Is this as bad as I think it is? - grout and tile failing on new pool

[deelowe]

Background:

We built this pool less than 4 years ago making sure to choose the best builder in the area. He has 4.9 stars on Google, routinely gets glowing reviews and, as as result, costs more than 2x everyone else. We thought we had made a good decision. The owner was super nice, seemed knowledgeable, and we were thrilled with the design, but what we thought was our dream pool has caused us nothing but headaches. It's been issue after issue. If a piece of equipment isn't failing, I'm having issues with one of the service techs. Literally every few months we have problems. Most have been "minor" (salt cell failed, failed pool light, tech forgot to turn salt cell back on after maintenance turning the pool green and throwing off the chemistry for a month, two automatic valves failed, flow sensor installed in incorrect location, two travertine tiles failed, bubbler has algae and cannot be removed to be cleaned, tech threw chlorine tablets in the yard killing the grass and the dog almost ate it, etc etc). We've had so many issues and one of the techs let it slip one day that I was labeled as a "problem customer." And now this... I'm at a loss...


The Issue:

We noticed efflorescence coming through the grout the first year. The efflorescence predominantly coming through beneath the travertine and small spots between the pebbletec and submerged tile. Other than some slight scale, I do not notice efflorescence along the water line itself. Being new to pool ownership, I asked the pool company about this and they said "just clean it off with muriatic acid" a few times a year. So this is what we've been doing. Since then, we've had travertine crack and come loose twice now. The first was within 2 years of ownership. The second was in the third year. Then we noticed grout coming loose last summer (3rd year of ownership). Again, I had the pool company take a look and said the issue was minor and something that would "need maintenance over time." Fast forward to yesterday and it seems the tile has pulled away from the sides of the pool in some spots and it sounds hollow when I tap on it.

Next Steps?

I'm not sure what to do as I feel the pool company is giving me bad advice. Can someone help me understand what's going on and how this should be fixed? Looking for some advice here before I speak to the pool company, who I'm sure is just going to be over the moon that I'm calling again. See below for some pictures of the issues we're having. Also, here's a YouTube video with more context.

 

[ajw22]

Please post your pictures on the forum. It makes it easier to review them and discuss them. And your videos on YouTube, marked PUBLIC, and post a link to it.

It does not look like your pool has a good expansion joint between the coping and deck. This could cause much of the grout cracking and loose tiles. Read Expansion Joints and Coping - Further Reading

The loose tiles need to be removed and the bond beam examined for cracking. The tiles can be reset in thinset and regrouted.

You have lots of cracks around the deck and coping that are letting water into the pool shell which then comes out as Efflorescence - Further Reading

Show me pictures looking down at your deck and coping.

 

[deelowe]

Please post your pictures on the forum. It makes it easier to review them and discuss them. And your videos on YouTube, marked PUBLIC, and post a link to it.

Sure thing. Done.

It does not look like your pool has a good expansion joint between the coping and deck. This could cause much of the grout cracking and loose tiles. Read Expansion Joints and Coping - Further Reading

This was my concern as well. Is this fixable? What's the proper procedure to fix it?

The loose tiles need to be removed and the bond beam examined for cracking. The tiles can be reset in thinset and regrouted.

I assumed as much.

You have lots of cracks around the deck and coping that are letting water into the pool shell which then comes out as Efflorescence - Further Reading

Sigh... Thank you for confirming.

Show me pictures looking down at your deck and coping.

Done.

 

[Bperry]

Sure thing. Done.



This was my concern as well. Is this fixable? What's the proper procedure to fix it?



I assumed as much.



Sigh... Thank you for confirming.



Done.

If your pool is largely rectangular shaped, they can use a concrete saw to cut a correct expansion joint and then put backer rod and flexible sealant in it. kind of hard to cut curved areas with a saw though.

 

[deelowe]

If your pool is largely rectangular shaped, they can use a concrete saw to cut a correct expansion joint and then put backer rod and flexible sealant in it. kind of hard to cut curved areas with a saw though.

No curves, thankfully. Would this go between the travertine and cool deck? What about between the ceramic tile and travertine (the tile in the pool at the waterline)?

 

[ajw22]

Your expansion joint should run along the red line.

The unknown is the thickness of your bond beam and if your deck was connected to the pool structure or bond beam by rebar.

The DECK and the POOL need to able to move independently so that ground movement does not put pressure on the pool structure. There needs to be a flexible joint between the two.

The pool coping and the waterline tile should be solid and have no movement if there is nothing pressing on it.

 

[kimkats]

Do you have any pics of the build process?

 

[deelowe]

Do you have any pics of the build process?

Does this help?

 

[ajw22]

Does this help?

Yes, the picture shows us the coping is aligned with the thickness of the bond beam. That would say that if you cut at the coping down to the ground you can install the expansion joint.

The issue is what was done with the rebar that is circled? If it was tied to the deck then that is coupling the two structures together and all the rebar around the coping needs to be cut to allow them to move independently.

 

[deelowe]

Yes, the picture shows us the coping is aligned with the thickness of the bond beam. That would say that if you cut at the coping down to the ground you can install the expansion joint.

Is it? Here's another pic. Looks to me like there's a shelf. Also, the rebar has ground wires attached?

The issue is what was done with the rebar that is circled? If it was tied to the deck then that is coupling the two structures together and all the rebar around the coping needs to be cut to allow them to move independently.

Yes. I had that concern as well after looking at the pic.

Is this expansion joint to narrow? Also, should it be sealed in some way (e.g. self leveling caulk)?

 

[ajw22]

Is it? Here's another pic. Looks to me like there's a shelf.

That lip is a problem if the deck concrete is sitting on it. You will not be able to decouple the structures without cutting back the deck.

The coping should have covered the width of the bond beam.

Is this expansion joint to narrow? Also, should it be sealed in some way (e.g. self leveling caulk)?

Expansion joint can be 3/8" to an inch. It needs to be wide enough to allow some movement without the structures touching.

The expansion joint should be covered with foam backer rod and flexible mastic like Deck-O-Seal.

DECK-O-SEAL - Polysulfide-Based Joint Sealant

Seal all cracks and joints with DECK-O-SEAL two-part, elastomeric, polysulfide-based joint sealant. DECK-O-SEAL is used for caulking and sealing joints subject to concrete movement to provide a firm, flexible, weather-tight seal. It is ideal for sealing joints around swimming pools, and for...

www.deckoseal.com

 

[deelowe]

The coping should have covered the width of the bond beam.

Thanks. The construction looks similar to the image below. Is the issue that the bond beam notch is level with the coping (versus being below it)?

Expansion Joints and Coping - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[ajw22]

Thanks. The construction looks similar to the image below. Is the issue that the bond bean notch is level with the coping (versus being below it)?

Expansion Joints and Coping - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Depends if the company who poured the deck kept a slip joint or gap between the deck edge and the bond beam as shown on the drawing.

 

[deelowe]

Thanks again. Any suggestions for next steps? I do not feel I should have to pay to fix what appears to be installation related. Any way to have a definitive root cause?

 

[ajw22]

I do not feel I should have to pay to fix what appears to be installation related.

That is an argument between you and your Pool Builder. Good luck.

Any way to have a definitive root cause?

You can put this in front of your builder and ask why they did not do it?

Hire an engineer to examine your deck and pool and document the way it was actually constructed compared to industry recommendations.

Minimizing Swimming Pool Structural Problems Due to Concrete Deck Construction - Pool Engineering

Expansion and Contraction in Concrete Construction Most of us in the swimming pool construction industry know that many materials expand and contract with

www.pooleng.com

Mind the Gaps: Perfecting Control and Expansion Joints

Understanding the purpose and importance of control and expansion joints is a basic matter of education, dedication to quality and on-site awareness.

www.aquamagazine.com

 

[deelowe]

Thank you contacting an engineer is a good suggestion. I'll look into that as well.

 

[deelowe]

Pool company agreed to come out and take a look, but stressed this would not be covered under warranty... The owner mentioned on the phone that my issue with the two travertine coping pieces failing were due to my "deck shifting," which I found odd. He didn't provide anymore details. I did ask about the rebar around the bond beam and he said the rebar is cut, there is an expansion joint for the deck, and a foam buffer.

 

[ajw22]

Ask to be shown the foam.

 

[deelowe]

Found a reputable company to come give a second opinion. Their assessment: No water seal behind tile is leading to efflorescence and premature failure. No mastic between tile and use of grout instead is leading to grout failing and water intrusion behind tile. There is essentially no expansion joint between cooldeck and coping and no evidence of a buffer. Also there is no mastic between cooldeck and coping. This is leading to water intrusion between cooldeck and coping cause efflorescence and issues with coping failing. Without fixing this, tiles will likely start falling off this winter. Travertine will continue to fail and bondbeam will fail over time.

Recommendation is to remove all tile and coping. Cut back cooldeck. Add waterproofing to bondbeam. Reinstall tile and coping. Add buffer and mastic between cooldeck and coping. Add mastic between tile and coping.

The total cost is a significant fraction of what we paid to have the pool installed barely over 4 years ago. I'm sort of at a loss at this point. Hoping the original builder will cooperate, but fully expecting he'll try to tell me it can be patched and hope I go away.

 

[Bperry]

. I did ask about the rebar around the bond beam and he said the rebar is cut, there is an expansion joint for the deck, and a foam buffer.

The rebar is what was holding your bonding wire which is required by code. If it was cut, then you may not have a bonded structure anymore.