How screwed am I?

[JJ_Tex]

So that local pest guy came out, looked at the cabinets plus pictures on my phone as well as downstairs. He said I do not have termites. Said it could be booklice, they have tiny white larvae. Probably some silverfish based on the live version of the photo I posted of the bugs on the drywall. I did also see a carpet beetle, I couldn’t remember the name but he knew it when I described it. He said they were just drawn to the water and the food stuff dr. Things like the booklice he said like the particle board, with all the glue and stuff holding the wood together.

Thats awesome that there are no termites. Did you ever get a fan going on the area?

 

[Mdragger88]

That’s great news! Hopefully your kitchen will be back together soon !

 

[jseyfert3]

Thats awesome that there are no termites. Did you ever get a fan going on the area?

Not yet...didn’t really want to get a fan going until I sprayed some bleach at least

 

[AUSpool]

Ooh, that looks nasty. But your studs and bottom plate still look good. I’ve used a copper based wood preserver for this type of pre rebuild treatment. Once you’ve treated that mould, and I would make a big deal of it, then rebuild. I would add noggins on your bottom plate between the stud. Raise the flooring level under the dishwasher to match the rest floor level and allow for fall so water falls forward. Its not commonly done but once bitten I would add some water proofing, particularly across the back.

Yeh I’ve been they and feel your pain. We had water egress from a storm but when we pulled back the flooring we found years of damage from leaking windows.

 

[jseyfert3]

I would add noggins on your bottom plate between the stud. Raise the flooring level under the dishwasher to match the rest floor level and allow for fall so water falls forward. Its not commonly done but once bitten I would add some water proofing, particularly across the back.

Noggins?

I don’t think I can raise the floor. I measured, the kitchen floor is a full 1/2” higher than the floor under the counter, and I could barely get the dishwasher out. But if I waterproof the three sides plus the sides of the hole where the water hose comes up from the basement, any future leaks would be directed down into the basement where they would not cause damage and be noticed fairly easily.

 

[AUSpool]

Noggins, normally found as horizontal spacers between the studs at about half way up the wall, two or more for taller walls. When you build a frame in situ we put a noggin top and bottom on the bottom plate and top plate to evenly space out the studs that cant be nailed from the top or bottom.

If you could get it out you should be able to raise the floor to existing. Most dishwashers can have their feet raised and lowered as required. You did raise them to get it out didn’t you?

 

[jseyfert3]

If you could get it out you should be able to raise the floor to existing. Most dishwashers can have their feet raised and lowered as required. You did raise them to get it out didn’t you?

The front feet raise, the back ones do not. The back is actually wheels, which are installed, but the manual states they can be removed for additional clearance if needed, though it makes it harder to install (at least somewhat). I think if the floor was raised to match existing you probably could barely get the dishwasher installed without wheels. Raising the back to cause any water to drain out the front? I doubt there's clearance.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Home Depot carries "Savogran" TSP in the red boxes.... in the paint section-- IF your state allows it. You might live in a state that doesn't allow it to be sold. Illinois and Wisconsin both are states that ban it in dish soaps... but who knows about "industrial uses". Many Ace Hardware stores carry it too, usually a different brand. No offense to the "greenies" but the TSP substitute is garbage for almost anything. I'd say use Oxyclean free instead of TSP substitute you absolutely can't get the TSP. (That is a beer brewing/cleaning tip if you didn't already know that. It's almost PBW.. if you also add TSP "substitute" it is...)

You probably don't want to drive to Iowa to get it....

The actual amount of phospate you'll put into the water supply with real TSP is inconsequential with what you are doing with it. So, I will redeem myself with the greenie comment that way. Don't throw it in oyur pool though, but if you did you'd be fine anyway because you do TFP.

Good deal on the termites. Otherwise the scope would have grown 10x. They don't know what silverfish are here on the left coast. They tend to live in wet environments and then seek out wet environments inside houses when the outdoor environments dry up, which in winter they kinda do because of the water freezing. My mother in the northwest Chicago suburbs has issues with them when it's dry.

Just keep ripping back the drywall until you are at least a foot past the last mold you see (this is because it has "arms" farther into the otherwise clean looking drywall) and clean up with at the very least bleach. And what you can't bleach, strong vinegar... TSP is a great idea if you can get it.

 

[Dirk]

Put in a drain pan. If you have access underneath, you can add a drain in the pan that will route water wherever you want. With your DW flooring under the level of the kitchen floor, you could try to find a pan that has a lip on all four sides, and cut down the front lip to match the kitchen floor level, or a three-sided lip and make a fourth lip in the front with caulk. Low enough to get the DW in, but high enough to drive water to your drain (also caulked to pan).

I've seen a DW floor lower than the kitchen floor before. It's a product of the original builder not raising the cabinets to kitchen floor height, or flooring added after the original build. It is what it is. Taking off the wheels is about all you can do.

EASTMAN 24.5 in. x 20.5 in. Dishwasher Pan 70486 - The Home Depot

The Eastman dishwasher pan is made of high-impact plastic with a high-strength injection molded design preventing it from cracking, rusting, or corroding. Its size will fit most standard dishwasher dimensions.

www.homedepot.com

 

[jseyfert3]

I could check in store, but TSP doesn't show up on Home Depot except for either a 6 pack of 1-lb bags or a 4 pack of 4-lb bags, available as ship to store or ship to home only. Could be they sell in store and not online, but that seems odd.

I do have sodium tripolyphosphate on hand, was using that to add phosphates back to dishwasher detergent when I lived in locations without water softeners. Not sure how that compares to TSP for this use, still not sure what TSP is for exactly when it comes to mold.

Also, the million dollar question: The drywall on the back side of the wall from the dishwasher has also gotten wet. No more than barely above the studs, but for probably a couple feet. Should I tear that out, and do I want to pull up the flooring on the back side of the wall which has bulged up from leaking water? I really don't want to...but should I? That's just a lot of work to fix finished drywall plus to tear up vinyl planks and re-lay them later on.

Update: As of last night I tore out sections of my under-sink cabinet and associated drywall.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

TSP raises the pH of the solution breaking down biofilms, oils, films and cell walls. This allows the bleach to better penetrate and kill the mold. The phosphates also act as a surfactant to lift stains. Buy it online from Amazon if you can.

 

[jseyfert3]

Many Ace Hardware stores carry it too, usually a different brand.

Looks like an Ace Hardware in a town I can detour through on my way home from work carries it.

@JoyfulNoise would I follow the box directions for mildew for mixing? (1 cup TSP in 3 quarts water with 1 quart bleach) Or something else?

 

[Andrew_D]

I don’t think I can raise the floor. I measured, the kitchen floor is a full 1/2” higher than the floor under the counter, and I could barely get the dishwasher out. But if I waterproof the three sides plus the sides of the hole where the water hose comes up from the basement, any future leaks would be directed down into the basement where they would not cause damage and be noticed fairly easily.

Put in a drain pan. If you have access underneath, you can add a drain in the pan that will route water wherever you want. With your DW flooring under the level of the kitchen floor, you could try to find a pan that has a lip on all four sides, and cut down the front lip to match the kitchen floor level, or a three-sided lip and make a fourth lip in the front with caulk. Low enough to get the DW in, but high enough to drive water to your drain (also caulked to pan).

I've seen a DW floor lower than the kitchen floor before. It's a product of the original builder not raising the cabinets to kitchen floor height, or flooring added after the original build. It is what it is. Taking off the wheels is about all you can do.

This is what I was going to suggest. Especially if the basement is unfinished, or you have some way to put a drain hose on the pan down to a bucket that can be checked every once in a while.

Also, the million dollar question: The drywall on the back side of the wall from the dishwasher has also gotten wet. No more than barely above the studs, but for probably a couple feet. Should I tear that out, and do I want to pull up the flooring on the back side of the wall which has bulged up from leaking water? I really don't want to...but should I? That's just a lot of work to fix finished drywall plus to tear up vinyl planks and re-lay them later on.

Honestly, I would try to dry it out first and see what it looks like. The backside of that drywall doesn't look too damp.

I had water in my basement twice. The first time (since it wasn't sewage), I ran dehumidifiers and hung dry-it bags and kept fans running. Was likely a month or more. The seems on my laminate (and it wasn't vinyl!) did eventually go back down.

The second time (also not sewage) was deeper and for a longer time since we were away. That time the laminate was wrecked. Pulled carpets and let them dry in the garage, using pallets between layers to allow airflow. Baseboards were ruined. Bottom 6 inches of drywall were very wet. Neighbour does drywall and he said "Don't touch them. Dry them out and see." And he was right! Didn't do any drywall work. No flooring and baseboards meant that we accelerated the basement re-paint a couple years though!

Andrew

 

[jseyfert3]

The second time (also not sewage) was deeper and for a longer time since we were away. That time the laminate was wrecked. Pulled carpets and let them dry in the garage, using pallets between layers to allow airflow. Baseboards were ruined. Bottom 6 inches of drywall were very wet. Neighbour does drywall and he said "Don't touch them. Dry them out and see." And he was right! Didn't do any drywall work. No flooring and baseboards meant that we accelerated the basement re-paint a couple years though!

If it was just water I'd totally agree. But based on all the mold, I suspect this has been leaking for a few months. I would expect there is mold under the flooring in the dining room on the other side of that wall, and that's what I'm most concerned about. I feel like at a minimum I need to pull the flooring in the dining room (carefully, so I can reuse) so I can inspect/treat the subfloor. Pulling the baseboards would also let me inspect the bottom of the drywall. Just wet is one thing, moldy is another.

 

[Andrew_D]

Just looked at the link for the drain pan posted above.

Google "bulkhead fitting". Drill hole in the center of the pan (or low side if it isn't level) and a bigger hole in the floor. (What a great excuse to buy a holesaw kit!) Screw a hose barb into the bulkhead fitting, pointing down into the basement. Hose to a bucket. Most of the bulkhead fittings I have used have a 1/4" or so tall head on them, which means water would have to be that deep before draining though. Look for shortest head possible. Or grind down the head as much as possible. You aren't going to have any pressure there.

Andrew

 

[Andrew_D]

If it was just water I'd totally agree. But based on all the mold, I suspect this has been leaking for a few months. I would expect there is mold under the flooring in the dining room on the other side of that wall, and that's what I'm most concerned about. I feel like at a minimum I need to pull the flooring in the dining room (carefully, so I can reuse) so I can inspect/treat the subfloor. Pulling the baseboards would also let me inspect the bottom of the drywall. Just wet is one thing, moldy is another.

True.

FWIW - When I pulled the laminate on the 2nd flood, there was no sign of mold from the earlier one.

But if relatively easy to pull up, it does provide peace of mind.

Andrew

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Having a pan draining to the basement is a great idea. I couldn't do that in the last house because it was finished underneath, but if yours isn't go for it. I did have a pan there, they were standard issue. I don't here in Arizona because it's on a concrete slab!

Take most of the drywall out. You could maybe just dry out the other side IF you don't see mold on it. But it's easy to replace and patch drywall, honestly. The flooring isn't as big of an issue with mold, but if the plywood delaminated like it seems to have from your description, you are done and you need to replace it.

You can do it, and you can take your time doing it too. You can get the kitchen side done first and then work on the living room side at a later time and be fine.

 

[Dirk]

I've had to make judgement calls like that before... how much to tear out. So anything easy and black comes out. Difficult and black if you want to do a good job. Really hard and black is the judgement call. Dried out well and treated might work. How will you know?

One word of caution, and this depends on the state you live in, I suppose. But... if mold takes hold years from now, and you've long-since sold the house, even if the mold was unrelated to this event, the next owners could come after you. If they can prove that you did the work yourself, and didn't do it properly (like by leaving damaged wood or sheet rock), then theoretically you could expose yourself. That's why my original advice was to rip out everything until you get to dry (unaffected) wood. Anything less is a potential risk to you and your family and the next family. "Potential" being the key word there, and something you have to decide for yourself. Risk being mold or liability. A "pro" would gut everything out. Possibly to drum up some work for himself, but also for the liability aspect.

So yah, taking out that subfloor is going to sting, but it's the correct fix, and it'll expose what's underneath, good or bad, which shouldn't be ignored.

Tip: can't quite tell how straight your lines are, but if you draw horizontal and vertical pencil lines on your sheetrock using a level, then saw on the lines, it makes cutting the replacement parts much easier. Same for floor, only use a square instead of a level.

 

[Newdude]

Pep talk time : You have long proved yourself as someone who doesn’t sweep things under the rug. You know what you need to do, as much as you wouldn’t have wanted this project....... especially because it’s a boring side quest with no WOW factor whilst being already busy. But the bottom line is until you prove where the mold stops by exposing 18 clean inches, the is mold has spread at least that far.

From there you can judgment call if sterilization will be good enough, but you won’t know until you’ve opened that can of worms.

And hey !! At least you have all us knuckleheads for moral support, right ??? We’ll listen and offer tips and throw rocks with you if need be !!

 

[scdaren]

Just remember that when your insurance goes up. My wife is an agent and has been working from home, so I get to hear all of her phone calls. The other day some dude wanted her to redo his whole policy and get quotes from a bunch of different companies because his current carrier raised his annual premium by $20.

After 30 mins I came out of my office holding a $20 bill to just get the guy to shut up. There is a reason I'm not in a customer facing position

My policy renewed in July right before my water damage claim. I *almost* changed insurers at that time to save $75, and I'm glad I didn't or I'd have the two insurers pointing fingers at each other. I'm fully expecting them to cancel my policy or send my rates through the roof when it renews again this July. It was already rising 20% year over year the past few years, from about $1000 in 2018 to $1400 in 2020.