IntelliFlo Numbers Confusing.

MyAZPool

Gold Supporter
Jul 3, 2018
2,309
Arizona
Pool Size
20500
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Ran across something the other day with my IntelliFlo pump that I can't figure out.

At 700RPM, the pump reports using 35 watts and indicates 0 GPM (well, that's not right coz water is coming out of the returns but whatever). That's not my issue really.

At 600RPM, the pump reports using 46 watts and indicates 27 GPM. WHAT? These two values are going in the wrong direction, but it gets better.

At 500RPM, the pump reports using a whopping 103 watts and indicates 22 GPM. :scratch:.....

Can any of the pump guru's explain why it takes more wattage to run the pump at a lower RPM and why the pump indicates 0 GPM at 700RPM and 27GPM at 600 RPM?

I put in a call to Pentair Tech Support to see if I could get an answer (yea right). They said they would get back with me but haven't so far. I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Thanks much...
r.
 
At very low flow rates I suspect the algorithm used for flow rate and power is not accurate, at all.

A VS pump is typically not efficient at all once below about 1000 rpm.
 
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r.

Are you running in the VS mode and just looking at wattage and RPM, or are you running in the VF mode and looking at wattage and RPM.

Is every reading with the plumbing in the same configuration or are there differences in the water's path between readings?

And... why does it matter?? Is something not working correctly?

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
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At very low flow rates I suspect the algorithm used for flow rate and power is not accurate, at all.

A VS pump is typically not efficient at all once below about 1000 rpm.
@mknauss
Marty... I was thinking it might be something like that. And if Pentair would just tell me that their equations were severely inadequate at those minimal speeds, I could live with that. Just looking for someone who may have some inside info or knowledge on the subject way above mine to give me some insight. It might just come down to "that's the way it is, just accept it". But I hated that when supervisors in the past would give me that same answer. :p "Don't worry about it kid. Works good, lasts a long time". I hated that answer. :laughblue:
Thanks!
r.
 
@Jimrahbe
Jim... Thanks much. Let me see if I can give you some decent answers here....
Are you running in the VS mode and just looking at wattage and RPM, or are you running in the VF mode and looking at wattage and RPM.
Running in VS mode as I was doing some testing on Speeds vs Flow Rates vs wattage. Started at 500 RPM all the way to 3400 RPM.
Comparing the diff between flow rates indicated by the IntelliFlo, Flow Rates using the (flow rate (gpm) = 50*rpm/300 equation and flow rates indicated by the FlowVis. Pretty interesting findings.

Is every reading with the plumbing in the same configuration or are there differences in the water's path between readings?
Yes sir... I wanted to make sure that all things were equal when performing the tests.

And... why does it matter?? Is something not working correctly?

And now the $10,000.00 question..:p

I now need to get on-board with the standard way of setting things up more like everyone else does who are using a robot for cleaning. I don't want to run 1200 RPM 24x7 since I am no longer concerned with higher flow rates to run a suction-side cleaner. Woohoo... Finally.

I know that my minimum speed to run the IntelliChlor is 1000 RPM. So when I run the IntelliChlor, I will be running at 1200 RPM. Fine... But remember, I'm one of those weirdo's who can control my IntelliChlor separetely via a jumpered relay, so I don't need to run it 24x7.

Hence, I want to find the LOWEST and most economical speed I can run when not running the IntelliChlor. That's why those numbers (500rpm and 600rpm), threw me for a loop. My thinking was... How can 500 and 600 rpm be less economical than 700 rpm? When I drop the speeds down below 700 rpm, I can hear the pump speed decrease and I can see water flow slightly decrease, so those numbers (especially the power use numbers), make no sense to me.

Thanks...
r...
 
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1613482909583.png


This shows the operating range for flow control.
 
r.

That makes sense.. in your "weird" way, but why run the the pump at all if you are not making chlorine? What do you gain by running at 500/600 RPM?

No matter, as it is your pool and you should run it however you want.. Just curious.

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
This shows the operating range for flow control.
James...
Thank you.. I know that chart works great for determining TDH. But is it telling me that speeds less than 750rpm should not be used? If so, why not?
And if that is the case, why don't they make the minimum speed 750 instead of 450?
Thanks much!!
r.
 
r.

That makes sense.. in your "weird" way, but why run the the pump at all if you are not making chlorine? What do you gain by running at 500/600 RPM?

No matter, as it is your pool and you should run it however you want.. Just curious.

Thanks,

Jim R.
Jim,
Right... What I gain is having the pool circuit on 24x7 but not necessarily having to run at my minimum IntelliChlor speed of 1000 rpm 24x7.
I need to have the pool circuit on 24x7, so that I have some water movement (albeit, very low), through my sensor manifold so that I can have continuous sensor readings for graphing purposes. I know, I'm a freak with too much time on his hands.. But that's the simple reason, as "far out" :alien:as it may seem. :p
Thanks!!

EDIT: I should note that YES, I actually do swim and enjoy my pool. Probably more so than many. I just wanted to put that out, coz I have been accused in the past of getting too "into the weeds" and not just swimming and enjoying the pool. :laughblue:
 
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There are a lot of complicated physics that have to be considered when you are trying to understand motor efficiency, pump efficiency etc.

As you change the speed, the design of the impeller, diffuser and other components affect the efficiency.

The pump uses the power and speed to estimate the flow, but it does not work well for all situations.

At either end of the pump performance curve, the formula begins to become increasingly inaccurate.

Probably the best way to manage speed is to adjust the speed until it does what you want and the power will be what it is.

If you really want to get into the real information, you should probably get a good real power meter that can measure volts, amps, power factor, real power, apparent power and reactive power.

Then, you would need a really good flow meter to measure the flow.

The cost is not worthwhile unless you just really enjoy doing it and the money doesn't matter.
 
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There are a lot of complicated physics that have to be considered when you are trying to understand motor efficiency, pump efficiency etc.

As you change the speed, the design of the impeller, diffuser and other components affect the efficiency.

The pump uses the power and speed to estimate the flow, but it does not work well for all situations.

At either end of the pump performance curve, the formula begins to become increasingly inaccurate.

Probably the best way to manage speed is to adjust the speed until it does what you want and the power will be what it is.

If you really want to get into the real information, you should probably get a good real power meter that can measure volts, amps, power factor, real power, apparent power and reactive power.

Then, you would need a really good flow meter to measure the flow.

The cost is not worthwhile unless you just really enjoy doing it and the money doesn't matter.
James...
That all makes sense to me.
Perfect. And I know a geek who has that type of equipment I believe (I drool when I go over to his house).
He would like nothing better than to demo some of that to me in a real-world scenario.
Then I should be able to see if 500 or 600 rpm is actually less efficient than 700 rpm. The flow part, I'm not nearly as concerned with as I am merely attempting to ensure that 500 or 600 rpm is more or less efficient than 700 rpm since I'm not confident in what the IntelliFlo is reporting at the low end of the spectrum.

I realize that the questions raised here are a bit off the "beaten path" and so I do appreciate y'all getting down into the weeds with me for a minute or two and taking time to help me hash this out.
Thanks much!!
r.
 
Here are the findings that I came up with for what they are worth... I performed the following tests just to merely satisfy my own curiosity regarding this topic.

1. We used a digital display AC Power Meter to measure the wattage of the IntelliFlo VSF pump at every speed from 500rpm to 3400rpm at 100rpm increments. The power meter we used was found to be extremely accurate when calibrated against a B&K PrecisionTrue RMS Bench Meter. We found that the wattage indicated by the power meter were in most cases, an average of 15% - 20% higher than what was reported by the IntelliFlo pump.

2. I compared the GPM values reported by the pump with the flow rate values reported by the FlowVis Digital. At lower speeds, I found that the GPM values reported by the pump were wildly inaccurate compared to the GPM values reported by the FlowVis Digital. (see note 1)
At pump speeds over approximately 1500 RPM, the flow values reported by FlowVis Digital were approximately 45% higher than that of the flow values reported by the pump.

Note 1: In an attempt to confirm the accuracy of the FlowVis Digital at lower speeds, I performed two bucket tests. In these bucket tests, I configured the return settings to a water feature line with a hose adapter connected. This was the ONLY return line open for the test.

Bucket test #1: I set a pump speed (1300RPM), which would give me the closest value to 10 GPM as reported by the FlowVis digital. It reported a flow rate of 10 GPM. It took 30.25 seconds to fill up to the 5 gallon mark on a 5 gallon bucket.​
Bucket test #2. I set a pump speed (2600RPM) which would give me the closest value to 20 GPM as reported by the FlowVis digital. It reported a flow rate of 20 GPM. It took 14.8 seconds to fill up to the 5 gallon mark on a 5 gallon bucket.​

Note that the "bucket tests" were the most accurate way that I could actually test the validity of the numbers being reported by the FlowVis digital. The reason for the high RPM values was because the water was being forced at the end through a 3/4" line.

Note 2: I have concluded that the numbers reported by the IntelliFlo pump are calculations ONLY and are not representative of actual power used or of an accurate flow rate through the plumbing. I believe that the GPM calculations used by the IntelliFlo pump are based on the following equation: GPM=RPM/51 or something similar. It only makes sense, that this equation cannot account for Total Dynamic Head, Filter Loading, Plumbing variations etc.

Note 3: During a discussion that I had with H2flow Controls regarding the accuracy of the FlowVis Digital, I was informed of the following information. (Note that the following is merely "hear-say" and cannot be confirmed). I was told that during a trade show, that Pentair representatives had approached H2flow Controls with a proposal to examine the possibility of a "bundling venture" between the two companies. And that the Pentair reps had admitted that the flow numbers being reported by their pumps were fairly inaccurate because there was no way for the pump to account for "variables" in each plumbing situation. I don't know if this is true but it does give some "food for thought."

The information provided is based on my particular plumbing setup, my particular pump, etc. and should not be considered representative of any other situation.

Conclusions: I make no assumptions or draw any conclusions from these findings except for the following while using the data that I have gathered using my own particular equipment and methods :
- I believe that the reported GPM accuracy of the FlowVis Digital is much better than that of the IntelliFlow pump from what I have witnessed. Especially at lower pump speeds.
- I believe that the accuracy of the power consumption numbers reported by the IntelliFlo pump (although close in many instances (rpm)), are not quite as accurate as one might hope for but it's okay I guess.

r.

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81D0BC44-7136-439D-8956-9F5C43C517C4_1_105_c.jpeg 17DB7AA8-8A52-465F-9919-258EC85C1619_1_105_c.jpeg
 
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Thanks for sharing this information.

I think that the pump measures the power and then calculates the flow from the data they have at each speed and flow.

Once they have the flow, they can get the head loss from the pump performance curve.

Watts......GPM.....Head loss in feet
1,500.........12...........94
1,750.........28............93
2,000.........44...........90
2,167........57............88
2,333........67...........86
2,500.......79............83
2,750.......95...........78
2,900....115...........70

1623120018584-png.342914
 
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@JamesW
Thanks much!. Hmmm, yea that makes sense.

It's an outstanding pump, especially for the money. I guess that the algorithms they use was the most cost effective method of reporting flow and power consumption even if the numbers are not all that accurate, especially in certain speed ranges.
At least now I know what the real numbers are (Flow and Wattage) and I can interpolate between the two sets of numbers if need be.

Thanks again. :goodjob:
r.
 
What is the model number for the wattmeter that you used?

Did you record the power factor, filter pressure, vacuum pressure and pump reported system pressure (head loss) at each speed?
 
What is the model number for the wattmeter that you used?

Did you record the power factor, filter pressure, vacuum pressure and pump reported system pressure (head loss) at each speed?
I'm really not sure what the model of the power meter is, since it was my friends power meter, but I can find out..
I did not record any of those other items.
r.
 
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