Let’s talk about BORATES!!

[thefloatqueen]

The season is mostly over and you'll lose a chunk over the winter with draining to close.

Makes sense. Sometimes in the morning, I get random ideas after I take my ADD meds. Hahaha! Probably is a good idea to wait until spring so I can enjoy the sparkle and other benefits all summer long! Even though my water already sparkles, I want more! Haha! I thought it might help with my pH issues in the meantime and maybe provide some algaecide properties over the winter since I don’t use Polyquat. I close late and open early.

 

[Mdragger88]

The addition of borates to enhance water "feel" and sparkle went through a "hot" phase on TFP probably fiveor six years ago. There was quite a lot of debate over it's value as some saw improvement but many saw no change.

That debate lasted for some time and the addition of borates persisted for a good while. Over the years, it has faded away. Conclusively, it caused no harm but was ultimately inconclusive as to the benefit received,

I never tried it as, for me, my pool was always "wet" enough and "sparkly" enough. My skepticism towards things prevailed.

There seems to be renewed interest here on the forum so let's see what the current thinking is.

I am in the “I could take em or leave em camp” for the most part.
I have went without replenishing it in my pool & noticed no difference in ph rise. I concluded that with my fill ta only being 110 & the fact that I don’t top off a ton that adjusting my pool’s ta to 60 is doing the brunt of the work in my vinyl lined pool. I have a swg so the feel i have likely comes more from the salt . I haven’t noticed any difference in “sparkle” with or without borates.
In my spa I generally add 50ppm borates upon each refill after lowering ta to 50-60 - it’s helpful effects are more obvious there due to the constant aeration although lowering the ta is still responsible for most of the help. When going without borates the ph doesn’t stay quite as stable in the spa for me so I use them when possible.
Borates are definitely not a magic solution but can be a helpful additional step to take for those who have multiple other conditions working against them such as high ta & ph fill water, a plaster surface, water features, & who struggle with frequent ph rise along with keeping their csi in check to protect their surfaces & swg after they have done all they can do to get those things in line otherwise.
It’s truly a case by case thing in my opinion as to who may benefit enough to worry with adding them since their presence adds more complexness to something we are ultimately trying to keep simple

 

[ajw22]

Why’s that?

Because this late in the season you will see little benefits to adding it.

And you will lose a bunch of borates through the closing draining and winter dilution.

So next spring you will be starting with an unknown amount of borates and likely need to add more.

Might as well just wait and get it set next spring.

My opinion is borates is not the magic potion it is described to be, stabilizing pH and TA, making water silky and sparkling, and there is more - it’s an algaecide too! I think there is a lot of ownership bias in peoples evaluations as they went through time and expense to add it and then look to justify it.

If you have a TFP clear salt pool you are 90+% there already.

Yes, I tried borates a few years ago. I then let the borate level drift down over a few seasons of closing. Really I saw no difference other then I did not like the increased amounts of acid required to make pH adjustments with borates.

BTW, testing borates levels are more squishy then the CYA test. You are really guessing what level you have in the water, not that it really matters.

 

[thefloatqueen]

Because this late in the season you will see little benefits to adding it.

And you will lose a bunch of borates through the closing draining and winter dilution.

So next spring you will be starting with an unknown amount of borates and likely need to add more.

Might as well just wait and get it set next spring.

My opinion is borates is not the magic potion it is described to be, stabilizing pH and TA, making water silky and sparkling, and there is more - it’s an algaecide too! I think there is a lot of ownership bias in peoples evaluations as they went through time and expense to add it and then look to justify it.

If you have a TFP clear salt pool you are 90+% there already.

Yes, I tried borates a few years ago. I then let the borate level drift down over a few seasons of closing. Really I saw no difference other then I did not like the increased amounts of acid required to make pH adjustments with borates.

BTW, testing borates levels are more squishy then the CYA test. You are really guessing what level you have in the water, not that it really matters.

Interesting take! Thank you for the info. Especially since you have firsthand experience with using borates! I do not have a SWG but plan on investing in one next summer. I do have a crystal clear TFP liquid chlorine pool though, if that counts? LOL! I will take your advice and wait until spring to decide whether or not to add borates.

P.S. — I hate the CYA test! lol

 

[Mdragger88]

I just suggested the 15# because anywhere between 30 & 50ppm is sufficient to get the possible benefits (they sell various different quantities)
As mentioned above you will lose some after replacing what u drained for the winter closing so with it being late in the season u may just wanna wait until you refill & get ta lined up again in the spring.

 

[thefloatqueen]

I am in the “I could take em or leave em camp” for the most part.
I have went without replenishing it in my pool & noticed no difference in ph rise. I concluded that with my fill ta only being 110 & the fact that I don’t top off a ton that adjusting my pool’s ta to 60 is doing the brunt of the work in my vinyl lined pool. I have a swg so the feel i have likely comes more from the salt . I haven’t noticed any difference in “sparkle” with or without borates.
In my spa I generally add 50ppm borates upon each refill after lowering ta to 50-60 - it’s helpful effects are more obvious there due to the constant aeration although lowering the ta is still responsible for most of the help. When going without borates the ph doesn’t stay quite as stable in the spa for me so I use them when possible.
Borates are definitely not a magic solution but can be a helpful additional step to take for those who have multiple other conditions working against them such as high ta & ph fill water, a plaster surface, water features, & who struggle with frequent ph rise along with keeping their csi in check to protect their surfaces & swg after they have done all they can do to get those things in line otherwise.
It’s truly a case by case thing in my opinion as to who may benefit enough to worry with adding them since their presence adds more complexness to something we are ultimately trying to keep simple

I could only dream my fill water’s TA was 110. Mine is 300!!!!!! With a pH of over 8.2 lol. It took me 3 weeks to get it from 300 to 70! The rain storm on Friday helped tremendously and gave me lots of free water so no dropping the hose in and screwing up the TA and pH even more lol. My water level is actually sitting higher than it should be just so I won’t have to add fill water due to evaporation for a lil while longer!

 

[ajw22]

Spend your time and money on installing a SWG before you consider the borates.

Much more benefit in the SWG than borates.

 

[Gary Davis]

I know they give a softer water feel and a more “sparkly” appearance, which I find appealing.

I'm like you almost exactly in that I am considering borates but everything I read about them sounds like a marketing advertisement for snake oil in terms of water 'feeling softer" and "looking more sparkly", which is just not measureable as far as I can tell.

Even its effect on algae is sort of like "penicillin" in that it doesn't touch the existing ones because they don't incorporate it into their cell walls.
The only "real" effect I can find consistently proven is the ability to "buffer" the high end of the pH rise over time as carbon dioxide offgasses from the pool.

The borates add a hydroxyl (OH) to buffer the pH top end (much like carbonate alkalinity adds a hydrogen (H) to cap the pH low end).

Nonetheless, I'll keep track of your results as I am interested in what borates can do for me.
Most pool chemicals have a downside, where borates don't seem to have much of a downside if you don't have pets (which I don't).

My main reasons for wanting to add borates are for my pH rise issues, though. Before anyone recommends getting a SWG (for the “silky” water feel), I plan on it in the next year or so —

Seems to me the (low) investment cost of borates vs the (high) starting cost of a SWG is, well, not even close to comparable.
They're two completely different solutions due to the expense alone as far as I can see the pool math.
Especially since the "silky feel" and "sparkle" hasn't been proven scientifically as far as I can figure out yet.

right now it is not in the budget after a hefty AGP installation bill + electrical and everything else. Has anyone added borates and would you recommend? Any advice would be much appreciated! Thanks in advance!

I'll keep track of what you find out as adding borates seems like a decent way to cap the pH rise which happens somewhat due to my water features bubbling out carbon dioxide.