Ignore it or Treat it

[71ailmar]

Pool water is clean and clear. Our SWG is sized too small (IC40 for a 32k pool) so in summer I find myself adding some liquid chlorine here and there, which I'm fine with but lately I feel like the chlorine is having a harder time keeping up. After adding MA and Chlorine (seperate times), water is:
FC 5.0 / CC 0.5
pH 7.5
TA 40
CYA 50

I'm usually battling pH rise, my pool loves to sit at 8/8.2 and as TA has slowly lowered over time, my pH rise has slowed a bit compared to previously when my TA was higher at 70-80. So should I leave it and not add baking soda? And if I leave it for now, at what point do I add baking soda....it's already less than the recommended level for a salt water pool.

As for CYA, I'm assuming I might be going through chlorine a little quicker as my CYA is too low....what would be the ideal # to raise it to, another 10? 20? Or leave it at 50 and keep monitoring? I guess I could add chlorine pucks which helps both the chlorine levels and the CYA...

 

[duraleigh]

40 ppm TA is just a tad below our suggested levels. rather than push the envelope I would add enough baking soda to get it to 50 and then monitor that for a while. That should minimize your pH rise somewhat.

Splitting fine hairs, here. TA test is off plus or minus 10 ppm but I would still calculate and add the baking soda.

CYA in the phoenix sun?? I would suggest 70, possibly going to 80 if you continue to consume a lot of chlorine. (more than 3 ppm)

 

[proavia]

For the TA test - did you continue to add drops until the color stopped changing and then subtract the last drop that didn't change the color - or did you stop the test when the sample turned pink?
Test the pH, TA and CH of your fill water. If city tap water, TA will probably be around 110-130 ppm and CH north of 200 ppm.
Based on how you did the TA test (hint - the first way is correct), you may or may not need to add a little baking soda.

As Dave suggested, with a SWG, a CYA of 70 (possibly 80) will work best in our summer heat and UV.
Be sure to dose FC based on your CYA - FC/CYA Levels

 

[cdadams1223]

Use PoolMath to determine the amount of CYA you need. I’d bump it to at least 75ppm or, according to your pool specs, 105oz. Use granular CYA via the sock method. This is assuming you’re truly at 50ppm now.

 

[71ailmar]

For the TA test - did you continue to add drops until the color stopped changing and then subtract the last drop that didn't change the color - or did you stop the test when the sample turned pink?
Test the pH, TA and CH of your fill water. If city tap water, TA will probably be around 110-130 ppm and CH north of 200 ppm.
Based on how you did the TA test (hint - the first way is correct), you may or may not need to add a little baking soda.

As Dave suggested, with a SWG, a CYA of 70 (possibly 80) will work best in our summer heat and UV.
Be sure to dose FC based on your CYA - FC/CYA Levels

Regarding the TA, I stopped when it turned pink. Usually my TA is much higher and while I've always added acid quite frequently in the past, for some reason this summer it has dropped this low. Usually in the 70-80 range if I recall correctly.
And I believe with recent usage (we get a lot of boys in our pool that love to splash and jump from spa to pool creating huge splash out) may have caused our CYA to go down from the usual readings (about 60-70).
And I'll test my water, thanks for the advice!

 

[71ailmar]

Use PoolMath to determine the amount of CYA you need. I’d bump it to at least 75ppm or, according to your pool specs, 105oz. Use granular CYA via the sock method. This is assuming you’re truly at 50ppm now.

I already bought liquid stabilizer and according to the bottles recommendation as well as pool math, a whole gallon would increase my CYA by 12ppm. So if I'm 50, Id be looking at 62. And if I read the test wrong (I dont think I did but you never know) and I was actually at 60, then I'd be 72....still not a bad number to be at I suppose.

 

[Lilypad]

The liquid stabilizer clumps at the bottom of the bottle. If you haven’t used liquid before, be sure
to get all of it out. Granular in a sock on a pole in front of a return is a less expensive option
than the bottle. You have a bit more sun than we do. I run my CYA @ 50-60 without a SWG.
If I had one, I'd go to 70 for added protection for my chlorine.

 

[proavia]

Regarding the TA, I stopped when it turned pink. Usually my TA is much higher and while I've always added acid quite frequently in the past, for some reason this summer it has dropped this low. Usually in the 70-80 range if I recall correctly.
And I believe with recent usage (we get a lot of boys in our pool that love to splash and jump from spa to pool creating huge splash out) may have caused our CYA to go down from the usual readings (about 60-70).
And I'll test my water, thanks for the advice!

In that case, retest the TA and take the test to completion.
Same with the CH test - continue to add drops until the last drop doesn't change the color and then subtract that last drop.

I see your PoolMath logs are linked to your forum user account.
Enter a full set of current test results in PoolMath and save them.

Also post your fill water pH, TA and CH to this thread.

 

[cdadams1223]

I already bought liquid stabilizer and according to the bottles recommendation as well as pool math, a whole gallon would increase my CYA by 12ppm. So if I'm 50, Id be looking at 62. And if I read the test wrong (I dont think I did but you never know) and I was actually at 60, then I'd be 72....still not a bad number to be at I suppose.

When I was “Pool Stored”, I purchased liquid stabilizer as well. My advice is let that be your last addition of the liquid. The granular is cheaper and not hard to do via the sock method.

If you haven’t read on this site already, visualizing your CYA results in the tube can be challenging. Some of the pros here recommended doing it this way: get your 50/50 mix going of pool water and R-0013. Shake 30 seconds, and fill up to the 90 or 80 line, take a quick glance, if dot still there, drop it down another 10, still there, repeat. Do this until the black dot is no longer visible. I like this method much better than slowly filling the tube and waiting for the dot to disappear.

You have that Arizona sun and I the Texas sun. We’re both getting hammered right now lol! Help out your SWG and keep it between 70-80.

 

[cdadams1223]

Post in thread 'Help Needed! I don't understand...'
Help Needed! I don't understand...

@proavia said it better than I did on the above thread.

 

[pjt]

I stopped when it turned pink

Keep adding drops until there is no further color change. For me, it takes another 2-3 drops after the initial color change. If the drop results in no change of color, disregard it and the test is complete. If your TA is truly 40, I would add a whisper of baking soda to bump your TA to 50.

what would be the ideal # to raise it to

In Phoenix with a SWCG, I would suggest a CYA level of 80.

my pool loves to sit at 8/8.2

pH in the high 7s or even ~8 is perfectly fine. Let your water achieve TA/pH equilibrium. Otherwise, you'll be chasing your tail with MA and baking soda additions.

Ultra UV2

Is your UV system functioning? If so, it's depleting your FC. You get ample free UV from the sun in Phoenix.

 

[71ailmar]

Thanks everyone for your input and recommendations.

I ended up using liquid stabilizer this time because I didnt have time to wait for granular stabilizer to dissolve as we have people coming for a pool party. Wanted to get CYA to acceptable levels and increase FC accordingly.

I repeated the TA test and this time at 40 the water didnt turn fully pink like before, was pink with some purple still. At 50 it turned pink and I went ahead and added 5 more drops but no significant color change after it turned pink. Since it's reading 50 now, I'll just keep an eye on it.

And pH is now 7.8 (I started at 7.2 after adding in over 1/2 gallon of MA a couple days ago)...I'll start checking it every day and wait till it goes over 8.0 then I'll add more M.A. If it take a full week for that to happen, I'd be thrilled! There were times before that within 2-3 days it would be over 8.0 from a 7.2 level.

And once our pool party is done, I'll be doing an OCLT. There have been a few time my FC has been 0.5 due to the salt cell not functioning properly (*cough* we forgot to clean it *cough*) and on top of the CYA being really low right now along with the cell due to be cleaned again, I suspect there may be some algae. I'll be dumping a whole ton of liquid chlorine tonight (maybe close to slam levels) to be ready for tomorrow's pool party.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[cdadams1223]

Thanks everyone for your input and recommendations.

I ended up using liquid stabilizer this time because I didnt have time to wait for granular stabilizer to dissolve as we have people coming for a pool party. Wanted to get CYA to acceptable levels and increase FC accordingly.

I repeated the TA test and this time at 40 the water didnt turn fully pink like before, was pink with some purple still. At 50 it turned pink and I went ahead and added 5 more drops but no significant color change after it turned pink. Since it's reading 50 now, I'll just keep an eye on it.

And pH is now 7.8 (I started at 7.2 after adding in over 1/2 gallon of MA a couple days ago)...I'll start checking it every day and wait till it goes over 8.0 then I'll add more M.A. If it take a full week for that to happen, I'd be thrilled! There were times before that within 2-3 days it would be over 8.0 from a 7.2 level.

And once our pool party is done, I'll be doing an OCLT. There have been a few time my FC has been 0.5 due to the salt cell not functioning properly (*cough* we forgot to clean it *cough*) and on top of the CYA being really low right now along with the cell due to be cleaned again, I suspect there may be some algae. I'll be dumping a whole ton of liquid chlorine tonight (maybe close to slam levels) to be ready for tomorrow's pool party.

Thanks again everyone!

Make sure you retest the CYA a few days later. It will not be accurate 15-30 minutes after you add it. Yeah keep an eye on your TA. As of now it’s good at 50. As @pjt mentioned above, as long as your pH is in between 7-8 you’re fine. If it exceeds 8 just add some MA. It will eventually reach equilibrium.

As for your SWG, it shouldn’t need to be cleaned frequently. Don’t use MA to clean it. Just use good ol distilled vinegar. Sometimes it helps to have some popsicle sticks on hand if you see any build up you can gently knock off before you dump the vinegar in there.

 

[pjt]

And pH is now 7.8

With TA of 50, pH rise will be minimal and should stabilize in the high 7s or ~8.0, which is fine.

I'll add more M.A

Don't disrupt TA/pH equilibrium with a large MA addition.

There have been a few time my FC has been 0.5 due to the salt cell not functioning properly

Are you sure that's the root cause of your low FC? With proper water chemistry, you should never (or very rarely) have to clean your cell. If cleaning it truly necessary, follow the guide:

SWG How It Works - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Did you measure the TA and CH of your fill water yet?

 

[71ailmar]

Make sure you retest the CYA a few days later. It will not be accurate 15-30 minutes after you add it. Yeah keep an eye on your TA. As of now it’s good at 50. As @pjt mentioned above, as long as your pH is in between 7-8 you’re fine. If it exceeds 8 just add some MA. It will eventually reach equilibrium.

As for your SWG, it shouldn’t need to be cleaned frequently. Don’t use MA to clean it. Just use good ol distilled vinegar. Sometimes it helps to have some popsicle sticks on hand if you see any build up you can gently knock off before you dump the vinegar in there.

I checked the stabilizer about 8 hours after I added the liquid....would that be enough time? I'm going to check it again a little later as well as test my fill water and I'll report back.

As for the pH/TA - it's been 3 years and it has yet to reach equilibrium, LOL. This morning pH was back up to 8.2 despite TA being at 50. The TA is the lowest it's ever been and it doesn't seem to make a difference to the pH. Maybe when I test the fill water it'll shed a bit more light on things. And how long is the red regeant good for, it couldnt be that the reagent is bad right? I store it in the house away from any heat/water source...it's been probably 18 months since purchase.

And our salt cell is flashing green meaning it needs to be checked which is what we're going to do. Cleaned it last about 3 months ago and it was pretty full of scaling...because we hadn't checked it for about 9 months and we do have horribly hard water here....difficult to keep that in balance with everything else to prevent scaling. We should have emptied our pool this past winter. Planning to do it this year. So you're saying vinegar is more effective at removing any buildup than MA? We usually use the hose first, as you mentioned, and then do the MA. I've got white distilled vinegar that I can try if that's better.

 

[71ailmar]

With TA of 50, pH rise will be minimal and should stabilize in the high 7s or ~8.0, which is fine.


Don't disrupt TA/pH equilibrium with a large MA addition.


Are you sure that's the root cause of your low FC? With proper water chemistry, you should never (or very rarely) have to clean your cell. If cleaning it truly necessary, follow the guide:

SWG How It Works - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Did you measure the TA and CH of your fill water yet?

Hi pjt,

As mentioned in my reply to cdadams, our hardness here in AZ is off the charts so it's hard to keep everything in balance regarding the CH to prevent scaling. Id need to be emptying my pool every 18 months to control things better but that's not practical. We should have emptied this past winter so we'll do it this year for sure.

And as for the low FC, that's what happened last time....we forgot to clean the SWG (it had been at least 9 months I hadnt checked it) and all of a sudden my FC readings were really low despite using "super chlorinate." The minute we cleaned the SWG and restarted, my FC readings shot back up.

And I'll be testing my fill water in a bit and I"ll report back! Maybe that will shed light on the pH/TA issue.

 

[pjt]

our hardness here in AZ is off the charts so it's hard to keep everything in balance regarding the CH

Have you considered a water softener for your fill line?

Can you post complete current test results (or enter in PoolMath)?

FC
CC
pH
TA
CH
CYA
Salt
Temp
CSI

Ultra UV2

Is your UV system functioning? If so, it's depleting your FC. You get ample free UV from the sun in Phoenix.

 

[pjt]

As for the pH/TA - it's been 3 years and it has yet to reach equilibrium

PH TA Relationship - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[71ailmar]

I'm shocked to find out that my fill water's pH is 8.0 - 8.2 (it was much closer to the 8.2 reference color and definitely more pink than the 7.8 reference color). So what does that mean for the pool....is there a way to test if it goes higher than 8.2? I would assume I'd just leave it unless it goes higher than 8.2?

As for the rest of my fill water:
120 TA
250-300 CH
FC <0.5
I'm assuming there should be no reading for stabilizer but I did the test anyway....it was super clear to the tip top of the cylinder.

Current pool water:
5 FC w/ 0.5 CC
8.2 pH
50 TA
50 CYA (I'm going to add another container of stabilizer, trying to get towards 70)
1250 CH (last season I was getting 1000 - 1100)

 

[proavia]

You should be able to get thru the Summer and early Fall with your high CH - but a full drain after the weather here "cools" off will be in order.
It's just way to hot to do a drain right now.
You will need to play the pH and TA game for the rest of the hot weather.

Chances are you will evaporate most of your entire pool volume ever year - but the CH, being a solid, doesn't evaporate. So your CH will rise by at least your tap water CH on a yearly basis.

I was able to manage a CH of almost 1500 - but it took keeping the pH down around 7.2. Of course, I did need to add baking soda a few times that Summer to keep the TA from dropping lower than 50-ish.
After that, I decided to plumb my water softener to my autofill line. This has has allowed my CH to only climb 50ppm (fifty ppm) in almost 3 years.

Are you in PHX proper or one of the 'burbs?

When your SWG gives out, seriously consider replacing it with an IC60.
With 31k gallon pool and in The Valley of the Sun, an IC40 is just too small.
We recommend an SWG sized for at least 2x the pool volume.