Low Skimmer Flow Issues

[jmc13]

Hello everyone. I am new to TFP, and also a new home owner that purchased a home with a pool. I am looking for some help.

Forgive me if this is long winded, but I want to make sure I let you know the details, as well as what troubleshooting has been done, and all of the things I noticed in case they are all connected or I have more than one issue.

Pool Details:
I have a 15,000 gallon pool with a raised spa with a spillway from the spa to the pool. The pool is pebble tech, with an in floor cleaning system. The pool pump was replaced in November 2019 with a Pentair 3.0HP intelliflow VSP. The pool is controlled by an Aqualink RS8 controller installed in the kitchen. The pool has a heater, and there is also a separate pump the runs a large waterfall. The pool was built in 2004. (I attached photos of plumbing).

I purchased the home in December 2020. I have done very little in the way of maintenance. I replaced the autofill float after it kept getting stuck, cleaned cartridges in the spring and fall and adjust chemicals as needed. Other than a neighbor lighting illegal fireworks on 4th of July and the debris blowing in my pool causing algae for a week or two, it is pretty self sustaining and easy to take care of. As I live in a very windy, dusty area, after trial and error, I have three different schedules running on the pump. (12A-4AM 1000 RPM @ 8 PSI, 7 AM-1 PM 2550 RPM @ 14 PSI, and 1 PM - 5 PM 2250 RPM @ 12 PSI) I also run these schedules as a flock of doves are constantly trying to live in my spillway, the constant movement of the spillway scares them enough they stopped coming back to my yard.


In October 2020 I stopped the afternoon schedule and lowered the morning schedule down to 1500 RPM. I noticed that the spa was draining into the pool overnight. I also noticed that previously when I wanted to clean the pump basket that when I popped the top off the pump after pressure releasing, that the water would flow from the skimmer line towards the cartridge housing. I found this convenient to get the extra debris in the basket before I closed everything up. Now that the spa was going "backwards" I noticed that the flow is now going from the cartridge housing towards the skimmer. Essentially blowing the debris out the basket into the lines. Once closing the pump lid and turning it all back on, the same debris blew right back into the basket. As I still had a home warranty I called them; a pool company came a couple weeks later; was told that it was the spa check valve. He also noticed the check valve near the Caretaker 5, and mentioned that if spa was bad that other would be too. We went ahead and replaced them. I cleaned the pump basket after he left, and it seemed to halt the flow out the pump basket when the lid was opened, but the pool took a little longer to prime, but assumed that was due to the lower RPM the schedule was set to, and him opening valves up. However, everything was functioning as normal (pressure, RPMS, flow, popups, GPM, etc) so I let it go.

About a week later, huge wind storm, next day I was out there brushing and heard air in the caretaker pipes, and noticed that when I cleaned the pump basket again a little longer to prime, yet everything was normal.

Two weeks later, another dust storm with a lot of debris. I work 12 hour days so its dark before and after work so I didn't check it for a couple days. Come out, debris in pool, and skimmer is filled to the top, and just a small amount in the pump basket. Cleaned everything out, brushed the pool and cleaned out pump basket, this time priming took forever. It just didn't seem to want to fill at all. I stopped the pump, let it hang out and tried again, when that didn't work I upped the RPMS to 2800 and it worked. There was a lot of air blowing out the returns/popups, and I noticed that the check valve near the Caretaker was half filled with air (attached photo). I switched Aqualink to spa mode everything worked 100% fine let it clean for 30 mins, switched it back to pool mode and everything "fixed" itself, however, I noticed that the GPM was less than normal (65GPM, to 40GPM @ 1500 RPM @ 10 PSI). Went to the skimmer, checked, flow looked normal, weir moving, cartridge housing pressure was normal, everything looked normal.

Googled this, quite a few things come up, however in Spa mode everything is 100% fine so I ruled out the cartridges and seemed to come up that I have a clog in the line or the impeller was clogged. Go outside, turn everything off, pull out skimmer look for clog in skimmer hole (none), take out pump basket and cleaned a golf ball amount of stringy grass debris off impeller. Put it all back together, turned it all back on and now things are much worse. Even less flow out of skimmer, took even longer to prime. It took to almost 3450 RPM to get the water to flow correctly to prime, this time I noticed that the pool pressure is about 10-12 PSI higher than normal, going way over its normal 20 PSI at that RPM, the caretaker valve was showing high as well, and a tiny amount of water leaking out the Caretaker union, and GPM is much lower than normal. Once it primed I immediately returned it back to 1500 RPM and normal pressure. I walked around, low skimmer flow, half air in check valve, but everything was functioning. Lowered it to 1000 RPM, check valve filled as normal. As its been getting down to 20 degrees at night, I made a schedule for 12 AM - 7 AM at 1000 RPM and left it alone.

This past weekend, I decide to try to clear the "blockage". I closed the skimmer and checked the main drain to see what was going on; no improvement on the flow. Closed MD, opened skimmer, no improvement. I left MD opened a little and cycled skimmer on and off for about 20 mins, with no change to flow or addition of debris in the pump basket, besides two small leaves in there. Closed the skimmer and MD and return valve (don't normally do this), released pressure and tried to get pump basket off. The system would not let air out, after fighting with the lid, eventually I opened all valves, pressure released and as usual all the debris rushed into skimmer line, so it was useless. Put it all back together, turned it all back on and now things are much worse. Even less flow out of skimmer, took even longer to prime, the pressure skyrocketed to 38 PSI @ 3450 RPM, I turned it off. I switched it to spa mode turned it on at 1500 RPM @ 10 PSI and it primed at 65 GPM and blew out tons of air out the returns in the spa, let it run until no bubbles. Stopped and tried in pool mode, and it was just blowing air through the popups with only 12 GPM now. The check valve was mostly air, but normal pressure at caretaker and pressure release. I stopped it, waited to see if the check valve would fill, nothing. Started it again at 1000 RPM, with 7 GPM, the check valve filled and everything was functioning in a limited low flow capacity (popups working, but barely). I have tried a few times since then in Spa mode and it functions 100% normal as it should. I switch back to pool mode and it goes right back to this new state of barely limping.

There are no visible leaks, I use pool lube on the o ring of the cartridge housing as well as the pump basket. Visually everything looks fine, except the no flow and how dirty my pool is becoming.

With all of that said, Is there some error on the part of the tech replacing the check valves or is this a blockage I can't clear or something else like air leak? I feel like I am running out of things to troubleshoot, and I make it worse when I open the pump basket.

Thanks

 

[zea3]

Hi, welcome to TFP! Can you post another shot of the check valve from farther back so we can see it in relation to the rest of the equipment pad?

 

[jmc13]

Hi,
This is check valve in particular is not at the equipment pad. They put this behind the pool, behind the waterfall nowhere near any of the other equipment. This is the only picture I have of it. I can take another when I get home if need be.

 

[Jimrahbe]

jmc,

I read through your post a couple of times, and I'm sure it is just me, but I am totally confused. Please tell me in one sentence what the specific problem is.

When you are in the pool mode and with just the skimmer on (MD closed) what is your indication that something is not working? What is the pump's RPM when you are having the issue? And is the pump running in the RPM mode or the GPM mode?

Let's start there and see what happens..

As a side note, your neighbor's fireworks trash had absolutely nothing to do with you getting Alage. After your algae bloom, have you cleaned your cartridges?

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[jmc13]

After my check valves were replaced. The pump no longer primes. I have lo/almost no flow through the skimmer into the pump. The intelliflo pump has a control panel on it that you can click through, it tells you GPM, PSI, and watts at any RPM you set it to. This panel now shows 7GPM, at any RPM I set it to (1000-2800) with no action from the skimmer basket. Once the RPMs get above 2500 the pressure spikes (both pump and pressure relief valve match). This is also the same thing with the MD. In Spa mode everything is completely fine.

Yes, I shocked, NoPhos'd and cleaned the filters. I was just pointing out that has been my only issue till now. I was informed fireworks have phosphorus, which feeds algae, and my phos levels went from 50 the week before to 500 that week.

 

[Jimrahbe]

jmc,

Let's assume the new check valves are the issue..

The pic that shows a check valve that is circled in red. It appears to me that the check valve is installed backwards.

I would have assumed the water comes in from the pump on the left and then goes into the check valve and down and over the IFCS input.

There is no way for me to know for sure which pipe is which, but if this were my pool, as a test, I would remove the flapper from both new check valves and see if system started to work like it should. I'd do the check valve by the IFCS first and see what happens, then move to the other new check valve.

If it does not help, at least you would know they are not the problem.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Poolbreh]

Hi, What does that diverter valve on the pool return do? One side is 2.5” the other is 2”. What size pipe is going into the check valve by the IFCS?

 

[jmc13]

jmc,

Let's assume the new check valves are the issue..

The pic that shows a check valve that is circled in red. It appears to me that the check valve is installed backwards.

I would have assumed the water comes in from the pump on the left and then goes into the check valve and down and over the IFCS input.

There is no way for me to know for sure which pipe is which, but if this were my pool, as a test, I would remove the flapper from both new check valves and see if system started to work like it should. I'd do the check valve by the IFCS first and see what happens, then move to the other new check valve.

If it does not help, at least you would know they are not the problem.

Thanks,

Jim R.

a close up of the in floor cleaning system and the check valve. It seems it goes from the Caretaker to the check valve to wherever the pipe goes back towards the pool. I added photos of the valve before it was replaced, and after. They are both facing in the same way before replacement in which flow goes up.

 

[jmc13]

Hi, What does that diverter valve on the pool return do? One side is 2.5” the other is 2”. What size pipe is going into the check valve by the IFCS?

I know the actuator is for pool and spa mode, so I am going to assume the two pipes for the diverter are going to be the IFCS and the pool returns. Added a close up of the return.

 

[Poolbreh]

I would open that manual diverter to see if the system runs normal. Further isolating the issue with the caretaker. It looks like the jandy check valve may be on the same return as the white check valve, which would be to the spa floor cleaner. Those white check valves are notorious for having a flap that breaks off in the line. But it’s hard to be certain because everything is underground. If opening that diverter lowers psi it will give you more time to focus on those check valves and caretaker.

 

[Jimrahbe]

jmc,

I like @Poolbreh idea.. If your system has the ability to shut off the IFCS, that is what I would try first.

My idea about the check valves had more to do with you said the system quit working after they were replaced. Removing the flappers would let you know for sure if the check valves have anything to do with your problem or not. If not, you can put the flappers back in, if it works with the flappers removed, then at least it gives you a place to start.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[jmc13]

I would open that manual diverter to see if the system runs normal. Further isolating the issue with the caretaker. It looks like the jandy check valve may be on the same return as the white check valve, which would be to the spa floor cleaner. Those white check valves are notorious for having a flap that breaks off in the line. But it’s hard to be certain because everything is underground. If opening that diverter lowers psi it will give you more time to focus on those check valves and caretaker.

Most of my issue is not high PSI, it is lack of flow from the skimmer/MD to the rest of the pool. I can't raise the RPM of the motor because no matter what, flow won't increase from the skimmer to feed the system. This then causes the IFCS check valve to fill with air and blow out the popups in the pool. If I crank up the RPM to about 3000, I then get a higher pressure than normal, but the system seems to have normal pressure other wise. Is this still assumed it is the check valves and not a blockage from the skimmer? Could I be having more than one issue? It just seems coincidental I called a Tech to the house for the spa draining and within a few weeks this flow issue started.

jmc,

I like @Poolbreh idea.. If your system has the ability to shut off the IFCS, that is what I would try first.

My idea about the check valves had more to do with you said the system quit working after they were replaced. Removing the flappers would let you know for sure if the check valves have anything to do with your problem or not. If not, you can put the flappers back in, if it works with the flappers removed, then at least it gives you a place to start.

Thanks,

Jim R.

When I get home tonight I will move the valve and see what it shuts off and if that fixes it and report back.

 

[Poolbreh]

What made me believe it’s a return side issue and not suction side is the psi rising to 38psi on 3450rpms. If it was suction side the psi would most likely be lower than normal. But you can use the fill/drain buttons on the outside panel with the pump on and it will help clarify/isolate issue.

 

[jmc13]

What made me believe it’s a return side issue and not suction side is the psi rising to 38psi on 3450rpms. If it was suction side the psi would most likely be lower than normal. But you can use the fill/drain buttons on the outside panel with the pump on and it will help clarify/isolate issue.

You are mentioning the control panel on the outside of the house....a few days after we closed on the house, we had a power outage. For some reason that fried the outside panel. The only way to change things with the pool is the indoor Aqualink RS all button controller. As things were in short supply and prices skyrocketed, we put upgrading that on hold as other things inside the house came up. Two pool techs came out to check it out, and said the control board is dead. Nothing on the outside panel except the power switch works. Is there another way to check these things?

 

[Jimrahbe]

said the control board is dead.

jmc,

If the control board was dead, then your remote would not be able to control anything.. Odd???

Jim R.

 

[Poolbreh]

Hmmm maybe it’s the keypad that’s bad if the indoor is still working. So we know the spa intake and return are good. Problem is either pool intake or return.

Flip the intake actuator toggle so valve turns 180 degrees spa(drain). Monitor pump and psi…flip toggle back.

Flip the return actuator toggle so valve turns 180 degrees spa(fill)(spillway).
Monitor pump and psi…flip toggle back.

If it runs fine on drain mode, it’s most likely Pool intake problem.
If it runs fine in fill mode it’s most likely pool return problem.
And vice versa.

 

[jmc13]

Hmmm maybe it’s the keypad that’s bad if the indoor is still working. So we know the spa intake and return are good. Problem is either pool intake or return.

Flip the intake actuator toggle so valve turns 180 degrees spa(drain). Monitor pump and psi…flip toggle back.

Flip the return actuator toggle so valve turns 180 degrees spa(fill)(spillway).
Monitor pump and psi…flip toggle back.

If it runs fine on drain mode, it’s most likely Pool intake problem.
If it runs fine in fill mode it’s most likely pool return problem.
And vice versa.

I was told I would need the board/button to the panel. I was informed it's cheaper to get the Aqualink upgrade kit and go App, which was going for $900 2.0 version, and now for $1200 for 3.0 version. Is this true, or is there a cheaper part we would need?

The actuators still work though, my indoor remote has a button that says spa mode. That moves the intake and return valves to the spa pipes. In filter pump mode with Spa off, It's the 180 degree opposite. Are you just wanting me to flip one and then the other? I didn't know you could manually move the actuator valves. Im always worried I am going to break something.


Before I saw your directions I went out to see about shutting off the IFCS from the previous post. Turned the pump on and turned the manual return valve 180 degrees (attached photo). It shut off the IFCS and went to pool returns. Immediately the flow went to normal in the skimmer, and for the first time the main drain seems to have more power than normal. I cranked it up to 2800 and it was 100% normal after a few bubbles blew out the returns.


Funny the IFCS can be turned off. The tech that came to change the valves mentioned I should get a robot and then mentioned I couldn't bc the IFCS couldn't be shut off and the popups would get in the way. I probably should have asked the home warranty for a new company as he didn't seem to know what he was doing. Seems I'm learning more with TFP.


So we know that spa mode works, and pool with returns only. How do I narrow down what is going on with the return/IFCS?

 

[Poolbreh]

If the manual valve(pool return) (ifcs bypass)fixed the issue. I wouldn’t mess with the actuators. Most likely that white check valve flap broke off and is obstructing the return. You can replumb the manifold and inspect caretaker or you can leave it bypassed. Although you will probably need to calibrate the return actuator because the spa bypass is on pool return diverting before caretaker. I couldn’t advise on fixing caretaker if broken or pricing on jandy rs upgrade. But the robot cleaners have a great reputation on tfp and I think if you went that route it would outperform the caretakers in cleanliness and energy consumption.

 

[jmc13]

If the manual valve(pool return) (ifcs bypass)fixed the issue. I wouldn’t mess with the actuators. Most likely that white check valve flap broke off and is obstructing the return. You can replumb the manifold and inspect caretaker or you can leave it bypassed. Although you will probably need to calibrate the return actuator because the spa bypass is on pool return diverting before caretaker. I couldn’t advise on fixing caretaker if broken or pricing on jandy rs upgrade. But the robot cleaners have a great reputation on tfp and I think if you went that route it would outperform the caretakers in cleanliness and energy consumption.

I will check tonight if the check valve for the IFCS is broken. They looked perfectly fine before, just in case I ordered the OEM check valve as you don't give much confidence in them anyways. They should arrive this weekend. If I check the valve and it is okay, do I still assume I need to check the caretaker? When you say replumb, I am assuming because the Caretaker and piping do not look like they come apart, that replumbing would be required regardless of a broken piece of valve check?

 

[Poolbreh]

I have confidence in the jandy check valves, if they are facing the right direction. It’s the white check valve in the manifold that I don’t have confidence in. I believe the white check valve failed early on and instead of replacing it on the manifold they added that loop with the jandy check valve. The caretaker should have a screen you can check. You said the psi on the caretaker was also higher, so I believe the issue is within the caretaker. Most of this is speculation. You really wouldn’t know until it’s open and hopefully it’s something obvious. Last resort would be to replumb manifold in the belief that flap broke off in line.