Install Automation at Pool Build or Later?

[Belikin]

Hello Everyone! I'm Belikin. I'm about to begin my pool build in the next 45 days and have been offered the Intellicenter upgrade from my builder for ~$3800 installed at time of build. I am loathe to spend the additional dollars now if I don't have to. It appears I can pick up the intellicenter setup for around $1,500 from elsewhere so i'm assuming that this is something that could be back fitted to a new build after a month or two? Can anyone confirm this? That's really my major question, can I defer this upgrade until after the pool is installed and I've got reliable income to absorb the cost easier without it being some major boondoggle of a renovation on a brand new pool?
For background, I'm a former Aviation Electronics guy in the Navy, so I'm comfortable with electricity and wiring etc and even very minor programming especially if it's PLC based.
I've not worked in the field for over a decade though as I'm now finishing CRNA (Nurse Anesthetist) school. We are having the pool installed this year as I anticipate being a productive member of society again soon and with rates being as low as what they are with Corona freaking people out, I'm essentially adding the pool to my house for less than $150/month over what I pay now. But, i'm at the limit of my available money with the build of the pool and spa minus the smart controller.
Your thoughts appreciated.

 

[PoolGate]

Automation will make your life a lot easier but it is by no means a requirement. You can add it pretty much at any time. Depending how your builder wires things you'll most likely be rewiring most of your components. Without it though you'll be doing a lot of manual valve changes especially with a spa.

 

[Jimrahbe]

B,

Well, even if you were an aviation squid, I'm sure that even you could install an IntelliCenter...

That said, the best time to install an automation system is when the pool is being built. This is because...

The IntelliCenter (IC) is also the load center for all your circuit breakers. This means that you will have to install a load center at the equipment pad and then later on have to remove it and install the IC, which due to all the electrical conduits will be very hard, if not impossible to do. Or you could leave the ugly electrical box and then have to run new wires between it and the IC. It will look like a kluge job.

Pool lights get wired to the IC.. If you have no IC they will wire the lights to a switch. But, when you install the IC you will have to wire in lights and there may, or may not, be the electrical conduit you need to get from the light switch to the IC without digging up the new deck.

The SWCG (IC40) MUST never receive AC power when the pump is off.. The main way to do this is to wire the SWCG to the Pump/Filter relay inside the IC.. Since the relay only closes when the pump is running, the problem is solved.. Without the IC you will need a timer to control the SWCG, since the IntelliFlo pump will be get constant AC power.

Programming the IC operation is almost like typing this message.. Programming the pump to run without the IC is a little like riding a horse without a saddle.. it can be done, but it is somewhat painful..

If you install the IC yourself you will only get a 60 day warranty. If the pool builder does it, and you buy three items (Pump, SWCG, Automation), you generally get a 3 year warranty.

It is very unlikely that you will be able to buy an IC for $1,500. Keep in mind the IC for your pool should be a bundle that comes with the two valve actuators that allow you to switch between the Pool and Spa modes, as well at the salt cell and a built-in SWCG power supply. See this link... Pentair IntelliCenter i8PSIC40 Kit - Pool and Spa with Load Center and IC40

I could go on and on, but the point is... It is certainly possible for you to install an IC after the pool is built, but it just does not make a lot of sense to me. This is one of those "Penny wise, Pound foolish" kind of things,

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Jimrahbe]

B,

You did not say how big your pool will be... the IC40 is only good for pool up to 20K gallons.. If your pool is much bigger than 20K, you will need an IC60 SWCG. This is because salt cells are rated when running at 100% output and 24/7.. Something you just don't want to do..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[rmontgomery]

You can definitely install yourself afterward. You may want to check what they are including in the price however. I have the I8PS with IC40 and found it around $2700 online as a bundle. Just the I8PS was around $1900. Still at $2700, doing it yourself could save some money depending on extra material you need for install.

There is not much to it you will just need to make sure they run large enough AWG wire to support the subpanel and then attach water tight conduit where needed. I included a couple of pictures of my install. I personally added a second conduit to mine on the right for additional plugs I added to my patio. The electricians did a good job outside the panel. Inside was a lot to be desired. The pictures below of the inside are before I cleaned it up some. There is a top and bottom part to the panel. The bottom has the breakers and relays, top has signal connections. I attached pictures of both.
I have three automated valves (pictures were before third was added).

.

 

[Jimrahbe]

R,

Just to be clear... did you install your IntelliCenter as part of a new pool build, or did you add the IC to an old existing pool?

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[rmontgomery]

R,

Just to be clear... did you install your IntelliCenter as part of a new pool build, or did you add the IC to an old existing pool?

Thanks,

Jim R.

Sorry, should have been clear, IntelliCenter and IC40 were installed as part of new build. I did add a breaker and conduit myself to the subpanel for extra patio wiring during the pool build also (with builder's permission). Even if I had to choose again, I probably would still have them do the initial install as it took three of them most of the day to install and I had plenty of other projects going on that I needed to complete (fences, other electrical, landscape, etc).

Ryan

 

[Belikin]

Thanks everyone for your responses!
Rmontgomery the picture of your electrical box does not bring me joy at all...
It sounds like "could" do it, but since the pool isn't yet built, just makes more sense to suck it up and do the whole package. Guess, I'm gonna dig a little deeper and reap the rewards later.
Thanks again everyone.

 

[Belikin]

B,

Well, even if you were an aviation squid, I'm sure that even you could install an IntelliCenter...

That said, the best time to install an automation system is when the pool is being built. This is because...

The IntelliCenter (IC) is also the load center for all your circuit breakers. This means that you will have to install a load center at the equipment pad and then later on have to remove it and install the IC, which due to all the electrical conduits will be very hard, if not impossible to do. Or you could leave the ugly electrical box and then have to run new wires between it and the IC. It will look like a kluge job.

Pool lights get wired to the IC.. If you have no IC they will wire the lights to a switch. But, when you install the IC you will have to wire in lights and there may, or may not, be the electrical conduit you need to get from the light switch to the IC without digging up the new deck.

The SWCG (IC40) MUST never receive AC power when the pump is off.. The main way to do this is to wire the SWCG to the Pump/Filter relay inside the IC.. Since the relay only closes when the pump is running, the problem is solved.. Without the IC you will need a timer to control the SWCG, since the IntelliFlo pump will be get constant AC power.

Programming the IC operation is almost like typing this message.. Programming the pump to run without the IC is a little like riding a horse without a saddle.. it can be done, but it is somewhat painful..

If you install the IC yourself you will only get a 60 day warranty. If the pool builder does it, and you buy three items (Pump, SWCG, Automation), you generally get a 3 year warranty.

It is very unlikely that you will be able to buy an IC for $1,500. Keep in mind the IC for your pool should be a bundle that comes with the two valve actuators that allow you to switch between the Pool and Spa modes, as well at the salt cell and a built-in SWCG power supply. See this link... Pentair IntelliCenter i8PSIC40 Kit - Pool and Spa with Load Center and IC40

I could go on and on, but the point is... It is certainly possible for you to install an IC after the pool is built, but it just does not make a lot of sense to me. This is one of those "Penny wise, Pound foolish" kind of things,

Thanks,

Jim R.

Lol, nice poke Jim! I'm gonna let it ride since my Dad was Air Farce as well and I try to be kind to those less fortunate than myself and my fellow squids.

 

[Belikin]

B,

You did not say how big your pool will be... the IC40 is only good for pool up to 20K gallons.. If your pool is much bigger than 20K, you will need an IC60 SWCG. This is because salt cells are rated when running at 100% output and 24/7.. Something you just don't want to do..

Thanks,

Jim R.

About 400 sqft. Build should start mid-may from last i've been told.

 

[Jimrahbe]

B,

You need to know the amount of water in gallons.. It should be on the plans or just ask your pool builder.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[setsailsoon]

Belikin,

I believe I've done exactly what you are describing and I've done it twice. First time I upgraded to a Jandy automation after new pool build that had just manual timers for a 2-speed pump. Then a lightning strike wiped out a lot of my Jandy system. They changed their DIY/internet sale policy so I bit the bullet and changed to a Pentair based system and totally replaced my RS12 with Intellicenter. I didn't need any additional valves. My pool is described in my signature. Here are the things I think you should know before you get into this:

• Make sure your builder provided at least 40 amp 240 service. I prefer 60 amps so I have plenty of room to expand.
• You need to be very familiar with NEC and local code for the pool sub panel. If you're not get an electrician to help. You'll still save a bundle and won't take any risk. 240 vac, especially around a pool can hurt or kill you and/or swimmers if done wrong so don't take this on if you really haven't done this before. You only save a couple hundred $ for a qualified electrician and you'll learn a ton if you watch him.
• Order a complete kit like the one Jim recommended. You'll get everything you need+ and way cheaper than buying the parts separately.
• I would buy the IPS8IC with the right size for your pool. I already had a Circupool swg so I just went with the IPS8
• I used Polytec and they were superb
• There are a couple of places where a helper is useful such as mounting the new power center and pulling wire through conduit.
• Make sure you know the difference between a ground and a bonding system. You need both and they are not the same at all.
• Plan carefully and you can get it all done with a helper in less than two days. A good electrician can probably do it in half a day.
• TFP has great experts on Pentaiir and other systems. I researched a LOT after lightning took out part of my Jandy system. I believe Pentair Intellicenter is by far the best automation product on the market at the present time. @Jimrahbe, @MyAZPool, @ajw22 plus a few others are experienced experts that can help with any problem you'll face during this project.

Good luck and I hope this is helpful!

Chris

 

[Turbo1Ton]

FWIW - I just finished my pool build a month or so ago, and I can tell you hands down, I would have them install the Intellicenter now. I am not entirely happy with the workmanship that the electrician did (the inside of my panel looks like the photo Rmontgomery shared), but I for sure am happier cleaning up his mess, than completely reworking all of the controls. It would have been a nightmare trying to integrate the Intellicenter after the fact. Not that it can't be done but there is so much in the Intellicenter package that has to have separate components otherwise. Lights, SWCG, Load center, controller, etc.

 

[setsailsoon]

Belikin,

I believe I've done exactly what you are describing and I've done it twice. First time I upgraded to a Jandy automation after new pool build that had just manual timers for a 2-speed pump. Then a lightning strike wiped out a lot of my Jandy system. They changed their DIY/internet sale policy so I bit the bullet and changed to a Pentair based system and totally replaced my RS12 with Intellicenter. I didn't need any additional valves. My pool is described in my signature. Here are the things I think you should know before you get into this:

• Make sure your builder provided at least 40 amp 240 service. I prefer 60 amps so I have plenty of room to expand.
• You need to be very familiar with NEC and local code for the pool sub panel. If you're not get an electrician to help. You'll still save a bundle and won't take any risk. 240 vac, especially around a pool can hurt or kill you and/or swimmers if done wrong so don't take this on if you really haven't done this before. You only save a couple hundred $ for a qualified electrician and you'll learn a ton if you watch him.
• Order a complete kit like the one Jim recommended. You'll get everything you need+ and way cheaper than buying the parts separately.
• I would buy the IPS8IC with the right size for your pool. I already had a Circupool swg so I just went with the IPS8
• I used Polytec and they were superb
• There are a couple of places where a helper is useful such as mounting the new power center and pulling wire through conduit.
• Make sure you know the difference between a ground and a bonding system. You need both and they are not the same at all.
• Plan carefully and you can get it all done with a helper in less than two days. A good electrician can probably do it in half a day.
• TFP has great experts on Pentaiir and other systems. I researched a LOT after lightning took out part of my Jandy system. I believe Pentair Intellicenter is by far the best automation product on the market at the present time. @Jimrahbe, @MyAZPool, @ajw22 plus a few others are experienced experts that can help with any problem you'll face during this project.

Good luck and I hope this is helpful!

Chris

PS my cost was under $2000 for the Intellicenter kit and incidentals. The IPS8 leaves me plenty of room to grow with added features plus schedules (you have a total of 100).

 

[setsailsoon]

B,

Just went back and read your first post. What Intellicenter is being installed for $3800. That's not a bad price for the IPS8 if IC is included. Devil's in the details though. If it's the lower end with no IC it's pretty pricey.

Chris

 

[ajw22]

What Intellicenter is being installed for $3800.

A $3800 upgrade?? Upgrade from what? Installing the IntelliCenter saves the electrician from installing a subpanel, timers, and switches.

If you have an Intellichlor IC40 and a subpanel in your base bid then the incremental cost for the IntelliCenter is about $1,700 and it probably saves the electrician labor compared to building a subpanel. I think $3,800 is a pricey upgrade considering what is already in your pool quote.

 

[setsailsoon]

If you have an Intellichlor IC40 and a subpanel in your base bid then the incremental cost for the IntelliCenter is about $1,700 and it probably saves the electrician labor compared to building a subpanel. I think $3,800 is a pricey upgrade considering what is already in your pool quote.

Yes, the timer housing and power center would be another $2000 or so in parts plus, plus. When my pool was installed the builder wanted $3900 for a bare bones 4 relay, non expansible model as an upgrade to the timer. If you're getting an IPS8IC for that price it's a lot better than the deal I was offered. Still nowhere near as good as installing yourself though.

Chris

 

[Belikin]

Thanks all. I've had to make some last minute design changes in order to keep COMWIFEFORATL happy with everything. (The military guys, especially Navy better be laughing at that joke). In any case, the wife insists that she'll be the one to go manually turn the valves to switch between jacuzzi and pool when we want to use the jacuzzi and that we should not spend those extra dollars as they are (just barely) over what we had agreed upon between ourselves for the build. Cheers to staying within budget I suppose. ?‍
Final design is ~15,000 gallons. LED lights with Intellicenter controller. Pentair Variable speed pump. Salt system. Swim out Jacuzzi, 6' deep. Including drawing of pool for anyone interested. I reduced our paver size as well to leave a little more yard that I anticipate adding an outdoor kitchen and firepit once I have new job income next year.
Thanks for all the input everyone!