Do you actually use less bleach with the liquidator or is the usage the same? I just pour bleach in front of my jets each night.
Liquidator question
- Thread starter jinnbaker1
- Start date
In theory, by maintaining a consitant FC level, you would use less as you'd be able to maintain a lower FC. But I don't know how this really translates to real life.
I have been debating about getting one all summer. I just didn't know if it was worth fighting the battle of the white stuff.
Rabbit
0
- Jul 12, 2008
- 74
jinnbaker1 said:
I'm pretty close now to having all my lines, valves and such all 3/8 inch instead of the 1/4 inch ID that comes with the unit. This should greatly improve the White stuff situation as the passageways are not so tiny. I was kind of regretting mine for a few days, but now I love it. I've not had to add any chlorine directly to my pool in over a week. If I get lazy, drunk, tired, out of town..etc at least I know my pool has some chlorine in it
I just can't stand those hockey pucks in my pool while I'm away.
Edit: To answer the original question, so far I'm using less bleach. Also I'm not going from close to zero FC to 8 or 9 each night. The constant flow during the day appears to really be working well. I can come home 3 hours after my pump has shut off to still find an acceptable level of FC.
I use less. It keeps the FC at a stable level rather than fluctuating. I have no WS so far but I keep my pH low (~7.2 to 7.5)
What did you change? You used to have WS as you mentioned in this post.cruzmisl said:
Other than pH, what are your numbers? Borates?
I noticed some snow flakes in the black funnel the other day. Is this the WS which some talk about? My PH has climbed above my normal level of 7.2 to around 7.6. Only real differance besides the PH is that my CH climbed from 350 -400 due to fill water. With the lack of rain down here, the fill water contains more junk during this time then other times of the year when rains are more common. I used an old fish tank net to scoop it out. It feels and tastes like salt.
I hooked my LQ up last night and used the lines and most hardware that came with it except for the saddle clamps. (I went and got 1/4" threaded barb fittings, one for the heater manifold drain, the other for the strainer basket drain, and 2 more for the flowmeter as they leaked air with the black fittings that came with it in each end).
To also answer your question: I set the LQ at the recommended 3 on the flow meter and checked the FC level when I started it up, it was at 6.5ppm FC before it ran all night. I then checked the FC this morning, and it was up to 13. So it looks like I will just have to dial it down till it just trickles out. Which in turn seems like I will use less chlorine. (Before the LQ I was adding 1 qt of chlorine to the water each night as I only lost 1.5ppm in a 24 hr period.)
Before adding Borates I was adding 96oz of 6% bleach everyday. So I have Borates and that seemed to also make it so that my chlorine usage dropped because of them. Before Borates added 96oz of chlorine everynight, after adding Borates went down to adding only 1qt of chlorine everynight, the bather load and sun on the pool were pretty much the same everyday before and after my little test with the Borates.
I added the Borates just because others that posted their numbers, and the problems with the white stuff, in my eyes seemed to have only the Borates in common but that is just my little experiment that I am doing.
Im sure that if the LQ ia used according to the chemistry (changing it to accomodate the LQ so you dont get the WS) in your pool that you wont have any problems. I think alot of it has to do too with the flow that you end up getting, mine has a good flow as you can see from the LQ adding 6.5 ppm more to my pool overnight. Others had to modify theirs to get and acceptable level. You just have to hook it up and see what works best for you, every pool is different is my take on the LQ and it works differently for everyone.
FWIW this in my little experiment with adding the Borates and the LQ, so take what is said above with a grain of salt. I will keep a close eye on mine and post later what I came up with the LQ/Borates experiment.
Hope this hepls
Brian
To also answer your question: I set the LQ at the recommended 3 on the flow meter and checked the FC level when I started it up, it was at 6.5ppm FC before it ran all night. I then checked the FC this morning, and it was up to 13. So it looks like I will just have to dial it down till it just trickles out. Which in turn seems like I will use less chlorine. (Before the LQ I was adding 1 qt of chlorine to the water each night as I only lost 1.5ppm in a 24 hr period.)
Before adding Borates I was adding 96oz of 6% bleach everyday. So I have Borates and that seemed to also make it so that my chlorine usage dropped because of them. Before Borates added 96oz of chlorine everynight, after adding Borates went down to adding only 1qt of chlorine everynight, the bather load and sun on the pool were pretty much the same everyday before and after my little test with the Borates.
I added the Borates just because others that posted their numbers, and the problems with the white stuff, in my eyes seemed to have only the Borates in common but that is just my little experiment that I am doing.
Im sure that if the LQ ia used according to the chemistry (changing it to accomodate the LQ so you dont get the WS) in your pool that you wont have any problems. I think alot of it has to do too with the flow that you end up getting, mine has a good flow as you can see from the LQ adding 6.5 ppm more to my pool overnight. Others had to modify theirs to get and acceptable level. You just have to hook it up and see what works best for you, every pool is different is my take on the LQ and it works differently for everyone.
FWIW this in my little experiment with adding the Borates and the LQ, so take what is said above with a grain of salt. I will keep a close eye on mine and post later what I came up with the LQ/Borates experiment.
Hope this hepls
Brian
Almost everyone, I presume, has these white stuff floating on the top, but this isn't THE WS. You have WS if your outflow line is no longer transparent because it's full of WS and your flow meter is filled up with milky water instead of clear water.Sabot said:
Do you need a pic?
Yes please. Please take pictures of the inside of your tank too.
I have been assuming your "WS" has been in the tank of the LQ and it affects the preformance of your LQ by accumulation of "WS" on the plastic outlet valve and the flow indicator down stream of the LQ.
The "WS" in your tubing is not the "WS" that we have been talking about in the tank. Some believe it's scale and I still believe it's salt. The "WS" in the tubing comes from using the stock vinyl tubing which the chlorine will break down. You will need to replace it with tubing which will handle the chlorine. You can clean out the tubing to a degree with some diluted Muriatic acid or replace it as you see fit with the exact same tubing which you can find at Home Depot. The vinyl tubing is really cheap in price and quality. Just to be sure we are talking about the same "WS" stuff, pictures would aid in the discussion.
I have been assuming your "WS" has been in the tank of the LQ and it affects the preformance of your LQ by accumulation of "WS" on the plastic outlet valve and the flow indicator down stream of the LQ.
The "WS" in your tubing is not the "WS" that we have been talking about in the tank. Some believe it's scale and I still believe it's salt. The "WS" in the tubing comes from using the stock vinyl tubing which the chlorine will break down. You will need to replace it with tubing which will handle the chlorine. You can clean out the tubing to a degree with some diluted Muriatic acid or replace it as you see fit with the exact same tubing which you can find at Home Depot. The vinyl tubing is really cheap in price and quality. Just to be sure we are talking about the same "WS" stuff, pictures would aid in the discussion.
To clarify, the WS that interfers with my LQ operation forms as a crystalline substance on the float valves......specifically right around the moving valve mechanism itself. This WS interfers with operation of the outflow valve by accumulating in areas with very little clearance causing the valve to stick.....normally in the open position.
This WS is VERY easily removed (15 seconds in muriatic) and the operation of the valve returns to normal once the WS has been removed.
Logic would seem to indicate it's calcium precipitating from the pool water. It doesn't seem to me it would be salt because the salt is in much higher concentration in the bleach and would become a lot more diluted as the pool water passes over it. On the other hand, conditions inside the LQ would seem to be perfect for calcium scaling and, in fact, would be almost unavoidable.
Would muriatic so quickly remove the WS if it was salt? I don't know.
This WS is VERY easily removed (15 seconds in muriatic) and the operation of the valve returns to normal once the WS has been removed.
Logic would seem to indicate it's calcium precipitating from the pool water. It doesn't seem to me it would be salt because the salt is in much higher concentration in the bleach and would become a lot more diluted as the pool water passes over it. On the other hand, conditions inside the LQ would seem to be perfect for calcium scaling and, in fact, would be almost unavoidable.
Would muriatic so quickly remove the WS if it was salt? I don't know.
Sabot said:
It seems, Sabot, that you missed my previous posts on the topic or you had forgotten what I posted, so let me summarize my experience so far, along with pics.
1. I installed my LQ about six weeks ago with the original vinyl tubing. Within a few days the outlet side of the tubing started to have white deposits. The flow meter was still clear.
2. After about a week I changed the outlet tubing to Tygon Ultra Chemical Resistant 2075 which is supposed to be bleach resistant.
3. After a couple of weeks of use the tubing became full with WS and so was the
flow meter. (see pics). Also, there are white deposits on the hinges of the "out" flow valve, as duraleigh posted.
4.Despite all this WS, I have had no flow problems or any LQ performance issues so far. The only issues I had were non-WS related and they were taken care of (Hayward saddle fitting and including the check valve in the "In" line.)
5. WS "floaters" (see pic of black filter) come at early stage but they are not an issue.
As to your situation - did you check if your well water contain magnesium?
Flow meter and tygon tubing filled with WS
Out float valve
WS on top of funnel water
Thanks for the pictures!
Wow! That is some serious creame that you have flowing there!
What is interesting to me is that your water in your LQ tank is normal. Deposit seems to start at the outlet and work its way up the valve assembly. I am not seeing any deposits forming on the feed tube.
When the water from your tank moves into the outtake, the deposit forms. Do you have any deposit on your intake? (Can you snap a picture of the inlet?) Have you disconnected the hose before the pump and see if the water is cream in color when it comes out the hose? (This can be done when the pump is off and before the drain down)
Why are there deposits on the valve assembly and not on various parts of the feed tube? Does it take circulation to form the deposit on the valve assemble? Why would the deposit not form on the area in the tank that is stagnate such as the tubing or the side walls of the tank? Or even on the float for the valve assembly?
But when it enters your tubing it turns into cream. I never saw anything like this before on mine, even before changing to Tygon tubing. I would love to hear from the experts on what is happening in the tubing that will cause the fluid to change so drastically. With the vinyl tubing, did the water clarity the same going through the flow indicator?
If you disconnect the tubing at the outlet at the LQ tank, does the water flow out of the LQ tank clear or the cream color? If it’s clear, then there is a reaction going on in your tubing. I would recommend replacing it to another type of tubing (R3400 Tygon or similar chem. Tubing)
Could you please take a few more pictures of your equipment pad, tubings and zoom out view of the inside of your LQ?
Wow! That is some serious creame that you have flowing there!
What is interesting to me is that your water in your LQ tank is normal. Deposit seems to start at the outlet and work its way up the valve assembly. I am not seeing any deposits forming on the feed tube.
When the water from your tank moves into the outtake, the deposit forms. Do you have any deposit on your intake? (Can you snap a picture of the inlet?) Have you disconnected the hose before the pump and see if the water is cream in color when it comes out the hose? (This can be done when the pump is off and before the drain down)
Why are there deposits on the valve assembly and not on various parts of the feed tube? Does it take circulation to form the deposit on the valve assemble? Why would the deposit not form on the area in the tank that is stagnate such as the tubing or the side walls of the tank? Or even on the float for the valve assembly?
But when it enters your tubing it turns into cream. I never saw anything like this before on mine, even before changing to Tygon tubing. I would love to hear from the experts on what is happening in the tubing that will cause the fluid to change so drastically. With the vinyl tubing, did the water clarity the same going through the flow indicator?
If you disconnect the tubing at the outlet at the LQ tank, does the water flow out of the LQ tank clear or the cream color? If it’s clear, then there is a reaction going on in your tubing. I would recommend replacing it to another type of tubing (R3400 Tygon or similar chem. Tubing)
Could you please take a few more pictures of your equipment pad, tubings and zoom out view of the inside of your LQ?
**** My response starts in your "quote" and continues under.
Your questions in blue my answers in bold red
It seems that you missed reading some important WS threads, apparently because
you've never had it
So here's what's known now, as I understand it.
The WS is a deposit of calcium carbonate coming from a supersaturated solution of CC.
Not all the factors controlling the mechanism are known. Some of them are thermodynamic in nature and some of them are kinetic. What's the difference?
Thermodynamics can tell you what may happen and what may not happen, but it can't tell you if indeed it's gonna happen NOW under the current conditions.
For example, if you mix hydrogen and oxygen in a container, according to thermo they should react to form water with a big bang. But they don't. This is where kinetics comes to play. In order for them to react they need a spark or a catalytic surface.
The thermo part of CC deposits can be deduced from the SI analysis. Chem geek in this post (and others in that thread) gave an excellent review and calculations.
The bottom line is: The higher the pH, the higher the TA and the higher the CH,
the more likely we are to get CC deposition.
Since the upper level in the LQ is enriched not only by FC but also by hydroxyl ions (pH higher than 8 ) lowering this pH by borates may help.
Now comes the kinetic part. Supersaturated solutions form when the solute has reached its maximum solubility limit but it hasn't deposited yet because of kinetic reasons. It needs "seeding". As an example, sometimes you can cause this seeding by scratching with a glass rod the wall of a glass container filled with the solution.
I did something similar with solution taken from the top of the LQ. Some precipitation occurred, although it was very little.
We see WS only on the flow line because for some reasons related to the combination of solid/liquid interface and flow, the conditions favor seeding. Moreover, this is a slow process. Little WS is formed all the time, but it accumulates in the line.
I hope it helped. Now we need YOU to tell us what is different in your system!
Your questions in blue my answers in bold red
Sabot said:Thanks for the pictures!
Wow! That is some serious creame that you have flowing there!
What is interesting to me is that your water in your LQ tank is normal. Deposit seems to start at the outlet and work its way up the valve assembly.
I am not seeing any deposits forming on the feed tube.
You're right. Deposits are ONLY on the "out" line, starting from the "out" float valve and down stream all the way to the pump.
When the water from your tank moves into the outtake, the deposit forms. Do you have any deposit on your intake? (Can you snap a picture of the inlet?)
None whatsoever, as mentioned.
Have you disconnected the hose before the pump and see if the water is cream in color when it comes out the hose? (This can be done when the pump is off and before the drain down)
I didn't need to. There's some limited transparency left in the "out" line. When I squeeze the Tygon tubing I see that the water running through it is a thick suspension of WS. The WS is definitely not limited to the tubing wall.
Why are there deposits on the valve assembly and not on various parts of the feed tube? Does it take circulation to form the deposit on the valve assemble? Why would the deposit not form on the area in the tank that is stagnate such as the tubing or the side walls of the tank? Or even on the float for the valve assembly?
I'll answer to that in the discussion part below
With the vinyl tubing, did the water clarity the same going through the flow indicator?
I had the vinyl tubing for just a week or so. The WS didn't form on the flow meter yet. After I switched to Tygon, it took some time, more than a week, for the WS to accumulate and fill up the FM.
If you disconnect the tubing at the outlet at the LQ tank, does the water flow out of the LQ tank clear or the cream color? If it’s clear, then there is a reaction going on in your tubing.
It would be clear. See discussion below.
I would recommend replacing it to another type of tubing (R3400 Tygon or similar chem. Tubing)
Could you please take a few more pictures of your equipment pad, tubings and zoom out view of the inside of your LQ?
It seems that you missed reading some important WS threads, apparently because
you've never had it
So here's what's known now, as I understand it.
The WS is a deposit of calcium carbonate coming from a supersaturated solution of CC.
Not all the factors controlling the mechanism are known. Some of them are thermodynamic in nature and some of them are kinetic. What's the difference?
Thermodynamics can tell you what may happen and what may not happen, but it can't tell you if indeed it's gonna happen NOW under the current conditions.
For example, if you mix hydrogen and oxygen in a container, according to thermo they should react to form water with a big bang. But they don't. This is where kinetics comes to play. In order for them to react they need a spark or a catalytic surface.
The thermo part of CC deposits can be deduced from the SI analysis. Chem geek in this post (and others in that thread) gave an excellent review and calculations.
The bottom line is: The higher the pH, the higher the TA and the higher the CH,
the more likely we are to get CC deposition.
Since the upper level in the LQ is enriched not only by FC but also by hydroxyl ions (pH higher than 8 ) lowering this pH by borates may help.
Now comes the kinetic part. Supersaturated solutions form when the solute has reached its maximum solubility limit but it hasn't deposited yet because of kinetic reasons. It needs "seeding". As an example, sometimes you can cause this seeding by scratching with a glass rod the wall of a glass container filled with the solution.
I did something similar with solution taken from the top of the LQ. Some precipitation occurred, although it was very little.
We see WS only on the flow line because for some reasons related to the combination of solid/liquid interface and flow, the conditions favor seeding. Moreover, this is a slow process. Little WS is formed all the time, but it accumulates in the line.
I hope it helped. Now we need YOU to tell us what is different in your system!
I have read most, you guys are getting a little too complex for me. My eyes glaze over when Chemgeek get's talking.
I have a lot of CA in my pool. Last reading was around 400. I keep my PH low 7.2 is my goal but with using the pH Adjuster I am able to keep a near constant pH level. My FC peaks around 5ppm for a day after filling up the LQ and drops until the next refill. I keep my TA on the low side. I have posted many pictures of my system, so you can review those.
Sorry I can't help more.
I have a lot of CA in my pool. Last reading was around 400. I keep my PH low 7.2 is my goal but with using the pH Adjuster I am able to keep a near constant pH level. My FC peaks around 5ppm for a day after filling up the LQ and drops until the next refill. I keep my TA on the low side. I have posted many pictures of my system, so you can review those.
Sorry I can't help more.
I have been running my LQ since early June and have no WS similar to the pictures above. I do have some crystals on the bottom of the tank which I assume is the salt the manual talks about cleaning out when it is a few inches thick. Wish I had more to add as to why I don't have WS, but I dont...
I have noticed that I get some dirt in the lines from time to time which sometimes clogs the purple float / valve, but a little shot from the compressor cleans it right out.
I have noticed that I get some dirt in the lines from time to time which sometimes clogs the purple float / valve, but a little shot from the compressor cleans it right out.
pooltime said:
Please post all your numbers, including borates, if applicable, and % bleach.
Also , tap water or well water? This may help.
pooltime said:
Well water! Both you and Sabot have well water and no WS!
I wonder if this is relevant. Maybe yes.
What's your Calcium Hardness?
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