I’ll post results below).
I had lowered the chlorine to put in the Ascorbic acid last week. I understand that with super hard water like mine, it is best to keep the pH on the lower side. On the HTH strips it’s shows the acceptable range for alkalinity is 80-120?? No??? Thanks for the links.
Maybe I should hold on for a couple of days and not do anything… because here are my test numbers tonight:
Free Chlorine 5
Total chlorine 4
Alkalinity 120
pH 7.2
Hardness 800+
CYA 30-50
I found the Ontario retailer of the Taylor reagents so I’ll order some tomorrow…. But (gulp) $50 for a 2 ounce bottle of some of them. Yikes.

 

[Patti]

Patti, for now, I would just get through this next month or so by using liquid chlorine to maintain a reasonable amount of chlorine (about 5 ppm). That will not remove algae, and may not even be your ideal sanitation level compared to your CYA, but without a good test kit to validate all of those numbers that's about all you can do for now. Just before closing, when the water temps fall below 60 degrees, you can consider doing an AA treatment for iron if you wish. Remember that even if you do an AA to remove iron from surfaces, the iron is still in the water. So ideally you'll want to exchange water. Winter might help you with that.

As for the Sulphur, that's a bit over my head so I will tag someone like @JoyfulNoise who might be able to give you some insight on that issue.

Thanks! I shocked it yesterday and here are my numbers tonight:
Free Chlorine 5
Total chlorine 4
Alkalinity 120
pH 7.2
Hardness 800+
CYA 30-50
So…I’m not going to do anything more right now except add the liquid chlorine to keep it around 5. There is still some foam, but less. It doesn’t sound like Sulphur is playing a role. Wish I knew the cause of the stains. With iron and/or copper stains, after you treat them is the liner usually discoloured (the white marks on it have disappeared so it’s become solid blue (a brand new- custom-sized liner) What about algae? Would algae do that?
thanks!

 

[Patti]

Thanks! I shocked it yesterday and here are my numbers tonight:
Free Chlorine 5
Total chlorine 4
Alkalinity 120
pH 7.2
Hardness 800+
CYA 30-50
So…I’m not going to do anything more right now except add the liquid chlorine to keep it around 5. There is still some foam, but less. It doesn’t sound like Sulphur is playing a role. Wish I knew the cause of the stains. With iron and/or copper stains, after you treat them is the liner usually discoloured (the white marks on it have disappeared so it’s become solid blue (a brand new- custom-sized liner) What about algae? Would algae do that?
thanks!

BTW…is it safe to swim in the pool with the algaecide foam? If my stains ARE black algae shouldn’t two heavy treatments have cleared them up? Thanks again for you help!

 

[Texas Splash]

You should be able to swim. Just keep teh FC at a strong 5 for now. The foam should go away in the next day or two. At this point so later in the year without good test reagents, I wouldn't worry about doing too much chemically. Try to just enjoy the time left in this season. If you get fresh reagents before closing, let us know and we'll walk you through a SLAM Process. The AA should not have effected the liner. Perhaps some other chemical was the cause? Your CH level is extremely high, so I'm assuming you have used Cal-Hypo products in the past? If allowed to settle on the liner, that could cause some issues.

 

[Pv2]

I just shocked it again. I have an automatic Chlorine puck thing (Lol) I keep it at 3 and never have any problems. Stuff just started going haywire when I started trying to get rid of the stains!

what do you mean you shocked it again? what product and how much. just keeping chlorine at 3 without knowing what the CYA is while using pucks will more than likely get you into trouble for sure. I would ignore the stains for now and get the chlorine up with liquid. I don't know what your stains are but I doubt it is black algae, I don't even think vinyl pools can get it.

Black Algae

This guide provides a step by step procedure for eliminating black algae in your concrete or gunite pool. Read full post here.

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Patti]

You should be able to swim. Just keep teh FC at a strong 5 for now. The foam should go away in the next day or two. At this point so later in the year without good test reagents, I wouldn't worry about doing too much chemically. Try to just enjoy the time left in this season. If you get fresh reagents before closing, let us know and we'll walk you through a SLAM Process. The AA should not have effected the liner. Perhaps some other chemical was the cause? Your CH level is extremely high, so I'm assuming you have used Cal-Hypo products in the past? If allowed to settle on the liner, that could cause some issues.

okay! Thank you for your help! No- I’ve never used Cal-Hypo. i haven’t been overly concerned with the hardness because I rarely, if ever, have any scale (or stain) rings.
To be honest, I had no idea about this whole ‘metals dropping out of solution’ thing.
I’ve had smaller pools than this one for years- ( ie. 18’roundx52”) and I have ALWAYS had beautiful crystal clear water- no algae, no stains, nothing.
The ONLY thing I did with them was floating chlorine pucks!!! I did the simple chlorine/pH drop test and they were both always perfect.
Last year was my first full summer with the pool (it was installed the previous fall).
No problems with stains.
Late in the season I bought a Floating Solar Ionizer (Do you know what I’m talking about?) I’ll attach pictures. This ionizer was supposed to eliminate/prevent formation of algae, and reduce chlorine demands. It has a copper rod in it. I thought this might be a great thing- reducing the need for both algaecide and chlorine.But because of my inexperience and lack of knowledge about metals in pool water & chemicals I’m afraid that might be the source of the staining
I posted pictures of it previously asking if anyone thought it might be the cause…but no one replied)
So, I closely examined the stains to determine what colours were present to help determine what they were. They looked like iron to me- not copper- so I treated with the easiest method first (AA).
It did lift and lighten the stains, but even after 2 applications, & scrubbing with a brush & Mr.Clean eraser, there were outer rings still apparent, and there were tiny circles of black scattered about (looked like the paper circles you get out of a 3 hole punch).
So…I thought blackspot algae, and treated it twice with algaecide.
Questioned the possibility of sulphur.
So I’m down to two remaining possible causes (neither of which I like)
1) The solar ionizer?(which I took out weeks ago)
2) There’s only one other possibility- and I don’t know if it’s even plausible…but I’d like to hear thoughts….
I live on a floodplain. There’s a very high water table, and the water doesn’t ‘always’ overflow the river banks ( often it does) or reach my pool (but sometimes it does.)
2017 there was a massive flood and my property was basically the ‘funnel’ that it went through- my property sustained the most damage of the entire flood. (river rose 23’ and came through my entire 4 acres at 5’ deep- over top of my 52” pool - & tractor cab!)
I’m hoping that was THE once-in-a-hundred-year flood & i never seen anything like that again, but I wanted to try and make this pool as stable as possible (the other flood actually went UNDER the foundation of my house, moved the soil, cracked the foundation, and the house is shifting). So, anyways…
This is how I did the foundation:
•the ground beneath is clay.
•We used a tripod laser level every step of the way.
•Dug out about 8” and packed with 6 inches of stone dust /or pea gravel - it’s called different things, but used a compactor and made it like cement.
• After a few weeks, put Landscape cloth down to stop weeds.
•then, I got THICK rubber conveyor belting, siliconed the joints in between the strips, and made sure everything was perfectly flat.
•put 2” rigid styrofoam sheets. (Long story but I had driven for hours to get these because the guy had assured me they were totally smooth & would be fine under the liner. They weren’t. They had bumps and air pockets, but it was October by then so I just took them. I filled the holes with an adhesive/epoxy/caulk kind of stuff and sanded them (stupid amount of work I know)
•put the Felt Gorilla pad down, then pool sides, cove moulding & liner.
•everything was completely dry when we put each layer down and installed the liner.
SO…now I am wondering if there is any possible way the problems could be coming from BELOW the liner. I can’t see how they would be…but I’m not experienced enough to know. Even if they WERE coming from there, I would assume they would be ORGANIC stains, so the AA and/or the algaecide SHOULD have dealt with them, correct? The stains are around the far end of the pool (opposite from the skimmer & return outlet which are both on the left corner closest to the deck ), then they are up the right side and around the right corner closest to the deck- all the areas which have the least amount of flow, so it would make sense that metals would be dropping out of solution in those places. Also- they are ONLY on the floor- nothing on the walls, & only twice have had a very faint greyish ring that wiped off easily with my hand.
Based on the stains, treatments I’ve done, etc…. What are your thoughts???
I am leaning towards these stains being copper related…but to me, they didn’t/dont look like copper stains- they didn’t have the same appearance or colours as that photo examples I saw.
Do they look like or sound like copper stains to you???
I REALLY appreciate you taking the time to read through all this Texas Splash!! (And anyone else as well!!) And I’m grateful for your input!!! This quite a learning curve- that I never expected! Any thoughts on how I should proceed with the stains (after I get things levelled out and I get guidance SLAMMING it. )
I wanted to work on building a solar water heater this summer but I’ve spent all my time trying to get this straightened out. I think I will go ahead and get those filters that can be attached yo the hose. The hoses can be hooked onto a small portable pump and the water in the pool recirculated through them, so any metals should be removed and maybe I can start from fresh. Thanks again for your help. Pictures below of the Ionizer - (don’t remember how it works exactly but I’ve included before & after pictures…)
Patti

 

[Patti]

what do you mean you shocked it again? what product and how much. just keeping chlorine at 3 without knowing what the CYA is while using pucks will more than likely get you into trouble for sure. I would ignore the stains for now and get the chlorine up with liquid. I don't know what your stains are but I doubt it is black algae, I don't even think vinyl pools can get it.

Black Algae

This guide provides a step by step procedure for eliminating black algae in your concrete or gunite pool. Read full post here.

www.troublefreepool.com

My CYA is between 30-50. It was the 2nd time I’d shocked it because my FC was showing zero ?!? I had done AA and algaecide treatments
and the water was cloudy. After the second shock the Chlorine & cya levels were okay according to the chart on here. Chlorine was 5. I have a chlorinator but have it down as low as it can go at the moment (wanted to adjust slowly) to keep cya in balance.
I used granular (powder) shock - put in according to manufacturer’s directions.(my pool is just over 11,000 gallons/43,000L)
I’ll read that info on black algae, thanks. I’ll let you know what I find out about vinyl. I’m going to maintain the chlorine at 5 with liquid. Except for my hardness level being off the chart, I have kept my pool perfectly balanced with very little effort- no need to use any chemicals except the chlorine. It only started messing up when these stains started to appear and I started trying to get rid of them. (And the stains may be related to a floating Solar Ionizer I had in the pool). It was supposed to inhibit algae and reduce chlorine use. I never added algaecide- never had a problem last year or this year- except for one spot about 8” in diameter in a low flow corner that appeared at the very end of last season. (*I DID use algaecide/shock etc when closing for the winter and upon reopening.) The spot was still there when I reopened , and there may have been one other small one. It was after trying to scrub them with brushes & Mr. Clean eraser that I started to wonder what was going on and learned alllllll about metals in suspension. I had no idea- I’d never had a problem with any other above ground pools I’ve had. Learning something new every day. Just wish whatever the stains were hadn’t removed the colour from my brand new, custom-cut$$$ liner.(I only poured Ascorbic acid down a tube on one of them, so that wasn’t the cause- wherever the stains were, the liner is a noticeable darker shade of blue, and any of the white pattern that was on the liner in the same area is gone. That’s what made me wonder if it could be algae… like it was ‘eating away’ at the liner. That and the fact that after a lot of the stain had lifted, there were small black circles scattered about (like paper from a hole punch). Just trying to figure this all out!! Thanks for your input. Patti

 

[Patti]

After doing more research, I have discovered some valuable information that I think may be helpful for many pool owners, and think perhaps TFP Admin should include it on the site. (I have included two links at the bottom.

This information TOTALLY EXPLAINS the BLACK STAINS THAT PEOPLE CAN’T SEEM TO GET RID OF DESPITE FOLLOWING THE ADVICE OF THE EXPERIENCED PEOPLE HERE ON TFP!
This information/explanation isn’t one I’ve seen on TFP- and it is EXACTLY what I think is happening in my situation.
here are some of the key things II’ve learned:
1) Black Algae can INDEED grow on vinyl liners, and not just concrete or plaster as indicated in the article posted on this site about Black Algae.
2) to keep it in check, the following levels are recommended: the best protection against algae growth is a constantly held free chlorine level in the range of 1-3 ppm, a total alkalinity between 80 to 120 ppm, a pH between 7.2 to 7.6, and a calcium hardness of 200 to 300 ppm.
**so, my hardness of 800+++ could be a big contributing factor

3) Special problems are presented by locations that have high water tables, which continually bring water loaded with micro-organisms to the back side of the liner. Using disinfectants at these sites may be ineffective, since they will be quickly washed away. A possible defense may be some type of barrier layer; either a plastic sheet, perhaps polyethylene between the pool shell and liner, or a barrier coating of some kind applied directly to the pool shell.

4) A type of gray/black colored stain can occur when dye-producing microorganisms colonize the back side of a vinyl liner. The microbial dye becomes visible on the pool side of the liner as it wicks through the liner’s material, creating an irregularly shaped blotch. The stains on the pool side can be temporarily diminished through superchlorination, but they’ll reappear, since the source of the stain originates from the back side of the liner. Installation of a polyethylene barrier between the vinyl liner and the walls and floor of the pool can provide a barrier to these types of organisms.

5)The third, (and very rare cause of staining), can be microbial activity under the interior surface of the pool. If in this example the pool has a PVC liner, it is possible for ground water contamination under the liner to encourage microbial activity. These microbes feed off nutrients in the ground water (like seepage from a septic system or other grey water) and they secrete dyes that will stain the liner from the underneath and can flow through to the inside surface of the pool.

Once this dye staining has occurred, the stain can be lightened sometimes with the addition of high levels of chlorine introduced into the pool, but usually the staining is permanent and cannot be removed.

SO… perhaps THIS is the root of the problem, and not metals at all!!

Hope ADMIN and members find this helpful! It could be saving people a LOT of time, money, headaches & frustration!!!
…..Although, having to replace my brand new liner, and adding a layer of protective barrier won’t exactly save me any time, money, headaches or frustration either! ( not short term at least! But hopefully over the long term!!!)
***information obtained from the following sources: (they also include how to deal with it)
1) Pool and Spa News (PSN)

https://www.poolspanews.com/facilities/maintenance/know-your-stains_

Carl Flieler, Canadian General Tower Ltd.

2) https://www.abgal.com.au/blog/my-po...ng-on-the-interior-surface-what-is-the-cause/

 

[Patti]

okay! Thank you for your help! No- I’ve never used Cal-Hypo. i haven’t been overly concerned with the hardness because I rarely, if ever, have any scale (or stain) rings.
To be honest, I had no idea about this whole ‘metals dropping out of solution’ thing.
I’ve had smaller pools than this one for years- ( ie. 18’roundx52”) and I have ALWAYS had beautiful crystal clear water- no algae, no stains, nothing.
The ONLY thing I did with them was floating chlorine pucks!!! I did the simple chlorine/pH drop test and they were both always perfect.
Last year was my first full summer with the pool (it was installed the previous fall).
No problems with stains.
Late in the season I bought a Floating Solar Ionizer (Do you know what I’m talking about?) I’ll attach pictures. This ionizer was supposed to eliminate/prevent formation of algae, and reduce chlorine demands. It has a copper rod in it. I thought this might be a great thing- reducing the need for both algaecide and chlorine.But because of my inexperience and lack of knowledge about metals in pool water & chemicals I’m afraid that might be the source of the staining
I posted pictures of it previously asking if anyone thought it might be the cause…but no one replied)
So, I closely examined the stains to determine what colours were present to help determine what they were. They looked like iron to me- not copper- so I treated with the easiest method first (AA).
It did lift and lighten the stains, but even after 2 applications, & scrubbing with a brush & Mr.Clean eraser, there were outer rings still apparent, and there were tiny circles of black scattered about (looked like the paper circles you get out of a 3 hole punch).
So…I thought blackspot algae, and treated it twice with algaecide.
Questioned the possibility of sulphur.
So I’m down to two remaining possible causes (neither of which I like)
1) The solar ionizer?(which I took out weeks ago)
2) There’s only one other possibility- and I don’t know if it’s even plausible…but I’d like to hear thoughts….
I live on a floodplain. There’s a very high water table, and the water doesn’t ‘always’ overflow the river banks ( often it does) or reach my pool (but sometimes it does.)
2017 there was a massive flood and my property was basically the ‘funnel’ that it went through- my property sustained the most damage of the entire flood. (river rose 23’ and came through my entire 4 acres at 5’ deep- over top of my 52” pool - & tractor cab!)
I’m hoping that was THE once-in-a-hundred-year flood & i never seen anything like that again, but I wanted to try and make this pool as stable as possible (the other flood actually went UNDER the foundation of my house, moved the soil, cracked the foundation, and the house is shifting). So, anyways…
This is how I did the foundation:
•the ground beneath is clay.
•We used a tripod laser level every step of the way.
•Dug out about 8” and packed with 6 inches of stone dust /or pea gravel - it’s called different things, but used a compactor and made it like cement.
• After a few weeks, put Landscape cloth down to stop weeds.
•then, I got THICK rubber conveyor belting, siliconed the joints in between the strips, and made sure everything was perfectly flat.
•put 2” rigid styrofoam sheets. (Long story but I had driven for hours to get these because the guy had assured me they were totally smooth & would be fine under the liner. They weren’t. They had bumps and air pockets, but it was October by then so I just took them. I filled the holes with an adhesive/epoxy/caulk kind of stuff and sanded them (stupid amount of work I know)
•put the Felt Gorilla pad down, then pool sides, cove moulding & liner.
•everything was completely dry when we put each layer down and installed the liner.
SO…now I am wondering if there is any possible way the problems could be coming from BELOW the liner. I can’t see how they would be…but I’m not experienced enough to know. Even if they WERE coming from there, I would assume they would be ORGANIC stains, so the AA and/or the algaecide SHOULD have dealt with them, correct? The stains are around the far end of the pool (opposite from the skimmer & return outlet which are both on the left corner closest to the deck ), then they are up the right side and around the right corner closest to the deck- all the areas which have the least amount of flow, so it would make sense that metals would be dropping out of solution in those places. Also- they are ONLY on the floor- nothing on the walls, & only twice have had a very faint greyish ring that wiped off easily with my hand.
Based on the stains, treatments I’ve done, etc…. What are your thoughts???
I am leaning towards these stains being copper related…but to me, they didn’t/dont look like copper stains- they didn’t have the same appearance or colours as that photo examples I saw.
Do they look like or sound like copper stains to you???
I REALLY appreciate you taking the time to read through all this Texas Splash!! (And anyone else as well!!) And I’m grateful for your input!!! This quite a learning curve- that I never expected! Any thoughts on how I should proceed with the stains (after I get things levelled out and I get guidance SLAMMING it. )
I wanted to work on building a solar water heater this summer but I’ve spent all my time trying to get this straightened out. I think I will go ahead and get those filters that can be attached yo the hose. The hoses can be hooked onto a small portable pump and the water in the pool recirculated through them, so any metals should be removed and maybe I can start from fresh. Thanks again for your help. Pictures below of the Ionizer - (don’t remember how it works exactly but I’ve included before & after pictures…)
Patti

TEXAS SPLASH!!! I’ve just posted another comment on here. After you read this one, check out what I wrote! It’s quite interesting! Patti

 

[Patti]

My CYA is between 30-50. It was the 2nd time I’d shocked it because my FC was showing zero ?!? I had done AA and algaecide treatments
and the water was cloudy. After the second shock the Chlorine & cya levels were okay according to the chart on here. Chlorine was 5. I have a chlorinator but have it down as low as it can go at the moment (wanted to adjust slowly) to keep cya in balance.
I used granular (powder) shock - put in according to manufacturer’s directions.(my pool is just over 11,000 gallons/43,000L)
I’ll read that info on black algae, thanks. I’ll let you know what I find out about vinyl. I’m going to maintain the chlorine at 5 with liquid. Except for my hardness level being off the chart, I have kept my pool perfectly balanced with very little effort- no need to use any chemicals except the chlorine. It only started messing up when these stains started to appear and I started trying to get rid of them. (And the stains may be related to a floating Solar Ionizer I had in the pool). It was supposed to inhibit algae and reduce chlorine use. I never added algaecide- never had a problem last year or this year- except for one spot about 8” in diameter in a low flow corner that appeared at the very end of last season. (*I DID use algaecide/shock etc when closing for the winter and upon reopening.) The spot was still there when I reopened , and there may have been one other small one. It was after trying to scrub them with brushes & Mr. Clean eraser that I started to wonder what was going on and learned alllllll about metals in suspension. I had no idea- I’d never had a problem with any other above ground pools I’ve had. Learning something new every day. Just wish whatever the stains were hadn’t removed the colour from my brand new, custom-cut$$$ liner.(I only poured Ascorbic acid down a tube on one of them, so that wasn’t the cause- wherever the stains were, the liner is a noticeable darker shade of blue, and any of the white pattern that was on the liner in the same area is gone. That’s what made me wonder if it could be algae… like it was ‘eating away’ at the liner. That and the fact that after a lot of the stain had lifted, there were small black circles scattered about (like paper from a hole punch). Just trying to figure this all out!! Thanks for your input. Patti

Pv2!!! I read the article on black algae, then proceeded to do some research online. I described my situation in detail to Texas Splash, so if you read that, you’ll understand the comment I JUST posted about Black Algae (which CAN & does grow in vinyl pools!) This information is the perfect explanation for my stains!! I’ve included a couple of links. I don’t know how to share them with Admin. Patti

 

[Texas Splash]

Patti, I caught up with your posts. I applaud your efforts to find a root cause to your problems, but remember, it's fruitless without a proper test kit. Some of the theories you noted above may have nothing to do with your situation, and you'll end up driving yourself nuts. To put it into perspective, we have literally thousands of pool owners here in the southern part of the US whose pools are close to seal level with extremely high water tables. With a strong storm the pool is 100% under storm water. I don't think I've ever encountered a situation where the staining was from that water. A liner is fairly thin, so in theory something dark might be leave a shaded spot, but I'm more inclined to focus on the water you can control and test. The copper is definitely a legitimate issue and it's good you stopped using it. Unfortunately it may have already added enough copper to cause problems.

In the end though, I personally wouldn't worry about the stains right now. I would focus on obtaining a TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C test kit first, then take actions to balance your water properly. If there is algae, we'll coach you through a SLAM Process. If the CH is indeed too high, we'll show you how to reduce that as well. But it all starts with the proper testing. That's where I would focus my efforts rigth now.

 

[Patti]

Patti, I caught up with your posts. I applaud your efforts to find a root cause to your problems, but remember, it's fruitless without a proper test kit. Some of the theories you noted above may have nothing to do with your situation, and you'll end up driving yourself nuts. To put it into perspective, we have literally thousands of pool owners here in the southern part of the US whose pools are close to seal level with extremely high water tables. With a strong storm the pool is 100% under storm water. I don't think I've ever encountered a situation where the staining was from that water. A liner is fairly thin, so in theory something dark might be leave a shaded spot, but I'm more inclined to focus on the water you can control and test. The copper is definitely a legitimate issue and it's good you stopped using it. Unfortunately it may have already added enough copper to cause problems.

In the end though, I personally wouldn't worry about the stains right now. I would focus on obtaining a TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C test kit first, then take actions to balance your water properly. If there is algae, we'll coach you through a SLAM Process. If the CH is indeed too high, we'll show you how to reduce that as well. But it all starts with the proper testing. That's where I would focus my efforts rigth now.

Yup! I do have the K-2006 (FAS-DPD) kit- but was having trouble finding the replacement reagents. I found one that a fellow Ontarian recommended, so I was just making up my list to order.
Is there any significant difference between the K-2006 kit and the K-2006’C’???
I ordered this test not this spring, but the spring before that. When it arrived some of the reagents were outdated and others were not far off- BUT the retailer refunded my total cost- and let me keep the whole kit.
Most of the reagents now have 2020 dates on them…but I really can’t afford to replace every single bottle right now if I can get away with it…
Do you know if there are any that ‘should be okay’ to use with the April 2020 date- and those that DEFINITELY have to be fresh?
I will try & tag @JoyfulNoise about this as well (not sure I know how!) But I’m hoping his knowledge of chemistry could help direct me!
Here is the list of reagents in the kit (some of which I’m out of so will have to replace anyways):
FREE & COMBINED CHLORINE:
•R-0870 DPD Powder
•R-0871 FAS-DPD Titrating Reagent
•R-0003 DPD Reagent #3

pH TEST:
•R-0004 pH Indicator Solution-phenol red
•R-0005 Acid Demand Reagent
•R-0006 Base Demand Reagent

TOTAL ALKALINITY TEST:
•R-0007 Thiosulphate N/10
•R-0008 Total Alkalinity Indicator
•R-0009 Sulfuric Acid .12N

CALCIUM HARDNESS TEST:
•R-0010 Calcium Buffer
•R-0011L Calcium Indicator Liquid
-R-0012 Hardness Reagent

CYANURIC ACID TEST:
•R-0013 Cyanuric Acid Reagent


***For the Calcium Hardness Test…
I used the smaller 10ml sample size and I still ran out of the Reagents after just a couple of tests because my CH is over 800+++ (according to the strips).

I know it is high…so I don’t want to keep putting out money for the reagents if I already know it will be off the charts.
You mentioned something called Cal-Hypo??? If I use this product is it going to throw other levels out of whack? Will I have to compensate?
What exactly is it (besides a calcium reducer or eliminator) and do you know of any other brand names it might go under? (Being in Canada, quite often we can’t get the products you guys in the States use- ie. I can’t get Metal Magic up here and couldn’t find any U.S. Retailers - or even the distribution company itself- that would let me order from them!!

So, while it’s great that people discuss products that work for them…it would be SO HELPFUL if people could include other brand names that have the same ingredients. If they don’t know of any other brand names, if they could at least post the ingredients, it helps us here up North to search for products that have the same chemical composition. It IS time consuming though, and I never did find a Canadian equivalent to Metal Magic.

Is there a page dedicated to Resources/Useful Links? where Info like that could be added??
If members could share that kind of information -about comparable products and/or specific ingredient lists, and other pertinent info such as: supply companies that DO ship to Canada, or names of retailers they know of in Canada, or places that have good prices/sales on products… that kind of stuff- it would be SO helpful!!!

I would have loved to have a resource like that rather than wasting weeks contacting the manufacturer numerous times, waiting for responses, and never getting any after initial inquiries were made. And I spent a lot of time contacting U.S. Retailers, Amazon sellers etc too….which all proved fruitless. I’ve been trying to get on top of this for almost 2 months now…so I’m sure you can imagine my frustration!!

How long should I keep the FC at 5 before we do the SLAM? (Or- I guess we will do it as soon as I get the reagents?)

One more question…I got some bleach yesterday. However, it didn’t have the breakdown of ingredients on it like the Purox and liquid chlorine jugs did.
Should I assume it will contain the same ingredients & amounts??
Is this used to shock with? (as opposed to the powder granules I’ve used in the past).
How do you know how much to put in? What should your FC and CC levels go up to when you shock? If you add 2 jugs say, how long do you wait before testing the water? Will shock levels affect other readings? Do I just ignore those until the FC is back around 5 and start testing then? I’ve never used liquid chlorine before, so this is all new to me! After it’s been SLAMMED and I get it balanced, When can I start using my chlorinator again? I assume I start dispensing at 1 and monitor (daily? Every few days?) and gradually turn it up until I consistently get 3-5ppm readings?
And if you know anything about the shelf life of those reagents, I’d appreciate your input!
THANK YOU!!!! THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU!!!

 

[Patti]

Yup! I do have the K-2006 (FAS-DPD) kit- but was having trouble finding the replacement reagents. I found one that a fellow Ontarian recommended, so I was just making up my list to order.
Is there any significant difference between the K-2006 kit and the K-2006’C’???
I ordered this test not this spring, but the spring before that. When it arrived some of the reagents were outdated and others were not far off- BUT the retailer refunded my total cost- and let me keep the whole kit.
Most of the reagents now have 2020 dates on them…but I really can’t afford to replace every single bottle right now if I can get away with it…
Do you know if there are any that ‘should be okay’ to use with the April 2020 date- and those that DEFINITELY have to be fresh?
I will try & tag Joyful Noise about this as well (not sure I know how!) But I’m hoping his knowledge of chemistry could help direct me!
Here is the list of reagents in the kit (some of which I’m out of so will have to replace anyways):
FREE & COMBINED CHLORINE:
•R-0870 DPD Powder
•R-0871 FAS-DPD Titrating Reagent
•R-0003 DPD Reagent #3

pH TEST:
•R-0004 pH Indicator Solution-phenol red
•R-0005 Acid Demand Reagent
•R-0006 Base Demand Reagent

TOTAL ALKALINITY TEST:
•R-0007 Thiosulphate N/10
•R-0008 Total Alkalinity Indicator
•R-0009 Sulfuric Acid .12N

CALCIUM HARDNESS TEST:
•R-0010 Calcium Buffer
•R-0011L Calcium Indicator Liquid
-R-0012 Hardness Reagent

CYANURIC ACID TEST:
•R-0013 Cyanuric Acid Reagent


***For the Calcium Hardness Test…
I used the smaller 10ml sample size and I still ran out of the Reagents after just a couple of tests because my CH is over 800+++ (according to the strips).

I know it is high…so I don’t want to keep putting out money for the reagents if I already know it will be off the charts.
You mentioned something called Cal-Hypo??? If I use this product is it going to throw other levels out of whack? Will I have to compensate?
What exactly is it (besides a calcium reducer or eliminator) and do you know of any other brand names it might go under? (Being in Canada, quite often we can’t get the products you guys in the States use- ie. I can’t get Metal Magic up here and couldn’t find any U.S. Retailers - or even the distribution company itself- that would let me order from them!!

So, while it’s great that people discuss products that work for them…it would be SO HELPFUL if people could include other brand names that have the same ingredients. If they don’t know of any other brand names, if they could at least post the ingredients, it helps us here up North to search for products that have the same chemical composition. It IS time consuming though, and I never did find a Canadian equivalent to Metal Magic.

Is there a page dedicated to Resources/Useful Links? where Info like that could be added??
If members could share that kind of information -about comparable products and/or specific ingredient lists, and other pertinent info such as: supply companies that DO ship to Canada, or names of retailers they know of in Canada, or places that have good prices/sales on products… that kind of stuff- it would be SO helpful!!!

I would have loved to have a resource like that rather than wasting weeks contacting the manufacturer numerous times, waiting for responses, and never getting any after initial inquiries were made. And I spent a lot of time contacting U.S. Retailers, Amazon sellers etc too….which all proved fruitless. I’ve been trying to get on top of this for almost 2 months now…so I’m sure you can imagine my frustration!!

How long should I keep the FC at 5 before we do the SLAM? (Or- I guess we will do it as soon as I get the reagents?)

One more question…I got some bleach yesterday. However, it didn’t have the breakdown of ingredients on it like the Purox and liquid chlorine jugs did.
Should I assume it will contain the same ingredients & amounts??
Is this used to shock with? (as opposed to the powder granules I’ve used in the past).
How do you know how much to put in? What should your FC and CC levels go up to when you shock? If you add 2 jugs say, how long do you wait before testing the water? Will shock levels affect other readings? Do I just ignore those until the FC is back around 5 and start testing then? I’ve never used liquid chlorine before, so this is all new to me! After it’s been SLAMMED and I get it balanced, When can I start using my chlorinator again? I assume I start dispensing at 1 and monitor (daily? Every few days?) and gradually turn it up until I consistently get 3-5ppm readings?
And if you know anything about the shelf life of those reagents, I’d appreciate your input!
THANK YOU!!!! THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU!!!

P.S. I couldn’t figure out how to tag other people. Can you tell me how to do it? I will send this message to Joyful Noise as well. Thanks!

 

[Texas Splash]

You want the "C" model it if possible. It has larger reagent bottles. Cal-Hypo is not a calcium reducer, it adds calcium, so you definitely do not want to use anything like that. For additional links that might help you, be sure to go to the bottom of each page and look for "TFP Wiki" There's some good stuff in there. Yes, try to keep the FC at about 5 ppm until you get your reagents so we can validate your levels properly. We don't want you to waste time and money on bad testing results. To determine how much of a chemical to add, it's good to use the PoolMath APP and look for "Effects of Adding". from there, you can select an item and determine how much to add or what it will do.

To tag someone, put the "@" symbol in front of their username. For example: @Texas Splash.

 

[Patti]

Edit: I see the experts have chimed in again since writing this novel of a reply. Follow their advice to a T, you’re in good hands here as I’ve always found out!

Hey Patti, I’m new to the pool game or rather spending this season refreshing my memory. The first step is getting free chlorine in your pool, this is the most important! It’s not safe to swim in by any means with no free chlorine. If there’s any hope to swim this season, do the following.

According to your 30-50 CYA range (we will go by 50) you are going to want to add 76oz of 6% bleach. Just your regular run of the mill non-concentrated bleach. You need to get chlorine in your pool stat! I would add the chlorine tonight, wait an hour and then test with your strip.

Tomorrow morning recheck your chlorine level and compare to the test the night prior. Come back with these numbers and then the experts can work on the rest.

Thanks for your input!! I’m getting tgere! My pool is always balanced- until now- when I started trying to deal with these stains. But, as of yesterday, I think it may be something totally unrelated to metals- and it may be due being produced by microbes UNDER the pool liner. I live on a floodplain- so there’s a high water table and the river does come up to my pool sometimes. I think the felt got wet with river water and this is what’s happening. So…might mean replacing my brand new (& custom cut ) liner, as well as putting a polyethylene sheet on the bottom and up the sides of the pool beneath the new liner. (Sigh…) What can you do??? It’s a big ole learning curve for me, that’s for sure!!!

 

[Texas Splash]

Not all chlorine (or bleach) is created equal. First, b sure it's regular or plain. Avoid anything that says splashless or scented unless you want a cloudy bubble bath. Also avoid the Clorox brand bleach. If it doesn't show a percentage on the ingredients, it's probably very low and not worth getting. Here are some basic ingredients:

- liquid chlorine/regular bleach - sodium hypochlorite
- muriatic acid - hypocaloric acid
- Baking soda - Sodium bicarbonate

 

[cj133]

You want the "C" model it if possible. It has larger reagent bottles. Cal-Hypo is not a calcium reducer, it adds calcium, so you definitely do not want to use anything like that. For additional links that might help you, be sure to go to the bottom of each page and look for "TFP Wiki" There's some good stuff in there. Yes, try to keep the FC at about 5 ppm until you get your reagents so we can validate your levels properly. We don't want you to waste time and money on bad testing results. To determine how much of a chemical to add, it's good to use the PoolMath APP and look for "Effects of Adding". from there, you can select an item and determine how much to add or what it will do.

To tag someone, put the "@" symbol in front of their username. For example: @Texas Splash.

I'd disagree with that.
I originally had the "C" kit but most of my chemicals went bad, just way too much.
I later bought the normal 2006 and then buy the "C" version of the FAS-DPD powder and liquid. For CYA I go all the way and buy a 16oz E bottle.

For for everything else, the smaller bottles work best for me.

The E bottle of CYA stuff doesn't fit obviously, but the C FAS-DPD powder and liquid fit fine in the smaller kit.

 

[Patti]

You want the "C" model it if possible. It has larger reagent bottles. Cal-Hypo is not a calcium reducer, it adds calcium, so you definitely do not want to use anything like that. For additional links that might help you, be sure to go to the bottom of each page and look for "TFP Wiki" There's some good stuff in there. Yes, try to keep the FC at about 5 ppm until you get your reagents so we can validate your levels properly. We don't want you to waste time and money on bad testing results. To determine how much of a chemical to add, it's good to use the PoolMath APP and look for "Effects of Adding". from there, you can select an item and determine how much to add or what it will do.

To tag someone, put the "@" symbol in front of their username. For example: @Texas Splash.

Thank you! If I don’t have the ‘C’ kit- can’t I just order larger bottles of the reagents (rather than the small 2 oz ones? The drops will probably be the same, right?
Is there any specific product you can recommend to bring that calcium level down?

 

[Texas Splash]

If I don’t have the ‘C’ kit- can’t I just order larger bottles of the reagents (rather than the small 2 oz ones?

You can. Drops will be the same. How long they last depends on your levels and how much you test. Since you will be doing a SLAM and may be testing FC, CC, and CYA fairly often, you want to be sure to have plenty of those. The others vary on use. As you noted, you burned through a lot of CH reagents since your levels were so high, so that's something else to consider.

 

[Patti]

I'd disagree with that.
I originally had the "C" kit but most of my chemicals went bad, just way too much.
I later bought the normal 2006 and then buy the "C" version of the FAS-DPD powder and liquid. For CYA I go all the way and buy a 16oz E bottle.

For for everything else, the smaller bottles work best for me.

The E bottle of CYA stuff doesn't fit obviously, but the C FAS-DPD powder and liquid fit fine in the smaller kit.

thanks for that input! Very helpful! I’m finding the same thing- some bottles are still nearly full, but the calcium & cya reagents I went through fast! The small DPD powder seems to last okay, but I’d hazard a guess that this IS one that NEEDS to be replaced if it’s outdated. Any ideas as to which ones you think I ‘might’ be able to get away with using, even though they are outdated? I didn’t even know there were different sizes of the reagents available, so that’s been good to learn! I think I’ll do what you do and only order the big bottles of those ones I go through a lot of! Thanks again! Patti