Maintaining BOR

[Chrissu]

Send feature requests to [email protected]

The Ideal/Suggested ranges are based on the pool surface types and method of chlorination. They are based on TFP standards.

Feature request submitted.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Exactly. That’s all the more reason to get away from hard coded recommendations that are not always recommended on this site by mods. Customizability of this nature will be a win for all.

The version history listed on the App Store shows 6 years of release information with the most recent update being a year ago.

Just trying to help with a fresh perspective from a new guy. Sometimes that helps.

TFP recommendations are there for a reason - they are consistent and applicable to the most number of pools and they are easy to follow for new users. If someone later on needs to make adjustments after learning how to take care of their pools then so be it, they can use whatever levels they like. But it is much more chaotic and more work to go without standards and then have to field the same questions about “what should my levels be” 50,000 times during the season. The recommended levels are there for a good reason and they represent a good starting point for the most number of pool users. They won’t be going away anytime soon …

 

[Mdragger88]

Ideal is a smaller range than recommended.
A ta of 50 still falls into the recommended range.
Don’t sweat it.
Ta is one of the last parameters to worry about unless it is below 50.

 

[Newdude]

Ideal is a smaller range than recommended.

Thats my beef with it, and its a common ploy of the pool store. 'You're numbers are ok, but they need to be ok-er'.

Ones parameters (pool type, chlorine source, climate, fill water, etc) should dictate it all, not some one size fits all arbitrary number, inside the ok range.

Will most pools land there on their own, sure. But too many newbs chase their tail trying to be more ok than ok. Folks in the southeast want their CYA, Salt and CH a little on the high side expecting up to 70 inches of rain per year or theyll be adding them all frequently. Folks in the southwest want to start with CH a bit low knowing it will rise soon enough trying to extend the eventual water exchange. Folks in the middle might contend with 200 TA fill water and a little of both the Left and Right's parameters.

Maybe renaming it to 'most common' or such would erase alot of the confusion.

 

[Chrissu]

Send feature requests to [email protected]

The Ideal/Suggested ranges are based on the pool surface types and method of chlorination. They are based on TFP standards.

Matt and others,

I heard from Leebo and he shared some thoughts on the customization idea I hadn't considered. I can see now that making the ideal ranges customizable doesn't make sense. Chlorine is a notable example.

Let me ask you this... Mdragger88 had recommended keeping TA at 50-60 so that PH doesn't swing so much. That seems like a promising idea and that's what I'm doing now. Are there any negatives you can think of to this approach? I'm trying to determine if the ideal level based on TFP standards is still 60-80 because if it is, 70 becomes the target level that I need to adjust to, which means more PH swings than necessary. Since 50-60 is still in the recommended range, then is 50-60 a better "ideal" range?

Also, does the app provide different tailored ideal ranges based on 1 - the pool surface type defined and 2- chlorination method defined in the app? This would be good to know.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[proavia]

Don't look at "ideal" ranges - as long as the results are in the recommended range, it's good enough.
Just turn off "ideal range" in PoolMath and forget about it.
Don't micro manage your pool water.

There are slight variations in certain ranges for both pool surface (vinyl, plaster/pebble) and chlorination method (liquid chlorine, SWG).

 

[JoyfulNoise]

If a person were to manage their pool using chlorine pucks (trichlor), say, someone who lives on the northeast that draws water from an aquifer with low TA and low pH (more common there), then having a TA in the 50-60ppm range as a recommendation would likely cause them to have a crashing pH and constantly adding baking soda to support the TA that gets reduced by the acidic chlorine source and rain water overflow that has almost no alkalinity in it. That user would need to keep their TA closer to upper range and might even benefit from having a TA near 90 or 100ppm. They’d likely have a vinyl liner pool (more common there) and so CSI is mostly irrelevant.

And yes, the App has different ranges and targets for different pool surfaces.

 

[Chrissu]

Don't look at "ideal" ranges - as long as the results are in the recommended range, it's good enough.
Just turn off "ideal range" in PoolMath and forget about it.
Don't micro manage your pool water.

There are slight variations in certain ranges for both pool surface (vinyl, plaster/pebble) and chlorination method (liquid chlorine, SWG).

You’re the second person that thinks you can turn off the ideal ranges. There is no such option! What you are getting confused with is the option to turn off the ideal alerts from being displayed across the top of the screen. Test the setting both ways and you’ll see that I’m right.

Programmatically, I’m mainly trying to determine if the ideal ranges provided by the app in its current release are truly ideal or not. Matt shared an example where tricolor tablets can add a variable that the app does not account for today. This variable can cause the ideal range to provide an inaccurate ideal range, that’s all this is. I’m most interested in this topic from a programming perspective so thanks for your input. It’s all good and I’m not too worried about my own pool’s TA levels.

 

[proavia]

Yeah, I meant alerts. This way the test results summary page doesn't show the out of range notices.
I just ignore the "ideal" levels on the test specific pages. The ranges listed are not inaccurate.

Be flexible. Try TA at 70 and see if the pH rises too quickly for your liking. If it does, lower TA to 60 or even 50 and try again. Everyones pool is different. That's why there are ranges. You aren't making rocket fuel, it's just pool water. Close is close enough - just like in horseshoes and hand grenades.

After you've used the TFP method for a while, you will better learn what your pool needs and what ranges work best for you. We could be neighbors, have used the same pool builder, have the exact same pool and equipment - and our pools would still act/respond a bit differently.

 

[Chrissu]

If a person were to manage their pool using chlorine pucks (trichlor), say, someone who lives on the northeast that draws water from an aquifer with low TA and low pH (more common there), then having a TA in the 50-60ppm range as a recommendation would likely cause them to have a crashing pH and constantly adding baking soda to support the TA that gets reduced by the acidic chlorine source and rain water overflow that has almost no alkalinity in it. That user would need to keep their TA closer to upper range and might even benefit from having a TA near 90 or 100ppm. They’d likely have a vinyl liner pool (more common there) and so CSI is mostly irrelevant.

And yes, the App has different ranges and targets for different pool surfaces.

I appreciate the example you provided. If I understand correctly, the root cause in that scenario would be pool water that is presumably out of balance due to higher than recommended CYA levels. With balanced pool water, my understanding from this site is that ongoing MA demand will tend to be higher when TA is maintained around 90 vs say 60.

This is very helpful so thanks for sharing your knowledge to a newbie like myself.

 

[Bperry]

my understanding from this site is that ongoing MA demand will tend to be higher when TA is maintained around 90 vs say 60

Only if you're chlorinating with a SWG or liquid chlorine.

 

[Chrissu]

Only if you're chlorinating with a SWG or liquid chlorine.

Thanks Bperry

 

[PoolStored]

With balanced pool water, my understanding from this site is that ongoing MA demand will tend to be higher when TA is maintained around 90 vs say 60.

The major things that cause pH rise (MA demand):
High TA.
Low pH.
Uncovered pool.
New plaster

Things that slow pH rise:
Lower TA (60-90)
higher pH (7.8-8.2)
Covered pool (solar cover)
Older Plaster
Borates

 

[Chrissu]

The major things that cause pH rise (MA demand):
High TA.
Low pH.
Uncovered pool.
New plaster

Things that slow pH rise:
Lower TA (60-90)
higher pH (7.8-8.2)
Covered pool (solar cover)
Older Plaster
Borates

Thanks for sharing these examples. Seeing it summarized this way is helpful.

Funny how pool stores don’t know much about the many benefits of Borates.

 

[Mdragger88]

Thanks for sharing these examples. Seeing it summarized this way is helpful.

Funny how pool stores don’t know much about the many benefits of Borates.

Oh they do…
but they call it “optimizer” & charge 3x’s the price.

 

[PoolStored]

Funny how pool stores don’t know much about the many benefits of Borates.

There are downsides. Borates will lower pH when you add them. If you add borates, say when at pH is at 7.6, to a 30K pool, your pH will lower to 7.4...and stay there.

There are other side effects. There are other empirically derived indices that are used to predict when corrosion MIGHT be possible. The Pukorius Index (PI) and Ryznar Index (RI) are used in this regard, with my test results and worst case scenario (CSI < -0.9), my Ryznar Index value is 9.15. Anything over 8 is considered corrosive to steel. Even if I increase my CH to 250ppm and my TA to 80, the RI would still be 8.2. This is corrosive towards steel. Either way, these indices only tell me what COULD happen, not what will happen. In my case, my 316 Marine Stainless Steel ladder shows significant signs of corrosion.

Given my experience, I would avoid borates and simply manage pH with muriatic acid.

 

[Chrissu]

There are downsides. Borates will lower pH when you add them. If you add borates, say when at pH is at 7.6, to a 30K pool, your pH will lower to 7.4...and stay there.

There are other side effects. There are other empirically derived indices that are used to predict when corrosion MIGHT be possible. The Pukorius Index (PI) and Ryznar Index (RI) are used in this regard, with my test results and worst case scenario (CSI < -0.9), my Ryznar Index value is 9.15. Anything over 8 is considered corrosive to steel. Even if I increase my CH to 250ppm and my TA to 80, the RI would still be 8.2. This is corrosive towards steel. Either way, these indices only tell me what COULD happen, not what will happen. In my case, my 316 Marine Stainless Steel ladder shows significant signs of corrosion.

Given my experience, I would avoid borates and simply manage pH with muriatic acid.

already borated the pool.

There are downsides. Borates will lower pH when you add them. If you add borates, say when at pH is at 7.6, to a 30K pool, your pH will lower to 7.4...and stay there.

There are other side effects. There are other empirically derived indices that are used to predict when corrosion MIGHT be possible. The Pukorius Index (PI) and Ryznar Index (RI) are used in this regard, with my test results and worst case scenario (CSI < -0.9), my Ryznar Index value is 9.15. Anything over 8 is considered corrosive to steel. Even if I increase my CH to 250ppm and my TA to 80, the RI would still be 8.2. This is corrosive towards steel. Either way, these indices only tell me what COULD happen, not what will happen. In my case, my 316 Marine Stainless Steel ladder shows significant signs of corrosion.

Given my experience, I would avoid borates and simply manage pH with muriatic acid.

Are you saying that after you added boric acid, your PH stayed low enough that you no longer needed to add MA? Or, does PH eventually rise above 8.0?

I’ve added the recommended amount of boric acid to my pool but I still have to add MA to keep the ph in check. In fact, I have a doser adding about 8oz of 15% MA every day now. Going that route keeps PH at about 7.7. The pool has never been clearer than it is now. It’s surprisingly clear in fact.

 

[PoolStored]

Are you saying that after you added boric acid, your PH stayed low enough that you no longer needed to add MA? Or, does PH eventually rise above 8.0?

Your pool math logs are incomplete and do not show your chemical additions. You should add them to pool math as you add chemicals...really helps us troubleshoot what you are doing.

There are many variables.
You have a plaster pool, I have a vinyl pool. How new is the plaster?
I live in Ohio and my fill water TA is low, we get lots of rain and very little evaporation and CO2 outgassing with a solar cover. Do you have an autofill? Do you have a solar cover? What is the TA of your fill water?

Last year was third year of borates. I will suspend the use of borates this year.

Yes, after adding Boric Acid, my pH sat at 7.4 all year the previous two years without the need to add MA.

 

[Chrissu]

Hello PoolStored, I'm not in need of help with the pool at the present time but I do appreciate the help that you have provided in the past. It's dialed in exactly where I want it now. Thanks!