IC60 Measuring Salt Level Often

[Dirk]

All the make sense, but the com port is not going to shut off the IC60 or the IpH by removing the DC power..

I think we're saying the same thing. If the power is shutting off to the IC60, it's not the IpH doing that, they'd both be going off together. I gave the OP a troubleshooting tip to determine if that's what's happening. Otherwise, it's some sort of errant command that is triggering the re-run, and I suppose that could be any of the electronics involved.

If the OP has checked all the wiring connections (cleaned and shiny), your idea to take the IpH out of the loop is the next step. That would narrow down the culprit list with very little effort.

OP, as always, be sure all the breakers are off before disconnecting any cables running between IC, IpH and controller.

 

[jimbethesda]

I think we're saying the same thing. If the power is shutting off to the IC60, it's not the IpH doing that, they'd both be going off together. I gave the OP a troubleshooting tip to determine if that's what's happening. Otherwise, it's some sort of errant command that is triggering the re-run, and I suppose that could be any of the electronics involved.

If the OP has checked all the wiring connections (cleaned and shiny), your idea to take the IpH out of the loop is the next step. That would narrow down the culprit list with very little effort.

OP, as always, be sure all the breakers are off before disconnecting any cables running between IC, IpH and controller.

To close the loop here for anyone else searching the forums in the future.

Soon after noticing this issue, my Intelliph board fried for the 2nd time. Now Pentair says the IC60 draws too much current for the Intelliph. They swapped out my IC60 for an IC40. My pool is 20,000 gallons, so no biggie. Those with larger pools might want to rethink a standalone Intelliph. I think it’s fine with an IC60 if you also get the Intellichem, but not sure.

My IC60 was likely power-cycling due to it overwhelming the capacity of the IntelliPH to delivery the sufficient power thus re-measuring the salt every-time it came back up.

 

[Dirk]

Good to know. A simple relay circuit could solve this for others that already have the IC60 and IpH, if an IC40 would not be large enough for their pool.

 

[jimbethesda]

Dirk - I thought the reason they "talked" to each other was so IntelliPH could tell the salt cell not to produce while it was injecting acid. My acid injection is just before the cell. Does it matter if the cell is producing when acid is being injected?

 

[Dirk]

That's the down side of all the other systems, including the IpH kludge. Acid fumes and chlorine fumes combine to make a very toxic gas. I don't know what happens to that if it's made inside an IC and then pumped out into the pool. Pentair thought it was dangerous enough to add the safety-shutdown feature, so there might be something to that. I like the feature. So if you circumvent the IpH controller, you have to decide if that's something that is important to you. One work-around for the DIY sans-controller solution would be to schedule acid injection before the SWG schedule kicks in. So say a long squirt of acid at 8:00am, then the SWG starts up at 8:30am. You'd loose the nice IpH feature of injecting every hour, which keeps pH very stable for the duration of your pump run, but realistically adding acid once a day is more than most people do manually, and fine for a pool.

To be clear, I'm suggesting two different solutions, for two different problems.

One, you get rid of the IpH controller and keep (or buy) just the hopper and the pump and run those once a day for a minute using the relays within your IntelliCenter, or EasyTouch. You'd need to schedule the injection as I suggested above, you'd need a dedicated transformer and DC converter to run the IpH pump, and you might also want to wire the transformer to the pool circuit, in series with the acid relay circuit, so that even if the acid circuit kicked on, the acid pump wouldn't get power unless the pool circuit was also running: no flow, no acid. Then to be extra safe, you could also wire in a separate flow switch in series to double-down that no acid gets injected without flow. That solution is for running the IpH pump without the controller, including during cold-water season.

The other solution I mentioned still uses the IpH controller, but wires the IC60 to a relay (not an IntelliCenter relay, a separate stand-alone relay) that would get triggered by the IpH controller, but not get powered by the IpH circuit board. The relay would power the IC, directly from the IC transformer. The two wires that power the IC are not the same two that communicate with it (I think). So you wouldn't lose the "symbiotic" relationship the two have. You'd just be bypassing drawing all the IC amps through the IpH circuit board. Not sure I'm describing that well enough. It's all theorhetical at this point, nobody's tried it yet (I dreamed it up this morning), but I think it's possible. That would be a way to keep the IpH controller in the system, with all it's safety goodies, without melting it due to an IC60.

 

[MyAZPool]

@jimbethesda / @Dirk

This topic has piqued my interest due to the fact that I am replacing the IpH and will run the peristaltic pump with a relay instead.
I have been trying to find the reference to the feature mentioned here that "halts IntelliChlor chlorine production when the IpH is dosing MA". For the life of me, I can't find that anywhere. I'm sure I'm scanning right over it somewhere but still no luck...

Can one of y'all fine gentleman please point me in the right direction to the reference of this safety feature so I can gain a bit more insight...

Thanks much in advance!!
r.

 

[Dirk]

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. It's likely I am the reference. I mention this feature a lot. Especially when justifying the use of an IpH vs other systems. I don't believe it is in the manual. It is something I've observed. I can't remember where I first learned about it... I might have read about it, or I might have just spotted it happening. But I do know it happens.

The feature is part of the IpH/IC combo setup. It's a function of the IpH controller, which communicates directly with the IC. It's not a function of the IC. If that helps. Once you get rid of the IpH controller, you get rid of this safety feature.

 

[MyAZPool]

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. It's likely I am the reference. I mention this feature a lot. Especially when justifying the use of an IpH vs other systems. I don't believe it is in the manual. It is something I've observed. I can't remember where I first learned about it... I might have read about it, or I might have just spotted it happening. But I do know it happens.

@Dirk.
Thanks for getting back. ... I was just looking for more details and thought that you had maybe uncovered this feature in some documentation somewhere that I was unable to find. You know me, I'm never satisfied with the ole "don't worry about how it works, it just works" explanation. I like to discover the "how" and "why" details just for grins. Yea, I know. Curiosity killed the cat.

Hey, thanks again!
r.

 

[Dirk]

I edited that post as you were writing. I was just searching the 'net for any blurb about it, couldn't find it. And I can't test it for you now because I'm all shut down for the winter. My IC won't generate for several months...

 

[MyAZPool]

I edited that post as you were writing. I was just searching the 'net for any blurb about it, couldn't find it. And I can't test it for you now because I'm all shut down for the winter. My IC won't generate for several months...

Understand and same here as well. I have found some material that touches on this topic but not specifically. Like in the IntelliChem doc, when they talk about a feature called "Dose Priority". But there, it appears as though they are referencing the simultaneous dosing of acid and liquid chlorine as they make no mention of an IntelliChlor although an IntelliChlor is an option for chlorine management with the IntelliChem....

Anyway, thanks again Dirk!!
Take care...
r..

 

[Flying Tivo]

On my thread about using the iPh as a stand alone stenner, i noticed that dosing acid while the IC is doing the calibration/testing, makes the salt readings lower than when you dose acid after the test.

Does it matter if the cell is producing when acid is being injected?

It does not matter as long as its not on the self calibration/salt reading initial phase.

My experience with the iph/ic combo is that the IC draws too much current for the connectors inside the iph boards. The connectors are the ones that overheat and fry the board of the iph.

 

[Dirk]

The Pentair-recommended IpH/IC installation (and how I have mine), has the IpH injector inches away from the IC inlet. Pumping MA into an active IC--mixing acid and chlorine gas--has got to be a bad idea, right? I can see how throwing off the IC's calibration cycle would also be bad, but I don't think that's the only reason Pentair has the IC shutdown while the IpH is actively injecting.

The IpH controller knows when the IC is calibrating. It indicates that on the IpH screen while it's happening. So if the only reason to shutdown the IC was to protect the calibration, the IpH controller could limit the shutdown feature to only that scenario. But the IpH controller also shuts down IC production for every IpH injection, which leads me to believe it has more to do with the mixing of the two chemicals than anything else. We all know you're not supposed to introduce MA into a pool shortly after using liquid chlorine, right?

Any who, regarding your other comment Felipe, about the current draw, I commented on that earlier. I think it would be simple enough to rig up a relay that would apply current to the pump without running that current through the IpH circuit board. The only current that would go through the board (and its inadequate connector) is enough to drive the relay. Something like that.

I was going to go check on my IpH's board, when this talk of melting connectors was brought up. But the most recent news is that it's only a problem for the IC60, not the IC40 (which is what I have). Hopefully that's the case. I suggested this DIY relay cure for those that already have, or are going to need, an IC60 and want to run an IpH. A hope was mentioned that Pentair will address this shortcoming. I can only hold my breath for about 2 minutes. I don't think that's going to be enough!

 

[Dirk]

Understand and same here as well. I have found some material that touches on this topic but not specifically. Like in the IntelliChem doc, when they talk about a feature called "Dose Priority". But there, it appears as though they are referencing the simultaneous dosing of acid and liquid chlorine as they make no mention of an IntelliChlor although an IntelliChlor is an option for chlorine management with the IntelliChem....

Not sure why you need this info if you're going to abandon the IpH controller. Are you just looking for the reason the IpH does that, to determine if you need to? I can only schedule four things with my worthless ET PSL4, but doesn't your IntelliCenter allow 100s of schedules? You could easily recreate the safeguard, as I mentioned. You can't schedule anything for less that a minute, right? So, depending on your acid dilution, at most you'd need one acid injection a day, probably less. So do the injection first thing, wait a few minutes, then fire up the SWG.

I don't know how to program an IntelliCenter, but with my ET there are a couple ways I can get the pump running without triggering the IC. I could inject acid during my cleaner schedule. That runs without the SWG. Or I could inject during a 15 minute spa run. I don't have a spa, but I use spa mode to run the pump for an extra bit of solar heating. Stay with me... In the summer I run "pool mode" most of the day. The SWG runs that entire time. The solar does too (coming on an off based on temp). But if I want to run my solar longer than my normal schedule, say to keep the pool warm for a swim party later that night, I'll switch over to spa mode. This dials the SWG down to 0% output, but keeps the solar heater going. I do this so the extra two or three hours of runtime don't mess with my SWG dosing schedule.

You could do the same for your acid injecting, assuming you're not actually using the IntellliCenter and pool plumbing for your detached spa. Program your IntellliCenter spa mode for 0% SWG. Schedule spa mode for the first 15 minutes of your pump run. The SWG will fire up and calibrate, but won't produce any chlorine. Wait 5 minutes for the SWG startup to complete, then inject acid for a minute. Then 10 minutes later switch from spa mode to pool mode and your SWG will start producing.

With enough schedules, and if you needed to, you could do that several times a day: just go into spa mode (0% SWG) whenever you need to inject acid. That would simulate exactly what the IpH controller does.

 

[MyAZPool]

Not sure why you need this info if you're going to abandon the IpH controller. Are you just looking for the reason the IpH does that, to determine if you need to?

Thanks @Dirk And yes sir, that is correct. I'm just looking to find out more about it. Seems that when the IntelliChem doses acid, it does not really seem to care if its an IntelliChlor dosing chlorine simultaneously. It seems to only be concerned with simultaneous dosing safeguards when it's liquid chlorine being used for chlorine management. I'm still in the process of trying to sort that one out. Go figure...

I don't know how to program an IntelliCenter, but with my ET there are a couple ways I can get the pump running without triggering the IC. I could inject acid during my cleaner schedule. That runs without the SWG. Or I could inject during a 15 minute spa run. I don't have a spa, but I use spa mode to run the pump for an extra bit of solar heating. Stay with me... In the summer I run "pool mode" most of the day. The SWG runs that entire time. The solar does too (coming on an off based on temp). But if I want to run my solar longer than my normal schedule, say to keep the pool warm for a swim party later that night, I'll switch over to spa mode. This dials the SWG down to 0% output, but keeps the solar heater going. I do this so the extra two or three hours of runtime don't mess with my SWG dosing schedule.

You could do the same for your acid injecting, assuming you're not actually using the IntellliCenter and pool plumbing for your detached spa. Program your IntellliCenter spa mode for 0% SWG. Schedule spa mode for the first 15 minutes of your pump run. The SWG will fire up and calibrate, but won't produce any chlorine. Wait 5 minutes for the SWG startup to complete, then inject acid for a minute. Then 10 minutes later switch from spa mode to pool mode and your SWG will start producing.

With enough schedules, and if you needed to, you could do that several times a day: just go into spa mode (0% SWG) whenever you need to inject acid. That would simulate exactly what the IpH controller does.

Thanks for all of the explanations on how I could setup timing. I appreciate that a lot.... But unfortunately, that kind of misses the point of how this new chem system will operate. I'm not looking to get rid of one timer just to replace it with another. Otherwise, I could just keep the IpH.

With this new system, dosing will be predicated on pH readings ONLY. Or it still gives me the option to dose manually just for redundancy sake. Setting up "timers" will have nothing to do with it. If the pH is .1 high, then it will dose. But only IF all safety protocols have first been met. i.e. Pool body circuit is active meaning the pump is on, Max volume has not been exceeded, Max dosing time has not been exceeded. Max mixing time has not been exceed etc. etc.

I'm working closely with the developer and most likely by the time that I need to be concerned with this for real, that will be when the water temp is such that I can and need to use the IntelliChlor again. By that time, it's likely that "latches" will be developed and embedded in the software. These "latches" could very well make the IntelliChlor inop for a short period of time, anytime an acid dose is required. I guess more to follow on that and how it will likely work. It's all Pure _ Magic to me. LOL

Thanks much!! As usual, your responses are helpful...
r.

 

[Jimrahbe]

I really doubt that adding acid while the IC40 is producing chlorine would cause any issues at all... It is not like this is happening in a vacuum.. It will all be mixed with plenty of water.

If I had a acid feeder, I'd try it and report the results.. Although I am not sure what tests I'd have to do to prove it..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Dirk]

r,

Right, coming back to me now that you're building a "smart" system. If you want to pursue this safety feature, and if you can't bend the IC to your will to cooperate, how about this? Your system could monitor pH constantly (or periodically), but instead of dosing on demand, it instead just queues the need for a dose. Then performs the dose at scheduled "safe" times. Like a few minutes after pump startup, or x number of periods during the pump run that a schedule pauses the IC (using the "spa method" I described).

Ideally, of course, you reverse-engineer whatever the IpH is doing to pause the IC, but in case you can't, this could be one possible workaround.

Your system could easily shut off the IC, I'm sure, but then the IC would have to repeat its startup process each time. Not the worst thing, but not as "cool" as the pause command the IpH can initiate.

I'm 50-50 in Jim's camp. I pretty much ignore the notion of waiting 15-30 minutes between doses of chlorine and acid, for the very reason he states. If I dumped in a cup of acid in front of an active return, it'd be almost impossible to ready a dose of chlorine and pour that into the same spot fast enough to get any sort of chemical reaction out of 12K gallons of water! So if I pour in LC a minute after dosing MA, I don't think twice about it. (I'm sure the bird that fell out of the sky and dropped dead that one time was just a coincidence! )

That said, the warning NOT to do that is well supported here at TFP, so somebody thinks mixing the two in pool water is not a good idea. Pentair thinks that (based on the safety feature they engineered into the IpH). If it actually could be a problem, then certainly injecting acid a few inches in front of an active IC has got to be a sure fire way to reveal it.

Or just as likely this could have been one engineer's unscientific notion? Or an edict from Pentair's legal staff?

Now, I once did forget to rinse the last few drops of MA out of the measuring cup I use to dispense both MA and LC. The subsequent pour of LC into that cup definitely fizzled right up and produced some sort of gas. So that part of the narrative seems to be real...

*** Now for all you TFPers out there that are eavesdropping on this conversation, I was just kidding. DO wait a good while between doses of liquid chlorine and muriatic acid!! I always do! I swear!! And DON'T use the same measuring cup for both chlorine and acid. I never do that!! Wait... what?... Oh, right... My lawyer said to say that my lawyer didn't make me say that. Wait... what? Don't write that? Which part? Sheesh.

PS: here's another condition for you to consider: maybe don't inject acid after 30 minutes before end of pump run. I consider this myself in my scheduling. I don't want any acid entering the pool minutes before the pump stops. It's a long shot that doing so would cause any real issues, but I like the idea of my pool circulating for at least 30 minutes right after I dose anything, especially acid.

 

[Dirk]

As usual, your responses are helpful...

That's very gracious of you. I don't imagine you need any of my help getting this done. You're lightyears ahead of the rest of the industry, let alone me. But if software is involved, and my name appears in the scrolling credits of the "About" dialog box, say... in the "Other Contributors" section, I wouldn't complain (nor would my lawyer). Wait... What? Don't write that? Well make up your mind! Sheesh.

 

[Jimrahbe]

I suspect that they shut off the IC40, when they want to run the iPH motor, just because the DC power supply can't produce enough current to drive both the iPh and the IC40 at the same time.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[MyAZPool]

I really doubt that adding acid while the IC40 is producing chlorine would cause any issues at all... It is not like this is happening in a vacuum.. It will all be mixed with plenty of water.
If I had a acid feeder, I'd try it and report the results.. Although I am not sure what tests I'd have to do to prove it..
Thanks,

Jim R.

PREFACE.... I was going to respond to Jim's post with the following (which I still will LOL), but between the time I had it typed up and before clicking "Post Reply", my wife had somehow managed to break the push-button garage door opener. So by the time I wrestled that alligator until now, I'm way behind the power curve Good grief LOL...

Thanks Jim!!
I appreciate that.
And that is how others have expressed it to me as well and it makes sense to me. But there seems to be differing opinions and so that is the sole reason on why I'm trying to find a definitive answer. And I may never know for sure. Either I dose acid while the IC-60 is producing chlorine and nothing bad happens or the thing blows sky high. In either case, that will prove the point once and for all.
At some time in the future, I would prefer to just drop the "guinea pig" title and just chill for a while...
r.

 

[MyAZPool]

r,

Right, coming back to me now that you're building a "smart" system. If you want to pursue this safety feature, and if you can't bend the IC to your will to cooperate, how about this? Your system could monitor pH constantly (or periodically), but instead of dosing on demand, it instead just queues the need for a dose. Then performs the dose at scheduled "safe" times. Like a few minutes after pump startup, or x number of periods during the pump run that a schedule pauses the IC (using the "spa method" I described).

Ideally, of course, you reverse-engineer whatever the IpH is doing to pause the IC, but in case you can't, this could be one possible workaround.

Your system could easily shut off the IC, I'm sure, but then the IC would have to repeat its startup process each time. Not the worst thing, but not as "cool" as the pause command the IpH can initiate.

I'm 50-50 in Jim's camp. I pretty much ignore the notion of waiting 15-30 minutes between doses of chlorine and acid, for the very reason he states. If I dumped in a cup of acid in front of an active return, it'd be almost impossible to ready a dose of chlorine and pour that into the same spot fast enough to get any sort of chemical reaction out of 12K gallons of water! So if I pour in LC a minute after dosing MA, I don't think twice about it. (I'm sure the bird that fell out of the sky and dropped dead that one time was just a coincidence! )

That said, the warning NOT to do that is well supported here at TFP, so somebody thinks mixing the two in pool water is not a good idea. Pentair thinks that (based on the safety feature they engineered into the IpH). If it actually could be a problem, then certainly injecting acid a few inches in front of an active IC has got to be a sure fire way to reveal it.

Or just as likely this could have been one engineer's unscientific notion? Or an edict from Pentair's legal staff?

Now, I once did forget to rinse the last few drops of MA out of the measuring cup I use to dispense both MA and LC. The subsequent pour of LC into that cup definitely fizzled right up and produced some sort of gas. So that part of the narrative seems to be real...

*** Now for all you TFPers out there that are eavesdropping on this conversation, I was just kidding. DO wait a good while between doses of liquid chlorine and muriatic acid!! I always do! I swear!! And DON'T use the same measuring cup for both chlorine and acid. I never do that!! Wait... what?... Oh, right... My lawyer said to say that my lawyer didn't make me say that. Wait... what? Don't write that? Which part? Sheesh.

PS: here's another condition for you to consider: maybe don't inject acid after 30 minutes before end of pump run. I consider this myself in my scheduling. I don't want any acid entering the pool minutes before the pump stops. It's a long shot that doing so would cause any real issues, but I like the idea of my pool circulating for at least 30 minutes right after I dose anything, especially acid.

@Dirk Ha too funny. I needed that after the garage door incident just now. I don't know if we will ever resolve this question. But it sure gives us something to think about.
ALSO, @Jimrahbe brings up a very good point as well. We all know there are power issues with the IC-60/IpH combo. That makes about as much sense as anything else at this point.