I submitted a permit application nearly two weeks ago for the installation of a 27' round AGP. At the time I was told to expect a two week wait. Apparently everyone and their brother is getting a pool. Anyway, I spoke with the Township (in Montgomery Cty, PA) Permits office today and learned that my application may be denied because the total impervious ground cover on my property is already above the maximum allowed which is 10%. That is, the total area of the house, garage, driveway, patio, etc. is 18% of the total area of the property. So, I won't be allowed an AGP even though the lot is 1/2 acre and the total impervious ground cover amounts to just over 3,700 SQFT and I've got nearly 16,700 SQFT of grass cover. Anyone hear of such a thing? Do I have a way around this ordinance?
local ordinance: percent impervious ground cover
- Thread starter 27ftAGPnPA
- Start date
- Jul 21, 2013
- 53,100
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Welcome to TFP.
Yes, impervious zoning regulations are annoying but legal. They can restrict expansion of decks or pools. 10% seems restrictive. Your house was probably grandfathered with a larger footprint before the 10% went into effect. You can talk to a local land use attorney to see if there are any ways around it.
Yes, impervious zoning regulations are annoying but legal. They can restrict expansion of decks or pools. 10% seems restrictive. Your house was probably grandfathered with a larger footprint before the 10% went into effect. You can talk to a local land use attorney to see if there are any ways around it.
Thanks for the feedback. The properties and houses in my neighborhood were built in the mid 60s. I've been in my home for just a few years. A few have in-ground pools. And a few more have above-ground pools.
Someone from the Permits office is coming by next Monday to assess the situation.
I would never ever recommend that someone did something without the proper permits. Millions of people don't care what i recommend. You did actually try so there's that.
Here are some random facts for no reason whatsoever :
Code enforcement is not allowed on your property without permission.
Make friends with your neighbors because they can go on their property and look into yours.
A 5ft tall pool cannot be seen from the street if its behind a 6ft tall fence.
Some towns experimented with drones to catch people and were shot down in the courts for illegally searching without a warrant.
Here are some random facts for no reason whatsoever :
Code enforcement is not allowed on your property without permission.
Make friends with your neighbors because they can go on their property and look into yours.
A 5ft tall pool cannot be seen from the street if its behind a 6ft tall fence.
Some towns experimented with drones to catch people and were shot down in the courts for illegally searching without a warrant.
Pervious Surfaces
Decks with grass or dirt underneath (the water will seep through the cracks in the deck and reach the ground)
Landscape Fabric (woven or mesh type - not impermeable plastic)
Large stones (depending on percentage of area taken up)
Mulch
Pool surface area with pervious cover that allows water to seep through (does not include sidewalk around pool)
Impervious Surfaces | South Middleton Township, PA
Find out more about impervious surfaces, water runoff, and how it may effect the citizens of the South Middleton area.www.smiddleton.com
This reference seems to say that a pool is considered to be a pervious surface. Ask the code enforcement to send you a copy of your local code that states the percentage limits and what is and is not considered pervious.
What zoning are you in? I did a little snooping around the codes for you and I'm not seeing anything less than 30% impervious ratio in all residential zoning districts: Township of Montgomery, PA: Zoning
Look up what zoning you're in. Read the codes for that zoning. If not finding 10%, take the code listing impervious ratio for your zoning to the permit department and ask them to explain why they are saying 10% if the code says 30%. And if that all doesn't work out, ask a real estate lawyer for advise.
Look up what zoning you're in. Read the codes for that zoning. If not finding 10%, take the code listing impervious ratio for your zoning to the permit department and ask them to explain why they are saying 10% if the code says 30%. And if that all doesn't work out, ask a real estate lawyer for advise.
Thanks for all the responses. I did some digging myself. Found the township codes and ordinances at Township of Lower Pottsgrove, PA Code. Looking at General Provisions (Ch 1), Regional Planning (Ch 56), Building Construction (Ch 100), Floodplain Management (Ch 138), Stormwater Management (Ch 203) and Subdivision and Land Development (Ch 215) I could find no reference to 10% impervious surface limit. But I did find references to Best Management Practices (BMP). So I suspect the 10% limit is an engineer's idea of what's best. Problem is the total impervious surface on my property is already at 18%. And the addition of the garage, sun room and back patio were approved by the township. The addition of the pool would bring the number to 21%.
My research also helped me understand the two issues at play; 1) storm water runoff and flooding and 2) recharge of the watershed. For the former, I'm ready to argue that a pool collects rain water and so does not contribute to storm water runoff. For the latter, I'm ready to argue that my sand filter will need to be backflushed and rinsed weekly and so does not lead to starving the watershed.
Wish me luck.
My research also helped me understand the two issues at play; 1) storm water runoff and flooding and 2) recharge of the watershed. For the former, I'm ready to argue that a pool collects rain water and so does not contribute to storm water runoff. For the latter, I'm ready to argue that my sand filter will need to be backflushed and rinsed weekly and so does not lead to starving the watershed.
Wish me luck.
The reference that I linked to says that a pool is considered to be a pervious surface. Here are some more references.
So, it’s likely that your local code addresses whether or not a swimming pool is considered to be pervious or impervious.
Impervious cover does not include sidewalks or easements in the public right-of-way, water features such as ponds, pools, fountains, and non-compacted areas with gravel used only by pedestrians.
Impervious Cover | City of Austin Residential Permitting
The City of Austin’s Residential Permitting Resourcepermittingatx.com
So, it’s likely that your local code addresses whether or not a swimming pool is considered to be pervious or impervious.
I hope I’m wrong. But the above research refers to the ‘water area’ of the pool being pervious. (Awesome find BTW, your skills are unmatched as usual).
I think they will consider the bottom of the liner which touches the soil to be impervious because it stops all (pool and rain) water from passing through to the soil.
Update: A careful read of the zoning codes that apply to my property led me to discover that I was up against an illegal interpretation. The code uses the language "building coverage" not "impervious surface." And it defines "building coverage" to mean the area covered by buildings. I explained that the township calculated 18% by including two patios and a driveway. So I petitioned the township to consider a legal interpretation where the total area covered by the buildings on my property is exactly 10%. The township manager said he needed to consult the solicitor. A few days later I heard back that my permit was approved.
Lesson learned: It pays to do the research and stand up for what is right.
Lesson learned: It pays to do the research and stand up for what is right.
sktn77a
Gold Supporter
I deal with this almost every build. The pool is pervious it does not count. Its walkways, house, anything with a roof, etc. We get nailed on huge decks everyone wants 1000+ sqft of pavers and walkways. 25% around here mostly. Glad you got it worked out. We get variances often it's a pain but pretty easy to do amd plead the case in front of zoning board.
Congrats....
......and oh by the way, if you're backwashing your filter weekly as you were going to tell them, you're doing it way too much! Welcome to TFP! We'll teach you how to care for that filter and pool as soon as you get it!
Maddie
......and oh by the way, if you're backwashing your filter weekly as you were going to tell them, you're doing it way too much! Welcome to TFP! We'll teach you how to care for that filter and pool as soon as you get it!
Maddie
actually the reason why google maps is free to use is the satellite imagery is fed into a computer and compared to googles previous year satellite flyover. That program identifies any differences (home addition, new car port, pool, etc) and that data is sold to the county asessors office. When they find an address on the list with no permit application, they send out inspectors to verify. Then is penalties and permit fees for the city. Big brother is watching you...
In my area an in ground pool doesnt count as impervious cover except the coping. Im guessing this is reasonably common. You are still way over. There are pervious concrete surfaces that some towns will not count as impervious cover since they let water drain through. In my area, deck counts as 50%. You might be able to tear out your driveway and patio to get enough back. Pavers didnt count for impervious cover at all so we installed 4x4 pavers separated by around 6 inches. They made a great patio, but were expensive
Also in my area you can get a variance but the city council has to vote on it..
10% seems pretty restrictive. I always thought ours was bad at 45%
One way around it is this. In my area impervious cover is often baked into the plats using the rules at the time (setbacks are often defined in the plats. The builders essentially negotiate with the city and lock in those numbers. If your impervious cover limits are written into the plats and the city impervious cover got more restrictive over time, it is possible that your plat takes precedence. Of course this becomes a legal battle...
Yes. A limit of 10% impervious coverage was what the Township claimed was the zoning code. A closer look revealed the limit applies to building coverage. From that, correct interpretation of the code, I'm at exactly 10%.
A big part of the watershed in this area is Schuylkill River. And the Limerick nuclear power plant is on the river in the next township. Could the local zoning codes be designed to offset for the vast quantity of river water that goes up in steam, i.e. limit impervious coverage to enhance watershed recharge?